How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[boughtwithaprice]

Broughtwithaprice the seduction of the mind can be many things. Both physical and spiritually. Both sexually and spiritually both can be heavenly bliss and on the other hand both can lead to the upmost corruption. As to love and lust when it comes to the bed chamber it seems to me that both love and lust just merge into one. It just be how the man be. Perhaps it is why the union of marriage and the bed chamber are sanctified and protected in that regard by holy scripture. The written word and oral dictation are just as powerful in the seduction of the mind be that for good or evil.. In the case of our first parents they were seduced and beguiled by the spoken word of the serpent. And ye shall be as God and rest is now our reality . Yes the battle in the minds of humanity does continue. As to how one thinks is how one acts. Sometimes. But not always the devil is very deceptive in many ways. View attachment 366081You then say we are responsible for the light God gives us. He tells us to keep searching . Broughtwithaprice what does that mean ? I am not sure. Kathleen

God says you will seek me and you will find me when you search with all of your heart. The worst place to be in is when we think that we know God completely. There is always more to learn and we have to accept that our view may be wrong.
There are 2000 years of Church history and many issues have been argued and discussed during that time. If some one tells you something that sounds good, check the history. It may have been covered in the past and found to be false
You can also look around your life. God tells us to love our enemies. Who are yours and why does God want you to love them? If you run from them, do you ever notice that the same types of people keep showing up in your life? God is trying to tell you something. Stop and listen

Earth is not our home. It is our battleground on the way to heaven. Don’t get attached to what is here. Learn from it

 

[Kathleen30]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Jesus founded one Church, I do not consider that as "audacious." As I have explained before, non-Catholic Christians are said to simply lack the "fullness of the faith." They are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church certainly be a denomination. There be varying denominations with different beliefs within the Roman Catholic Church itself. Just ans any other Christian denomination has varying branches. But Valletta when you mention the church. The church meaning the people of God they be spread out amongst the entirety of Christianity not just to one particular Christian faith. When you say of other Christian denominations that they are lacking the fullness of faith as you state. Do remember It is Christ that is the author and the finisher of our faith. That meaning of every Christian denomination and not only yours . Most Christian denominations understand that. Do remember St Peter was a mere pebble not the Rock . It was the Rock that the Church was built upon.. That Rock being Jesus Christ. We not be the children of lesser faith nor of a lesser God.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The Roman Catholic Church certainly be a denomination. There be varying denominations with different beliefs within the Roman Catholic Church itself. Just ans any other Christian denomination has varying branches. But Valletta when you mention the church. The church meaning the people of God they be spread out amongst the entirety of Christianity not just to one particular Christian faith. When you say of other Christian denominations that they are lacking the fullness of faith as you state. Do remember It is Christ that is the author and the finisher of our faith. That meaning of every Christian denomination and not only yours . Most Christian denominations understand that. Do remember St Peter was a mere pebble not the Rock . It was the Rock that the Church was built upon.. That Rock being Jesus Christ. We not be the children of lesser faith nor of a lesser God.

The fact is that God loves all people and, according to Catholic Catechism, there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die. His in the ultimate sacrifice of love, but not everyone accepts His love. God wants those that love Him to love Him freely, because if love is not free then it is not love.
It greatly saddens God when His love is rejected as evidenced by His agony in the Garden where His sweat was as great drops of blood. He was not anxious about crucifixion, a fate He gladly endures for those He loves. His anxiety was amplified in that the Father wanted Him to endure it even for those that reject Him.
As humans, we know that unrequited love is the most painful. Imagine what it would be like for God, then you might understand
God loves all people that turn to Him in faith, and He greatly wants them to grow in grace. We show love for Him when we take the grace we have been given and are willing to grow in grace and become poor in spirt
To be poor in spirit is to know that we have some knowledge of God, but there is no way that we have enough. We examine our knowledge and are willing to learn new things and admit mistakes.
When the big rock, little rock argument is used, it sounds good and makes sense, but on closer inspection, it is not based on truth.
Jesus spoke in Aramaic, a language that does not have gender distinctions in words. The Gospels were written in Greek, which is an engendered language. The word, Petra, is feminine. Peter, being a man, could not have been given a girl’s name by Jesus, so Petra was masculinized to Petros. If Jesus had meant little
rock, He would have used lithos instead
The Church is built on Peter, and the Catholic Church recognizes all baptized Christians as part of the Church. Each is responsible for the light they have been given.
God wants all people to have the benefits of the grace He left with His Church, but not all accept them. This is just sad, but Jesus says, Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing.
There are not children of a lesser God, but there are children of lesser knowledge, and as humans, we sometimes get attitudes and think we know everything and refuse to learn. If we refuse to learn, then we are the people that say, I am rich, am made wealthy and have need of nothing, yet don’t realize that we are poor, and God calls us to be poor in spirit. God tells us what will happen if we continue to refuse Him


