What types of externalities invalidate the claim of "peaceful" in the context of method of protest?

[GoldenBoy89]

What happens if you're like the person in the video...were already well into the route, and then get blocked, and have a line of cars behind you and can't move?

I guess you just gotta sit there then. I mean at that point, what else could she do?

I take the Metrolink train to work a few times a week and it’s happened more than once where someone had the very unfortunate idea of unaliving themselves in front of the train I was riding. We had to sit there on the train for a couple hours before they cleaned up the mess, let us off and provided bus service to our destinations. Hundreds of people inconvenienced because one person made an incredibly selfish decision. That’s obviously not quite the same as being inconvenienced by a protest but i think you get my point.

Sometimes life be like that.

And note, the term peaceful means "free from disturbance", having to get stuck there and miss a day's work because of an entitled "man-bun" dude like the one in the video who dismissively says "pfft, oh, work!" (in a condescending tone) wouldn't be "peaceful" by the the true definition.

Looking at the broader context of what’s going on around me, it’s a blessing to only be slightly inconvenienced for a few hours while people are literally being taken away from their jobs to a detention facility when they were doing nothing wrong.

 

[Fantine]

Companies should allow telecommuting during the illegal military occupation of a sovereign state. The courts have ordered the dictator to return the Guard to its rightful leader.

 

[ozso]

This would be a big problem if there was only one single road in a city. Go a different route. That’s what I do when the streets backed up with traffic. Why would it be any different if the streets are backed up by protesters?

I was working in Seattle during CHAZ/CHOP and getting to work was a big problem.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I was working in Seattle during CHAZ/CHOP and getting to work was a big problem.

That sucks. How did you get around it?

 

[ozso]

That sucks. How did you get around it?

Had to take a difficult time consuming route. My shift started at 11PM. Can't imagine what it was like during rush hour.

 

[BPPLEE]

This would be a big problem if there was only one single road in a city. Go a different route. That’s what I do when the streets backed up with traffic. Why would it be any different if the streets are backed up by protesters?

It's not always an option. Sometimes you can't just turn around. I get stuck in traffic all the time because of wrecks and have no alternative but to wait until it's clear most of the time

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Looking at the broader context of what’s going on around me, it’s a blessing to only be slightly inconvenienced for a few hours while people are literally being taken away from their jobs to a detention facility when they were doing nothing wrong.

I would say missing a day's worth of pay is more than a slight inconvenience for the large percentage of people living paycheck to paycheck.

I've touched on it before, but isn't it somewhat counterproductive disrupt the lives of random people rather than the people who are actually making the policies they don't like?

What are they thinking is going to happen?, all of those people are going to say "well shucks, I guess we should just pressure our elected leaders to stop this policy to give these kids what they want so they'll stop blocking people"?

It seems like moves like this have the propensity to turn more people against their cause then bring people over to it.

At best, it's a strongarming tactic, at worst, it's just an excuse for people to hit the streets and get rowdy just so they can say they're "a part of something".


...and I still don't see the connection between blocking traffic for a bunch of random people, and achieving an end to ICE raids.

Much like I didn't see the connection between people supergluing their hand to the wall and an art gallery, and climate change policy.

 

[BCP1928]

It's not a big difference to someone who has to get to work on time or lose their job. Neither had a permit to block traffic. Both protests were illegal.

Side note: If a person is likely to be fired for such a thing (and I know it happens) then she is being screwed over, and that's another and different problem.

 

[BCP1928]

I would say missing a day's worth of pay is more than a slight inconvenience for the large percentage of people living paycheck to paycheck.

The existence of such people is at least part of what is being protested.

I've touched on it before, but isn't it somewhat counterproductive disrupt the lives of random people rather than the people who are actually making the policies they don't like?

What are they thinking is going to happen?, all of those people are going to say "well shucks, I guess we should just pressure our elected leaders to stop this policy to give these kids what they want so they'll stop blocking people"?

It seems like moves like this have the propensity to turn more people against their cause then bring people over to it.

At best, it's a strongarming tactic, at worst, it's just an excuse for people to hit the streets and get rowdy just so they can say they're "a part of something".


...and I still don't see the connection between blocking traffic for a bunch of random people, and achieving an end to ICE raids.

Much like I didn't see the connection between people supergluing their hand to the wall and an art gallery, and climate change policy.

If someone is protesting Trump's policy, it can only be for self-serivng reasons, right?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The existence of such people is at least part of what is being protested.

If someone is protesting Trump's policy, it can only be for self-serivng reasons, right?

It doesn't matter what their reasons are...

How does an act of disruptive randomness against "no specific people in particular", equate to achieving the policy outcome they're looking for?

 

[BCP1928]

It doesn't matter what their reasons are...

How does an act of disruptive randomness against "no specific people in particular", equate to achieving the policy outcome they're looking for?

Because it's considered collateral damage, not the objective. But your whole line of argument seems to be based on the assumption that the LA protest was an organized, coordinated effort on the part of the bogeyman left.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Because it's considered collateral damage, not the objective. But your whole line of argument seems to be based on the assumption that the LA protest was an organized, coordinated effort on the part of the bogeyman left.

Actually quite the opposite -- organization, coordination, and actual planning would've meant a much more coherent approach to winning people over and conveying a unified message.

...as opposed to the kind of stuff we see out there, which seems to be a lot of randomness and "protesting for the sake of protest".

Even the NY Times has reported on the fact that it's morphed into just a protest-blob in the name of "<insert any left-wing cause here>"

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/12/us/protests-immigration-palestinian.html

Voices at the demonstrations are often a mix that includes calls for more explicit support for racial justice, Palestinian freedom and socialist politics.

Local chapters of the Party for Socialism and Liberation, a Communist Party offshoot of the Workers World Party, have also played a leading role, working with local leftist groups to post information about new demonstrations from California to Maine.

