How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[BobRyan]

I understand the concept of penance, and a certain amount of fasting and denial of self is good for spiritual growth; however, our sins have been forgiven and we live to follow Christ. Contrition is good, but life has a way of making things difficult and painful, and I don’t see why we should add to it.

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it" -- is not penance but it is a life strictly devoted to God and preaching the word.

Penance:
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

That is more along the lines of punching ones self in the face. Whipping oneself on the back... denying oneself water etc. Things that we do not find in the Bible

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Ignatius has 15 letters - about half of them confirmed as fake letters. But there are also letters filled with interpolation and then some actual historic letters. Which ones are you talking about?

There is Ignatius of Antioch, an early Church father of whom I am not speaking.
I am speaking of Ignatius of Loyola born in 1491
and founder of the Jesuit Order. His most noted work is called Spiritual Exercises, he also wrote works on discerning spirits

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The bible doesn't even mention penance. Repentance, yes, but not penance.

That is your assertion, but do you have references from the original language?
Would you explain the difference between repentance and penance?

In scripture, fasting and prayer are forms of penance. They are also described by Our Lord as to how to do them, and these acts will be rewarded if done in proper disposition. If penance is not required, why would Our Lord describe how to do penance?

Thank you for your reply

 

[boughtwithaprice]

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it" -- is not penance but it is a life strictly devoted to God and preaching the word.

Penance:
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

That is more along the lines of punching ones self in the face. Whipping oneself on the back... denying oneself water etc. Things that we do not find in the Bible

But we do find self denial as a requisite for following in Jesus’ footsteps

 

[bèlla]

I have delicately tried, on this forum, to get users to see that many perceived and real doctrinal errors do not exclude people from being Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. I have been disappointed. The key is in believing that Christ died for the forgiveness of sin and overcome sin and death in the resurrection. Many other things are secondary, even though they are important and interesting.

Christianity is too diverse. That’s its greatest strength for some and biggest weakness overall. That’s why we spend so much time arguing and debating. For oneness to occur you need a culture that reinforces your similarities and that’s lacking. We have too many denominations, interpretations and traditions which compromises unity.

Oftentimes the ones who get it right have a shared ethos everyone accepts. We see it with the Amish and Mennonites. Where they differ from the majority is proximity. Their relationship with one another is beyond the church and they spend more time in each other’s presence outside of the service. Doing life together is the secret to their unity. You can’t do the same four Sundays per month and spend the other days elsewhere with little connection.

What brought this to mind is a show I’m watching about mormon wives. They met through their work as content creators but they already had a foundation because of their faith. But what made the relationship strong is quality time. They show up for one another’s events, special days, and get togethers just because. Mutual support is a hallmark of their bond and they make time for one another and bear each other’s burdens. And even in their work they’re pooling their talent to help one another get ahead. You see similar behavior with the others too.

There’s not enough doing among christians. Conversations are fine but that isn’t how relationships are sustained and strengthened. If the only time I see you is at church or when we’re serving we’re not going to be very close. There’s more to us than that. And the people who take the time to know us are the ones we’ll prioritize and oftentimes they’re not in the church. We have a togetherness problem that others have figured out.

I remember when I started exploring quaker teachings and watched a few videos. The common denominator was we when they spoke of their beliefs. The quaker way was reinforced continually and what really hit me hardest was watching a wedding. The whole community is involved and there’s a document the bride and groom sign commending their vow. And all attendees follow suit one by one. It’s a powerful witness to their covenant and I remember saying to myself they get it.

I spent a lot of years seeking the same until I realized it didn’t exist in the mainstream and I’d have look elsewhere and I did. I won’t spend my life being a name on a pew and I’ve seen what happens when you do that. You get left behind or fall between the cracks because no one really knows you and we’re meant to be seen.

~bella

 

[Valletta]

Valetta you confuse me some when say there is no Roman Catholic Church and say only Catholic which does mean universal then your referring to every Christian past present and future from every Christian denomination which I have no problem with. But the Roman Catholic Church thinks some differenty. They claim for themselves only to have the keys of St Peter and apostolic succession through all their popes. Could you clear that up in what you are referring to as the universel church. Is it the entirety of the church or just the Roman Catholic-universal church.