14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. 20 Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me
21 To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

 

[BobRyan]

What we do not find is a purgatory kind of punishment where we somehow pay for our sins after we die.
There is no indulgence system in the Bible
And If I need forgiveness of sins today -- I cannot ask a Christian friend to pay my debt of venial sin.

The three Catholic concepts which you mention are based on scripture.

I am interested to see where scripture states the above.

Purgatory is based on the purging fire we receive prior to entering heaven. This is found in 1 Corinthians 3

first of all -- 1 Cor 3 is not about dying and having sins removed after one dies.
second - even the Catholic church does not teach that burning someone who is alive today - purges them of sin

1 Cor 3 says the teaching of the person is purged away with fire -
Purgatory says the PERSON is burned with fire/punishment

13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

it is the work - the teaching of the man that is removed

context determines meaning. Vs 13 is the middle of a sentence

1 Cor 3
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

Indulgences are based on the power of binding and loosing which is given to Peter when Jesus hands him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus calls Peter "satan" in that chapter.
That is the chapter where Peter shows the tendency to directly reject the teaching of Christ in his response to Christ of the form "No Lord, may it never be".

Jesus said in that chapter (Matt 16) "you are pebble but on this foundation stone I will build My church"

Matt 7 says that the firm foundation stone is the Word of Christ - accepting that word.

It is a falacy to say that indulgences forgive sins or allow sins secondary to payment

I think we agree on that point

An indulgence asks Peter to use his authority of loosing to relieve a soul of temporal punishment secondary to God’s justice

1. There is not one example of anyone asking Peter for such a thing before he died or after he died - in scripture.

, not to save from damnation which can only be granted by God’s mercy.

That is the only kind of forgiveness that the Bible knows about - "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 - the second death, the final death

Matthew 16:

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

"Thou art pebble - Petros"
"On this foundation-stone - Petra" I will build my church

Jesus is contrasting pebble with foundation stone.

1 Cor 3:11 "No other PETRA can anyone lay - other than Christ"

Intercessory prayer is based on James 5: 16-20 and 1 John: 5:16 as well as 1 Tim 2:1-4

I don't think anyone is questioning "intercessory prayer"
what is being questioned is the notion that anyone ever went to Peter even once in all the NT and said "Peter please forgive me of my sin"

There is one mediator

true.

1 Tim 2 says it is Christ alone.

we can all pray for each other.

I think we all agree on that point

 

[Valletta]

Most Christian denominations understand that. Do remember St Peter was a mere pebble not the Rock . It was the Rock that the Church was built upon.. That Rock being Jesus Christ. We not be the children of lesser faith nor of a lesser God.

The original name that Jesus renamed Simon as was "Kepha," which is preserved in Biblical text. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Kepha is transliterated in "Cephas." Kepha means "Rock" in Aramaic. Jesus was paralleling words in Isaiah 22 when he renamed Simon as Rock and gave him the key to the kingdom. If you study Isaiah the King gives the keys to the kingdom to His prime minister as a sign of authority for when the king is absent. Unfortunately many are not as familiar with the Old Testament as Jews of the day.

 

[BobRyan]

Our Lady can also make intercessory prayer as she is eternally joined to Jesus in the hypostatic union.

Jesus is fully God and fully human - this is hypostatic union of two natures.

May never had such a thing as far as we find in scripture. She was never fully God and this is true to this very day.

She is not apart from Jesus to receive prayer, but is with Him.

Not one NT text says to pray to Mary either before her death or after.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Is actually a meditation on Luke 1:28 and
Luke 1:42

While it is true that the Angel says that to Mary in Luke 1 -- it is not true that any human does it in all of the NT
What is more Mary calls Jesus her "savior" -- from sin.