The group’s concerns are among the mélange of causes animating protests that were born out of workplace raids to round up illegal immigrants. Palestinian supporters have shown up at protests in Chicago, New York and elsewhere. When the St. Louis march ended on Wednesday, various groups took the opportunity to rally support for queer rights, Black Lives Matter and tornado relief and cleanup efforts.

The St. Louis march was promoted on social media by the Party for Socialism and Liberation, Voices for Palestine Network, Black Men Build St. Louis and the Ecosocialist Green Party.

And the Times goes on to note the challenges with that:
The presence of many different causes can dilute the message of any one protest — and risks appearing to general observers like a gathering of far-left activists.

 

[BCP1928]

Actually quite the opposite -- organization, coordination, and actual planning would've meant a much more coherent approach to winning people over and conveying a unified message.

...as opposed to the kind of stuff we see out there, which seems to be a lot of randomness and "protesting for the sake of protest".

Even the NY Times has reported on the fact that it's morphed into just a protest-blob in the name of "<insert any left-wing cause here>"

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/12/us/protests-immigration-palestinian.html

Voices at the demonstrations are often a mix that includes calls for more explicit support for racial justice, Palestinian freedom and socialist politics.

Local chapters of the Party for Socialism and Liberation, a Communist Party offshoot of the Workers World Party, have also played a leading role, working with local leftist groups to post information about new demonstrations from California to Maine.

The group’s concerns are among the mélange of causes animating protests that were born out of workplace raids to round up illegal immigrants. Palestinian supporters have shown up at protests in Chicago, New York and elsewhere. When the St. Louis march ended on Wednesday, various groups took the opportunity to rally support for queer rights, Black Lives Matter and tornado relief and cleanup efforts.

The St. Louis march was promoted on social media by the Party for Socialism and Liberation, Voices for Palestine Network, Black Men Build St. Louis and the Ecosocialist Green Party.

And the Times goes on to note the challenges with that:
The presence of many different causes can dilute the message of any one protest — and risks appearing to general observers like a gathering of far-left activists.

So it's unplanned ideological unity. Got it.

 

[durangodawood]

....Much like I didn't see the connection between people supergluing their hand to the wall and an art gallery, and climate change policy.

Probably exposure.

No one will even notice, let alone report on, you walking around with a sign in front of the museum. But get out the glue and youve made a scene people find interesting. Then you can say youre super upset about climate change and someones heard you.

 

[probinson]

You are equating....

Protestes. I am equating two different protests. One of which you support, one of which you don't.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Hmmm...you have a bunch of dishonesty and lies by Republicans and right wing media. The protests were 90% peaceful with a few agitators and who knows whether the agitators were on the side of the protesters or whether they were hired by the right to start a commotion? As to the original question we have historic parameters on peaceful protests established by people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi. And peaceful protest worked, not quickly, but it worked. Personally I think the reason why they worked was that the real bad guys grew impatient and became so aggressive and vicious that the countries saw them in all of their moral ugliness.

Let's say that only 1% of the protesters were violent agitators. That 1% causes 90% of the damages. But even if we applied that 1% to conservatives, you will still not find a single situation where mobs of conservatives gathered for a peaceful assembly to protest anything that devolved into national violence, thuggery, and looting like that seen with ANTIFA, BLM, and the current anti-ICE movement that originated in LA.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

So it's unplanned ideological unity. Got it.

What do ICE raids, gay rights, socialist activism, climate activism, BLM, and voices for Palestine have in common, apart from the the aspect of being opposed to Trump?

Do you feel it was actually planned then?

You had made this comment:
"But your whole line of argument seems to be based on the assumption that the LA protest was an organized, coordinated effort on the part of the bogeyman left."
(implying that I was perhaps buying into some sort of conspiracy theory about the origins of the protest being "planned")

I said "no quite the opposite, it clearly lacked coherent planning"

And now it appears you have a critique about me saying that.


So is it wrong to say it was planned?, or wrong to say it lacked planning?

which is it?

 

[probinson]

If the truckers were causing the cost of business, it wasn't a peaceful protest.

What about the protestors blocking traffic so people can't get to work? Is that not the cost of business? Those people can not weather the impact nearly as well as multi-billion dollar corporations. For some people, a missed day of work is incredibly devastating to their finances.

It was coercive, and it's a question as to whether that is also a legitimate form of protest.

The truckers' protest was not anywhere nearly as coercive as the foolish, science-poor vaccine mandates they were demonstrating against.

Whatever the case, that kind of protest leads to violence, which has often occurred (think Harland County War). People stopping traffic or preventing scabs from crossing a picket line are a different form of protest than those holding signs, communicating ideas, and accepting the arrest and charge for unlawful gathering or whatever.

So should I safely assume that you are opposed to any protest that blocks traffic?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Probably exposure.

No one will even notice, let alone report on, you walking around with a sign in front of the museum. But get out the glue and youve made a scene people find interesting. Then you can say youre super upset about climate change and someones heard you.

I have heard some of them use that rationalization before, the "we're raising awareness and making people notice an issue".

But in the age of the smartphone where people have a 24/7 newsfeed in their pocket at all times, I don't know that rationalization holds much water anymore.

Was there really anyone saying "Gee, I hadn't heard of climate change before the kid with the orange power showed up to disrupt the snooker championships, I'm glad he drew attention to this issue otherwise we never would've heard about climate change"?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Local chapters of the Party for Socialism and Liberation, a Communist Party offshoot of the Workers World Party, have also played a leading role, working with local leftist groups to post information about new demonstrations from California to Maine.

Yes, and that presence, for me, is not a comforting thought. Mexican flags also are not comforting to see either, when they're on U.S. soil.