Of course all religions think they are right. Catholics believe our Christian brothers and sisters lack the "fullness of the faith." As to "Roman," there are numerous rites of the Catholic Church, the Latin or Roman rite has origins going back to the time of the Apostles. However, there were significant changes that took place between 400 and 500 A.D.

 

[Jerry N.]

Christianity is too diverse. That’s its greatest strength for some and biggest weakness overall. That’s why we spend so much time arguing and debating. For oneness to occur you need a culture that reinforces your similarities and that’s lacking. We have too many denominations, interpretations and traditions which compromises unity.

Oftentimes the ones who get it right have a shared ethos everyone accepts. We see it with the Amish and Mennonites. Where they differ from the majority is proximity. Their relationship with one another is beyond the church and they spend more time in each other’s presence outside of the service. Doing life together is the secret to their unity. You can’t do the same four Sundays per month and spend the other days elsewhere with little connection.

What brought this to mind is a show I’m watching about mormon wives. They met through their work as content creators but they already had a foundation because of their faith. But what made the relationship strong is quality time. They show up for one another’s events, special days, and get togethers just because. Mutual support is a hallmark of their bond and they make time for one another and bear each other’s burdens. And even in their work they’re pooling their talent to help one another get ahead. You see similar behavior with the others too.

There’s not enough doing among christians. Conversations are fine but that isn’t how relationships are sustained and strengthened. If the only time I see you is at church or when we’re serving we’re not going to be very close. There’s more to us than that. And the people who take the time to know us are the ones we’ll prioritize and oftentimes they’re not in the church. We have a togetherness problem that others have figured out.

I remember when I started exploring quaker teachings and watched a few videos. The common denominator was we when they spoke of their beliefs. The quaker way was reinforced continually and what really hit me hardest was watching a wedding. The whole community is involved and there’s a document the bride and groom sign commending their vow. And all attendees follow suit one by one. It’s a powerful witness to their covenant and I remember saying to myself they get it.

I spent a lot of years seeking the same until I realized it didn’t exist in the mainstream and I’d have look elsewhere and I did. I won’t spend my life being a name on a pew and I’ve seen what happens when you do that. You get left behind or fall between the cracks because no one really knows you and we’re meant to be seen.

~bella

I once belonged to a congregation that just met to worship God and have a nice meal together after service. In this church, there were probably people from five or six different denominations. A visiting pastor gave a sermon on how all Christians should be united in Christ without questioning the faith of those who had different doctrines. He made it clear that searching the Scriptures and debating one another was a good thing, but divisive arguing was not. A sweet old lady came up to him after the service and asked why any Christians would fight with each other in a divisive way. She lived a quiet life and had never experienced Christians fighting over doctrine.

I have also seen Christians of different denominations united in helping the poor and homeless. If Christians are in the process of living their faith, “doing life together,” discussions on doctrine find their proper place.

 

[Clare73]

The bible doesn't even mention penance. Repentance, yes, but not penance.

I'm thinking "repentance" became "penitence," which became "penance."

 

[Jerry N.]

According to Penance, “The Council of Trent expressly declares (Sess. XIV, c. i) that penance was at all times necessary for the remission of grievous sin.” This would appear to say that Christ’s sacrifice alone is insufficient. However, if penance is only an expression of grief for a committed sin, that is a different thing. How does this work in the Catholic Church?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

According to Penance, “The Council of Trent expressly declares (Sess. XIV, c. i) that penance was at all times necessary for the remission of grievous sin.” This would appear to say that Christ’s sacrifice alone is insufficient. However, if penance is only an expression of grief for a committed sin, that is a different thing. How does this work in the Catholic Church?

Scripture says in Hebrews 10, that if we sin willfully after having knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins but a certain
dreadful expectation of judgement and a rage of a fire that shall consume the adversaries.
Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to forgive all sin, yet to sin once we have received the gift is to trample the Son of God underfoot and count His sacrifice as an unclean thing.
To think that sin is no big deal and Jesus paid for everything is to commit the sin of presumption. It makes a mockery of God’s justice by claiming that He is duplicitous. The example would be rules for thee but not for me.
We all know that is unjust and do not tolerate it in others. Why do we think God tolerates it?
This is Catholic teaching of mortal and venial sin. We all fall and the righteous man falls seven times per day. When we are born again, we not only receive forgiveness for our sins, but the Holy Spirit gives us the power to obey, if we ask for it
The Eucharist is also our spiritual food as it’s the flesh and blood of Jesus, which can cleanse us from venial sin and decrease our desire for sin if properly received (see Paul’s teaching)
Penance is a way to keep us mindful of the sacrifice Christ made for us and self denial with its death to sin is a way to join Him in His suffering. It is a way of showing God how grateful we are for His gift.
We all fall, and God knows this will happen, but as we grow in grace we get stronger. There is no excuse for mortal sin, which is why it needs to be confessed. How can one that is dead to sin live any longer therein?