Bob, I believe that you sincerely base your interpretation on scripture,

True. I do not say any of this as though I wrote the text of scripture.
I am just pointing out the sola-scriptura response that many non-Catholics have to certain Catholic teaching.

Even the Catholic church teaches that some doctrines are based on tradition (apostolic tradition) while others come from scripture.

7 Specific Church Traditions

When Protestants claim that ‘Tradition’ is too vague for the Church to use as an authority, here are seven rejoinders that Catholics can provide.

www.catholic.com

This explains why we have certain things not at all found in scripture

It is no wonder then that those 7 things are often referenced by non-Catholics as examples of tradition.

it is self evident that the Catholic Church bases her interpretation on scripture also.

I agree that the Catholic church has some doctrine that comes from scripture alone - but other things like indulgences for doing this or that, number of days in purgatory, a place called purgatory at all etc -- cannot be found in the Bible at all

 

[BobRyan]

You may disagree with the interpretation, and I believe that it has to come down to ecclesial authority as to who is right, but you cannot say that the Catholic interpretation is unbiblical

I don't think I have used that term. But what I have said is that certain doctrines have not one example of them found in the Bible.
1. No one prays to the dead in the Bible outside of a parable (similar to no trees go out to elect a king in the Bible outside of a parable)
2. No one talks about "earning an indulgence" in the Bible.
3. No one asks Peter to forgive their sin in the Bible.
4. No one calls Mary "the one wiser than God, stronger than God, or mother of God" in the Bible
5. Mary calls Jesus her savior - but the Catholic church says Mary had no sin, was sinless
6. No one prays to Mary in the Bible
7. Jesus used the words "on the contrary" when someone tries to exalt the maternal connection to Jesus. We never see Catholic members giving that same response.
8. No mention at all of someone spending "X number of days in some place called Purgatory" in all of scripture
9. No mention of earning an indulgence in all of scripture

It is false and misleading to say that the Catholic Church is unbiblical or evil.

I think if you will check my posts - I never use such term

BTW - I do appreciate your method of comparing notes on this topic. You are doing something not often seen in religious discussions.

 

[BobRyan]

Do remember It is Christ that is the author and the finisher of our faith. That meaning of every Christian denomination and not only yours . Most Christian denominations understand that. Do remember St Peter was a mere pebble not the Rock . It was the Rock that the Church was built upon.. That Rock being Jesus Christ. We not be the children of lesser faith nor of a lesser God.

Amen

1 Cor 3:11 "no other Petra can anyone lay other than Christ" -- no other foundation.

 

[Jerry N.]

We talk about this frequently in the singles forum. Most people come to church and go home in America. Church sponsored events may allow some level of socialization. But the majority occurs in bible study, sunday school and serving. The social component is separate that’s why many people have difficulty meeting suitors in that setting. They’re looking elsewhere and have church in a box and that’s pretty common.

The only dinners I can recall as an adult were served during an alpha course for participants, a yearly church event, or the monthly one we had in missionary prep. College students were given a meal when they attended small group and we had breakfast treats at a weekly bible study.

When I attended a synagogue we dined together weekly as a congregation. That was true in conservative settings and liberal ones as well. Newcomers were paired with members for services. You’d sit with the same people and they’d answer questions and help you get acclimated to the synagogue. We had periodic outings for new members and meals within the homes for shabbat and holidays. A family would invite us over to experience it in the presence of more mature believers. There were monthly events for families and larger ones for the community frequently. And we didn’t pay for our food. Weekly meals were sponsored the bar or bat mitzvah and catered and I’ve never eaten better.

That’s why I struggled when I went to church. There’s nothing comparable in christianity. I realized I’d have to create my own traditions to have the same and that‘s what we’re doing. But it’s nice to hear stories like yours. Our culture is very secular and things like that are less appealing to some or we’re too busy to get involved.

~bella

It sounds like you have gone through quite the spiritual journey. I really understand “creating your own traditions,” because I was never really comfortable until I became a Messianic Christian. As I mentioned in a previous post, we had a congregation much closer to us several years ago. I miss the fellowship.