We do not tolerate our own children to be ungrateful. How do you think God views us if we take His gift for granted and expect a free pass, yet expect Him to pour out His wrath on others that are doing the same things we do?

God is not mocked. Do not commit the sin of presumption. Walk the narrow way and enter the straight gate. If you are a Christian and you commit a sin, repent and do penance

We are taking about almighty God here, he showed us by example to be humble and ask forgiveness. When He gives it, His command is go away and don’t sin anymore. That is what He told the woman caught in adultery. He did not say, commit all the adultery you want, you believe in me now. God forbid!

 

[Jerry N.]

Scripture says in Hebrews 10, that if we sin willfully after having knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins but a certain
dreadful expectation of judgement and a rage of a fire that shall consume the adversaries.
Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to forgive all sin, yet to sin once we have received the gift is to trample the Son of God underfoot and count His sacrifice as an unclean thing.
To think that sin is no big deal and Jesus paid for everything is to commit the sin of presumption. It makes a mockery of God’s justice by claiming that He is duplicitous. The example would be rules for thee but not for me.
We all know that is unjust and do not tolerate it in others. Why do we think God tolerates it?
This is Catholic teaching of mortal and venial sin. We all fall and the righteous man falls seven times per day. When we are born again, we not only receive forgiveness for our sins, but the Holy Spirit gives us the power to obey, if we ask for it
The Eucharist is also our spiritual food as it’s the flesh and blood of Jesus, which can cleanse us from venial sin and decrease our desire for sin if properly received (see Paul’s teaching)
Penance is a way to keep us mindful of the sacrifice Christ made for us and self denial with its death to sin is a way to join Him in His suffering. It is a way of showing God how grateful we are for His gift.
We all fall, and God knows this will happen, but as we grow in grace we get stronger. There is no excuse for mortal sin, which is why it needs to be confessed. How can one that is dead to sin live any longer therein?

We do not tolerate our own children to be ungrateful. How do you think God views us if we take His gift for granted and expect a free pass, yet expect Him to pour out His wrath on others that are doing the same things we do?

God is not mocked. Do not commit the sin of presumption. Walk the narrow way and enter the straight gate. If you are a Christian and you commit a sin, repent and do penance

We are taking about almighty God here, he showed us by example to be humble and ask forgiveness. When He gives it, His command is go away and don’t sin anymore. That is what He told the woman caught in adultery. He did not say, commit all the adultery you want, you believe in me now. God forbid!

Thank you very much. That makes things clearer.

 

[BobRyan]

But we do find self denial as a requisite for following in Jesus’ footsteps

True. What we do not find is a purgatory kind of punishment where we somehow pay for our sins after we die.
There is no indulgence system in the Bible
And If I need forgiveness of sins today -- I cannot ask a Christian friend to pay my debt of venial sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture says in Hebrews 10, that if we sin willfully after having knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins but a certain
dreadful expectation of judgement and a rage of a fire that shall consume the adversaries.

which is the lake of fire in Rev 20.

A debt that no one survives.

Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to forgive all sin

True. Instead of paying our own debt of sin in the lake of fire - we can opt to accept the gospel. Accept the atonement paid in full at the cross.

, yet to sin once we have received the gift is to trample the Son of God underfoot and count His sacrifice as an unclean thing.

The word is "continue in sin" - to choose rebellion and so - to go our own way.

For those who commit "the sin leading unto death" as John says in 1 John 5 -- there is no coming back.

The wages of sin - is eternal and final death. No one survives it but Christ.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

True. What we do not find is a purgatory kind of punishment where we somehow pay for our sins after we die.
There is no indulgence system in the Bible
And If I need forgiveness of sins today -- I cannot ask a Christian friend to pay my debt of venial sin.