 

[bèlla]

It sounds like you have gone through quite the spiritual journey. I really understand “creating your own traditions,” because I was never really comfortable until I became a Messianic Christian. As I mentioned in a previous post, we had a congregation much closer to us several years ago. I miss the fellowship.

I love to build and no one told me I was good at it until I exceeded the mark set by my loved ones. When my daughter went well beyond the experiences my loved ones knew they had to acknowledge my prowess. They didn’t want to at first because of tradition until I came home in my thirties and established a new standard.

I’ve dealt with my share of naysayers but my advice remains the same. Trust the Lord. He’s greater than your experiences and circumstances. Submit your life to Him and let Him exalt you.

~bella

 

[Kathleen30]

The fact is that God loves all people and, according to Catholic Catechism, there is not one soul for whom Christ did not suffer and die. His in the ultimate sacrifice of love, but not everyone accepts His love. God wants those that love Him to love Him freely, because if love is not free then it is not love.
It greatly saddens God when His love is rejected as evidenced by His agony in the Garden where His sweat was as great drops of blood. He was not anxious about crucifixion, a fate He gladly endures for those He loves. His anxiety was amplified in that the Father wanted Him to endure it even for those that reject Him.
As humans, we know that unrequited love is the most painful. Imagine what it would be like for God, then you might understand
God loves all people that turn to Him in faith, and He greatly wants them to grow in grace. We show love for Him when we take the grace we have been given and are willing to grow in grace and become poor in spirt
To be poor in spirit is to know that we have some knowledge of God, but there is no way that we have enough. We examine our knowledge and are willing to learn new things and admit mistakes.
When the big rock, little rock argument is used, it sounds good and makes sense, but on closer inspection, it is not based on truth.
Jesus spoke in Aramaic, a language that does not have gender distinctions in words. The Gospels were written in Greek, which is an engendered language. The word, Petra, is feminine. Peter, being a man, could not have been given a girl’s name by Jesus, so Petra was masculinized to Petros. If Jesus had meant little
rock, He would have used lithos instead
The Church is built on Peter, and the Catholic Church recognizes all baptized Christians as part of the Church. Each is responsible for the light they have been given.
God wants all people to have the benefits of the grace He left with His Church, but not all accept them. This is just sad, but Jesus says, Father forgive them, they do not know what they are doing.
There are not children of a lesser God, but there are children of lesser knowledge, and as humans, we sometimes get attitudes and think we know everything and refuse to learn. If we refuse to learn, then we are the people that say, I am rich, am made wealthy and have need of nothing, yet don’t realize that we are poor, and God calls us to be poor in spirit. God tells us what will happen if we continue to refuse Him


14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. 20 Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me
21 To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Broughtwithaprice and Valletta. Well I am no Aramaic or Greek scholar but one thing is certain that Christ certainly spoke both Aramaic and Greek. Greek was the accepted universal language of the time in what language did the Roman centurion speak ? when he enquired of ailing servant And what of when questioned by pilot? What language were they speaking ? Paul being Jew but also be a Roman citizen knew the Greek and no doubt Latin also

your claim from your sources is that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. A language that does not have gender qualities in that language whereas in the Greek it does have a engendered language. Your claim is that Petra is feminine so was masculineized to Petros so you say the pebble could not be Peter but that Peter be the Rock. I will check later. But if what say be true and Peter be the Rock

Than we have glaring contradiction in the Bible for God and Christ are always reverenced as the Rock . As stated throughout the Bible. Are you saying that Peter and his successors are like God here upon earth ?

Broughtatgreatprice and Valletta do you sing ( on Christ this solid Rock I stand ) in your congregation? I say no more until I check the reliability of your Greek exegesis'. Yours Kathleen

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church is not a denomination.

We differ on that point

Jesus founded one Church

agreed

Paul predicted errors would come in " after my departure"

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Paul even predicted the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock (PETRA) was Christ

1 Cor 3:11 11 For no man can lay a foundation (Petra) other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Not "Peter and Christ"
Not "Christ and Peter"

The text is clear

"on Christ the solid Rock I stand - all other ground - is sinking sand"

=======================================
Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: (PETRA) 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock (PETRA).

 

[Valletta]

Broughtwithaprice and Valletta. Well I am no Aramaic or Greek scholar but one thing is certain that Christ certainly spoke both Aramaic and Greek. Greek was the accepted universal language of the time in what language did the Roman centurion speak ? when he enquired of ailing servant And what of when questioned by pilot? What language were they speaking ? Paul being Jew but also be a Roman citizen knew the Greek and no doubt Latin also View attachment 366109your claim from your sources is that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. A language that does not have gender qualities in that language whereas in the Greek it does have a engendered language. Your claim is that Petra is feminine so was masculineized to Petros so you say the pebble could not be Peter but that Peter be the Rock. I will check later. But if what say be true and Peter be the Rock View attachment 366111Than we have glaring contradiction in the Bible for God and Christ are always reverenced as the Rock . As stated throughout the Bible. Are you saying that Peter and his successors are like God here upon earth ? View attachment 366112View attachment 366114View attachment 366115Broughtatgreatprice and Valletta do you sing ( on Christ this solid Rock I stand ) in your congregation? I say no more until I check the reliability of your Greek exegesis'. Yours Kathleen

No, what I am saying is that the original Aramaic name is preserved within the mostly Koine Greek text.

We differ on that point

agreed

Paul predicted errors would come in " after my departure"

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Paul even predicted the "falling away" in 2 Thess 2.

Yes, the falling away did occur.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Broughtwithaprice and Valletta. Well I am no Aramaic or Greek scholar but one thing is certain that Christ certainly spoke both Aramaic and Greek. Greek was the accepted universal language of the time in what language did the Roman centurion speak ? when he enquired of ailing servant And what of when questioned by pilot? What language were they speaking ? Paul being Jew but also be a Roman citizen knew the Greek and no doubt Latin also View attachment 366109your claim from your sources is that Jesus spoke in Aramaic. A language that does not have gender qualities in that language whereas in the Greek it does have an engendered language. Your claim is that Petra is feminine so was masculineized to Petros so you say the pebble could not be Peter but that Peter be the Rock. I will check later. But if what say be true and Peter be the Rock View attachment 366111Than we have glaring contradiction in the Bible for God and Christ are always reverenced as the Rock . As stated throughout the Bible. Are you saying that Peter and his successors are like God here upon earth ? View attachment 366112View attachment 366114View attachment 366115Broughtatgreatprice and Valletta do you sing ( on Christ this solid Rock I stand ) in your congregation? I say no more until I check the reliability of your Greek exegesis'. Yours Kathleen

The Petra/Petros explanation has been debunked. Any one that uses it is misinformed and spreading misinformation. Peter is an apostle, and he is the chief Apostle. Apostle is one who is sent or an ambassador.
He carries the official authority of the king, yet we know that he is not the king himself. The Pope is the official head of the Church representing Christ as His Vicar. He is directly protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirt at the Promise of Jesus Christ.
The Pope retains his humanity and his capacity for sin, as he is infallible not impeccable. He is Christ’s representative, the Vicar of Christ, not Christ Himself. As such, we owe him holy obedience, not blind devotion or cult of personality.

This can be best understood when we see that God rules a kingdom, not a democracy or council. A kingdom has a hierarchy with rank and order, not an egalitarian mishmash of competing doctrines and spontaneous ideas
Scripture says that we are not all the same. We have our own spiritual gifts, and we are all part of the Body of Christ. A body has eyes, ears, hands, feet, mouth, tongue and modest parts. Paul tells us not to say because we are not the same then we are not part of the body.
Scripture says that there is rank order in the body of Christ. In Ephesians 4 we read


11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:


In scripture, the chief interpreters are the Apostles, which also interpret to be the Bishops, with the office or “chair” of Peter being the chief.
An office of Apostle is passed on to succeeding generations by the laying on of hands by another Apostle. We call this Apostolic succession
Apostles are to be given holy obedience. They can be challenged when we believe them to be in error, yet their office is not to be disgraced, as they are God’s anointed. We have the example of Saul in the Old Testament to show that God’s anointed can act in a evil manner, yet we are to maintain the humility of David regarding Saul, when he said I cannot lift my hand against God’s anointed

People will disagree and deny this interpretation, yet we can clearly see that Catholic Church structure is based on scripture. The only thing that is in opposition to the Catholic Church is another person’s interpretation and not scripture itself Who am I to follow? Another man or woman’s words? Or scripture ?