That is where we differ, but it on interpretation not scripture. The three Catholic concepts which you mention are based on scripture. You just don’t agree with the interpretation.

Purgatory is based on the purging fire we receive prior to entering heaven. This is found in 1 Corinthians 3


13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.


Indulgences are based on the power of binding and loosing which is given to Peter when Jesus hands him the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
It is a falacy to say that indulgences forgive sins or allow sins secondary to payment, although that is the claim made by those that oppose them. An indulgence asks Peter to use his authority of loosing to relieve a soul of temporal punishment secondary to God’s justice, not to save from damnation which can only be granted by God’s mercy. Ironically, according to Catholic teaching, for an indulgence to remain in effect, the penitent must remove all attachment to sin. It does not forgive future sins. The scripture which this is based on is

Matthew 16:


16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Peter is given authority over things on Earth, hence the indulgence covering temporal, not eternal punishment, and an indulgence cannot cover future sin.

Intercessory prayer is based on James 5: 16-20 and 1 John: 5:16 as well as 1 Tim 2:1-4

There is one mediator but since the Church is the Body of Christ, we can all pray for each other. We are not separate mediators apart from the one. Our Lady can also make intercessory prayer as she is eternally joined to Jesus in the hypostatic union. She is not apart from Jesus to receive prayer, but is with Him. Catholic theology teaches that acknowledging her role is an act of humility and follows our Lord’s command to be as little children. The Hail Mary prayer:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Is actually a meditation on Luke 1:28 and
Luke 1:42



Bob, I believe that you sincerely base your interpretation on scripture, it is self evident that the Catholic Church bases her interpretation on scripture also.
You may disagree with the interpretation, and I believe that it has to come down to ecclesial authority as to who is right, but you cannot say that the Catholic interpretation is unbiblical

It is false and misleading to say that the Catholic Church is unbiblical or evil. You would have to be as the Pharisees in Jesus time and say I don’t know whether it is from God or men (which is what they said of John’s baptism)

Unless you claim special revelation from God, and you have to show evidence for that, you cannot claim that the Catholic Church is evil based on scripture alone

Peace be with you, Bob, I keep praying for you

 

[Kathleen30]

Thank you for your reply. Can you tell me where jn the Bible it says that we need no penance?

I agree that once we have passed from death to life, we will no longer need it as we shall see Him as He is, and we will know as we are fully known.

In this life, we are in spiritual battle. The spiritual battle takes place in our minds. We war against the sin of presumption, which is antinomianism, vs the sin of pelagianism which is working our way to heaven. Our life is not to be taken lightly, and we are admonished to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
We are not to walk as the Church in Laodicea which says I am rich and have need of nothing while we are miserable blind poor and naked.
When Jesus preached the kingdom, He said repent and believe the Gospel. He said unless we repent and do penance we will perish. When we are called, we are to deny ourselves and walk in His footsteps.
We need not concern ourselves with the pleasure of this world, as it is perishing. We fast, we pray, we give alms and present our bodies as a living sacrifice. Why would scripture tell us to do this if it were no longer necessary? Scripture also says we will be judged by our works. We won’t be saved by them, but we will be judged by them.
I don’t see Jesus going from town to town and saying guys I got this. Just believe in me and you’ll be fine. He constantly challenged our thoughts and pleaded us to change our behavior
The scripture even says that to suffer willingly with patience is pleasing to God and will be rewarded
I do not believe that all of those scriptures should be discarded in favor of presuming God’s mercy without repentance. I agree that Pelegianism is to be countered, yet also is antinomiansim, which is the wanton disregard of sin in the presumption of God’s mercy.

Broughteithaprice whilst many of those things you mention be true. It be as the God gives each of his children faith to believe. The faith cometh from God and not from us Our good works of love patience and long suffering be an automatic reaction to that it be a secondary cause and affect from the faith God gives . I not sure of Jesus saying repent and than do penance. He did say repent. But that be a changing of one’s mind. You could say a sudden transition of attitude. For many of us or probably for all of us it be a life long journey of the God being the potter moulding each of us into his image.. I must prepare for the work time soon . I will think some more and maybe write some more on your reply and thoughts later. God bless the broughtwithaprice. Kathleen

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Broughteithaprice whilst many of those things you mention be true. It be as the God gives each of his children faith to believe. The faith cometh from God and not from us Our good works of love patience and long suffering be an automatic reaction to that it be a secondary cause and affect from the faith God gives . I not sure of Jesus saying repent and than do penance. He did say repent. But that be a changing of one’s mind. You could say a sudden transition of attitude. For many of us or probably for all of us it be a life long journey of the God being the potter moulding each of us into his image.. I must prepare for the work time soon . I will think some more and maybe write some more on your reply and thoughts later. God bless the broughtwithaprice. Kathleen

You are right in that the spiritual battle takes place in one’s mind. How one thinks will be how one acts. We are responsible for the light God gives us, and He tells us to keep searching
Love is active and is as a hunger, never satisfied or says good enough love always gives more

This is the opposite of lust, which takes and is never satisfied. Lust takes more

 

[bèlla]

I have also seen Christians of different denominations united in helping the poor and homeless. If Christians are in the process of living their faith, “doing life together,” discussions on doctrine find their proper place.

We talk about this frequently in the singles forum. Most people come to church and go home in America. Church sponsored events may allow some level of socialization. But the majority occurs in bible study, sunday school and serving. The social component is separate that’s why many people have difficulty meeting suitors in that setting. They’re looking elsewhere and have church in a box and that’s pretty common.

The only dinners I can recall as an adult were served during an alpha course for participants, a yearly church event, or the monthly one we had in missionary prep. College students were given a meal when they attended small group and we had breakfast treats at a weekly bible study.

When I attended a synagogue we dined together weekly as a congregation. That was true in conservative settings and liberal ones as well. Newcomers were paired with members for services. You’d sit with the same people and they’d answer questions and help you get acclimated to the synagogue. We had periodic outings for new members and meals within the homes for shabbat and holidays. A family would invite us over to experience it in the presence of more mature believers. There were monthly events for families and larger ones for the community frequently. And we didn’t pay for our food. Weekly meals were sponsored the bar or bat mitzvah and catered and I’ve never eaten better.

That’s why I struggled when I went to church. There’s nothing comparable in christianity. I realized I’d have to create my own traditions to have the same and that‘s what we’re doing. But it’s nice to hear stories like yours. Our culture is very secular and things like that are less appealing to some or we’re too busy to get involved.

~bella

 

[Kathleen30]

You are right in that the spiritual battle takes place in one’s mind. How one thinks will be how one acts. We are responsible for the light God gives us, and He tells us to keep searching
Love is active and is as a hunger, never satisfied or says good enough love always gives more

This is the opposite of lust, which takes and is never satisfied. Lust takes more

Broughtwithaprice the seduction of the mind can be many things. Both physical and spiritually. Both sexually and spiritually both can be heavenly bliss and on the other hand both can lead to the upmost corruption. As to love and lust when it comes to the bed chamber it seems to me that both love and lust just merge into one. It just be how the man be. Perhaps it is why the union of marriage and the bed chamber are sanctified and protected in that regard by holy scripture. The written word and oral dictation are just as powerful in the seduction of the mind be that for good or evil.. In the case of our first parents they were seduced and beguiled by the spoken word of the serpent. And ye shall be as God and rest is now our reality . Yes the battle in the minds of humanity does continue. As to how one thinks is how one acts. Sometimes. But not always the devil is very deceptive in many ways.

You then say we are responsible for the light God gives us. He tells us to keep searching . Broughtwithaprice what does that mean ? I am not sure. Kathleen

 

[Kathleen30]

Of course all religions think they are right. Catholics believe our Christian brothers and sisters lack the "fullness of the faith." As to "Roman," there are numerous rites of the Catholic Church, the Latin or Roman rite has origins going back to the time of the Apostles. However, there were significant changes that took place between 400 and 500 A.D.

Valletta it be true that all Christian religions believe their right to some degree. There are some that claim that there be no salvation outside of their religion. But most Christian denominations do not claim such an audacity. But yes there be some that do. As to 400 - 500 AD your description be rather vague. But much did happen in that era. I sure you right. Kathleen

 

[Valletta]

Valletta it be true that all Christian religions believe their right to some degree. There are some that claim that there be no salvation outside of their religion. But most Christian denominations do not claim such an audacity. But yes there be some that do.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. Jesus founded one Church, I do not consider that as "audacious." As I have explained before, non-Catholic Christians are said to simply lack the "fullness of the faith." They are our brothers and sisters in Christ.