I have been going back and forth with my friend Bob Ryan. He disagrees with Catholic doctrine and believes that his interpretation is superior.
How can I oppose him? I am not an apostle, a teacher, a prophet or doctor of the Church. I am not even ordained.
I can tell that he holds his position for his genuine thoughts on scripture, yet he does not see things my way. He believes that scripture is self evident and if people will just read scripture they will come to his conclusions
I used to think that way and if I subjected myself completely to scripture, we would have a unified Christian faith and the truth would win out
I was born Catholic, but I fell into sin and blamed my sin on the Church and set out to prove her wrong. I was so convinced that I was right that I left the Church and began searching for truth for almost twenty years. I came home to the Catholic Church here in Christian forums, as they showed me that her teachings are not unbiblical as I once believed. I came home but was still not ready. I spent another sixteen years trying to argue against some teachings that I believed to be in error.
It was in 2019 that I submitted to the full authority of God’s Church. I repented of my sin and received the full and efficacious grace of God. To paraphrase John 9:25, if the Catholic Church be evil, I know not, what I do know is that I was blind and now I see.
As a Protestant, despite my profession of Christ as my savior and belief in His atonement, I was still beset with mortal sin that I did not believe I could stop. It was not becoming Catholic that stopped my sin, rather the knowledge of the truth of the Catholic faith and my submitting my body fully to her authority that the sin that had so easily beset me was gone. God’s grace flows through the sacraments and I can now eat the same flesh and blood of my savior that he gave to His Apostles at the Last Supper. I am still in awe today

For those of you that know of Christ and take His name, I can only tell you to press on. Follow the light that God has given you, and don’t let others hold you back. Follow where God leads. I liked to hear the attitude of one girl here when she said that she did not give a whip about what others thought of her, she will follow Jesus. Keep that attitude
Don’t be satisfied with what you have. There is 2000 years of Church history, keep looking, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is who was, is now, and is to come, the Almighty
Jesus be praised forever

 

[Kathleen30]

No, what I am saying is that the original Aramaic name is preserved within the mostly Koine Greek text.

Yes, the falling away did occur.

The Petra/Petros explanation has been debunked. Any one that uses it is misinformed and spreading misinformation. Peter is an apostle, and he is the chief Apostle. Apostle is one who is sent or an ambassador.
He carries the official authority of the king, yet we know that he is not the king himself. The Pope is the official head of the Church representing Christ as His Vicar. He is directly protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirt at the Promise of Jesus Christ.
The Pope retains his humanity and his capacity for sin, as he is infallible not impeccable. He is Christ’s representative, the Vicar of Christ, not Christ Himself. As such, we owe him holy obedience, not blind devotion or cult of personality.

This can be best understood when we see that God rules a kingdom, not a democracy or council. A kingdom has a hierarchy with rank and order, not an egalitarian mishmash of competing doctrines and spontaneous ideas
Scripture says that we are not all the same. We have our own spiritual gifts, and we are all part of the Body of Christ. A body has eyes, ears, hands, feet, mouth, tongue and modest parts. Paul tells us not to say because we are not the same then we are not part of the body.
Scripture says that there is rank order in the body of Christ. In Ephesians 4 we read


11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:


In scripture, the chief interpreters are the Apostles, which also interpret to be the Bishops, with the office or “chair” of Peter being the chief.
An office of Apostle is passed on to succeeding generations by the laying on of hands by another Apostle. We call this Apostolic succession
Apostles are to be given holy obedience. They can be challenged when we believe them to be in error, yet their office is not to be disgraced, as they are God’s anointed. We have the example of Saul in the Old Testament to show that God’s anointed can act in a evil manner, yet we are to maintain the humility of David regarding Saul, when he said I cannot lift my hand against God’s anointed

People will disagree and deny this interpretation, yet we can clearly see that Catholic Church structure is based on scripture. The only thing that is in opposition to the Catholic Church is another person’s interpretation and not scripture itself Who am I to follow? Another man or woman’s words? Or scripture ?

I have been going back and forth with my friend Bob Ryan. He disagrees with Catholic doctrine and believes that his interpretation is superior.
How can I oppose him? I am not an apostle, a teacher, a prophet or doctor of the Church. I am not even ordained.
I can tell that he holds his position for his genuine thoughts on scripture, yet he does not see things my way. He believes that scripture is self evident and if people will just read scripture they will come to his conclusions
I used to think that way and if I subjected myself completely to scripture, we would have a unified Christian faith and the truth would win out
I was born Catholic, but I fell into sin and blamed my sin on the Church and set out to prove her wrong. I was so convinced that I was right that I left the Church and began searching for truth for almost twenty years. I came home to the Catholic Church here in Christian forums, as they showed me that her teachings are not unbiblical as I once believed. I came home but was still not ready. I spent another sixteen years trying to argue against some teachings that I believed to be in error.
It was in 2019 that I submitted to the full authority of God’s Church. I repented of my sin and received the full and efficacious grace of God. To paraphrase John 9:25, if the Catholic Church be evil, I know not, what I do know is that I was blind and now I see.
As a Protestant, despite my profession of Christ as my savior and belief in His atonement, I was still beset with mortal sin that I did not believe I could stop. It was not becoming Catholic that stopped my sin, rather the knowledge of the truth of the Catholic faith and my submitting my body fully to her authority that the sin that had so easily beset me was gone. God’s grace flows through the sacraments and I can now eat the same flesh and blood of my savior that he gave to His Apostles at the Last Supper. I am still in awe today

For those of you that know of Christ and take His name, I can only tell you to press on. Follow the light that God has given you, and don’t let others hold you back. Follow where God leads. I liked to hear the attitude of one girl here when she said that she did not give a whip about what others thought of her, she will follow Jesus. Keep that attitude
Don’t be satisfied with what you have. There is 2000 years of Church history, keep looking, and Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is who was, is now, and is to come, the Almighty
Jesus be praised forever

Broughtwithgreatprice and Veletta I have checked a number of dictionaries. It seems your claim be correct. The Begal Gnomen says ( The role elsewhere signifies a stone. But in the case of Simon, a rock. It was not fitting that such a man should be called with a feminine termination as expressed in the Syriac by the noun, kepha. ) I guess it comes down to whom we view the second rock be referring too. From a biblical viewpoint we say Jesus Christ with all the biblical references pointing to that as referenced in my post 111. And even better still better explained in Bobryans post 113. . It is also noted by the apostle Peter in 1st Peter 2:5 that we all all living stones within the house of the God which would make a whole lot more sense as the entire body of Christ founded upon the Rock of Christ than just a select group bishops or popes being built upon this Rock which is of a certainty to be Jesus Christ.

As to your conversion to Roman Catholicism Broughtwithaprice Gods people be everywhere I be happy for you ❤️ As to the whippings I not know : ) I can only think of a ancient song long before me called the whip it whip it good. God Bless. Kathleen

 

[Jerry N.]

I love to build and no one told me I was good at it until I exceeded the mark set by my loved ones. When my daughter went well beyond the experiences my loved ones knew they had to acknowledge my prowess. They didn’t want to at first because of tradition until I came home in my thirties and established a new standard.

I’ve dealt with my share of naysayers but my advice remains the same. Trust the Lord. He’s greater than your experiences and circumstances. Submit your life to Him and let Him exalt you.

~bella

You are fortunate that your family came around to accepting your achievements.

I have a few family members that are Catholic. They are good to us, but they have made it clear that our non-Roman Catholic faith is unacceptable. Three of my relatives are members of the Society of St. Pius X, so they don’t think the Pope is acceptable either. I agree with them that doctrine and traditions should not change much over the years, but I disagree with the Roman doctrine in much the same way as has been expressed by others in this thread. A friend of mine used to argue that the Roman Church should always “change with the times.” However, they lost faith in the church under the last pope, because the church no longer had a significant influence on their lives. I was not surprised, since a constantly changing church doesn’t offer stability. Many people just cut their anchor rope and drift, and they don’t want a new anchor. The true anchor is Christ, but they reject Him too.

 

[Hazelelponi]

To my Protestant brethren.


Here are the Pope’s monthly intentions for the month of June as published by the US conference of Catholic Bishops. These were written by Francis, but as far a I can tell they are not revised by Leo XIV. He will publish his in 2026.

June​

That the world might grow in compassion
Let us pray that each one of us might find consolation in a personal relationship with Jesus, and from his Heart, learn to have compassion on the world.



Given that Our Lord said a house divided against itself cannot stand, and Satan does not cast out Satan, what are your best arguments against the Catholic Church? What basis would you use to call the Catholic Church evil, assuming that you do so?

I only want to reach understanding and am not here to insult you or lord myself over you, I only want to know

To my Catholic and Orthodox brethren, I ask that you merely listen. If you wish to post in this thread, please message me directly before you do. This thread is to allow the case to be made and their evidence presented. We can evaluate it when fully heard

The pope/church hierarchy attempts to usurp Christ's place over the Bride. How can the teachings seem good and still be opposed to God?

Because not all the teachings are good. Truth mixed with falsehood...

Doesn't mean I have anything against people who call themselves Roman Catholics. I'm sure like any other belief system there's fine people who practice it. I have a deal of respect for a few Catholics I have run into.

I'm just sticking with Christianity myself, of the more orthodox Protestant variety.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You are fortunate that your family came around to accepting your achievements.

I have a few family members that are Catholic. They are good to us, but they have made it clear that our non-Roman Catholic faith is unacceptable. Three of my relatives are members of the Society of St. Pius X, so they don’t think the Pope is acceptable either. I agree with them that doctrine and traditions should not change much over the years, but I disagree with the Roman doctrine in much the same way as has been expressed by others in this thread. A friend of mine used to argue that the Roman Church should always “change with the times.” However, they lost faith in the church under the last pope, because the church no longer had a significant influence on their lives. I was not surprised, since a constantly changing church doesn’t offer stability. Many people just cut their anchor rope and drift, and they don’t want a new anchor. The true anchor is Christ, but they reject Him too.

The true Anchor is Christ and He is the reason that we are here. He is how we move and live and have our being.
Look up who founded each denomination, and you will arrive at the name of a man or woman. They may have had holy intentions, but each was started by a human.
Now look up who founded the Catholic Church and you arrive at the name, Jesus Christ. As He said to Peter, you are a rock and on this rock I will build My Church. Then consider the scripture, unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.
For all the ills and missteps of the Catholic Church, consider the parable of the wheat and the tares. Jesus told us that the devil would send evil tares into the Church in an attempt to poison and destroy God’s Church, but she remains and the gates of hell will not prevail against her.
Yet the Lord gave no man the authority to abandon His Church and build another of his own, no matter how good the intention, separate churches are not authorized by God.
God has mercy and He desires all men to be saved, so He does not abandon the other churches as they have abandoned His, yet in light of scripture should you not at least contemplate God’s own Church?

 

[Jerry N.]

The true Anchor is Christ and He is the reason that we are here. He is how we move and live and have our being.
Look up who founded each denomination, and you will arrive at the name of a man or woman. They may have had holy intentions, but each was started by a human.
Now look up who founded the Catholic Church and you arrive at the name, Jesus Christ. As He said to Peter, you are a rock and on this rock I will build My Church. Then consider the scripture, unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.
For all the ills and missteps of the Catholic Church, consider the parable of the wheat and the tares. Jesus told us that the devil would send evil tares into the Church in an attempt to poison and destroy God’s Church, but she remains and the gates of hell will not prevail against her.
Yet the Lord gave no man the authority to abandon His Church and build another of his own, no matter how good the intention, separate churches are not authorized by God.
God has mercy and He desires all men to be saved, so He does not abandon the other churches as they have abandoned His, yet in light of scripture should you not at least contemplate God’s own Church?

I appreciate your devotion to your faith. I don’t agree with your assertion that other churches were all made by man and only the Catholic Church was made by Christ. I don’t find that a useful argument, but it is not key to my rejection of Catholic doctrine. My main disagreement is that the Catholic Church sees its role as mediating between God and man in ways not intended by Jesus. We have one High Priest, who is Christ, to mediate between God and man. I think verses like John 20:23 have been misused. I should also mention that Christ died once for our sins, and the sacrifice does not have to be repeated.

One of the reasons I have been following this thread is to “contemplate God’s own Church.” So I am taking your kind advice.