THE QUESTION IS HOW IS ISRAEL SAVED ??

[Guojing]

Yet Paul wrote to Gentile Christians in Rome:

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who [are] of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac” (Ro 9:6-10 NKJV)

If you are willing to accept that when Paul said "our father Isaac", he was no longer writing to gentile Christians, then this will be clear. Pity you aren't

Yet Jacob was also called Israel. And Paul writes in Ephesians:

“Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands — that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” (Eph 2:11-16 NKJV)

Nothing in this passage you used, indicates we the Body of Christ are now true Israel.

Being the Body of Christ, we are in Christ, and brought near to God by his blood, together with true Israel

That does not make us true Israel. True Israel has a covenant with God, we do not have one.

 

[David Lamb]

If you are willing to accept that when Paul said "our father Isaac", he was no longer writing to gentile Christians, then this will be clear. Pity you aren't



Nothing in this passage you used, indicates we the Body of Christ are now true Israel.

Being the Body of Christ, we are in Christ, and brought near to God by his blood, together with true Israel

That does not make us true Israel. True Israel has a covenant with God, we do not have one.

We are not going to agree on this, it seems. I see Paul addressing Romans to Christians in Rome, a mainly Gentile city. Thanks for the interaction.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

I'm good with the above. However I believe you are viewing the matter from a strictly genetic lense, which you might attest to or not?

I would not view it as a strict matter of physical heredity whatsoever.

So what you are attempting to do is to slice out genetic Israel from Gentiles when that is merely a bad set up position to start with

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ:

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way
3. But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

Well, here's where your positional wheels will come off the bus entirely.

Jesus advised us that "man," universally speaking, shall live by "every word of God."

References are Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, and Deut. 8:3

Start there and understand that the entirety of God's Words in the O.T. aka the "red letter" words are also for all of us.

As it pertains to Jacob there are more interesting things to be had from his matters than mere physical genetics

It's always unfortunate when believers fall into genetics when engaging in theology

 

[Guojing]

I'm good with the above. However I believe you are viewing the matter from a strictly genetic lense, which you might attest to or not?

I would not view it as a strict matter of physical heredity whatsoever.

So what you are attempting to do is to slice out genetic Israel from Gentiles when that is merely a bad set up position to start with

Well, here's where your positional wheels will come off the bus entirely.

Jesus advised us that "man," universally speaking, shall live by "every word of God."

References are Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, and Deut. 8:3

Start there and understand that the entirety of God's Words in the O.T. aka the "red letter" words are also for all of us.

As it pertains to Jacob there are more interesting things to be had from his matters than mere physical genetics

It's always unfortunate when believers fall into genetics when engaging in theology

The Body of Christ was never about genetics. I am talking about true Israel.

 

[Guojing]

We are not going to agree on this, it seems. I see Paul addressing Romans to Christians in Rome, a mainly Gentile city. Thanks for the interaction.

Like I said, go back to your pastors and they will teach you that Paul was addressing National Israel in Romans 9-11, unless they also believe, like you, that Isaac is somehow also "our father" (Romans 9:10)

Your reasoning of "Paul was talking ABOUT and not TO Israel" is splitting hair, but if you are fine with that, we can move on.

I mean if your father is also called David, and your brother tells you, "even our father David", and you claim he is talking about you and not to you, so be it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Body of Christ was never about genetics. I am talking about true Israel.

True Israel is who? Defined by what?

You did spend a great deal of the post I responded to on Israel of the flesh. Why?

 

[Guojing]

True Israel is who? Defined by what?

Already said to you

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13)

You can believe that, while still saying that the Body of Christ is not about genetics.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Already said to you

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13)

You can believe that, while still saying that the Body of Christ is not about genetics.

You keep referring to Israel of the flesh

That wasn't my question

Who is in your words, "true Israel"?

 

[Guojing]

You keep referring to Israel of the flesh

That wasn't my question

Who is in your words, "true Israel"?

I already gave you the answer. If you cannot read, no one can help you.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I already gave you the answer. If you cannot read, no one can help you.

That doesn't address the question whatsoever. You merely parroted your flesh quotes for Israel of the flesh. So what?

I asked your position on who "true Israel" is and how that is determined

You even exclude believers from being "true Israel" based on not being in their flesh lineage, which at this point is not determinable anyway.

Your quote:
"That does not make us true Israel. True Israel has a covenant with God, we do not have one."

Jesus advised us that "man" shall live by every Word of God. That includes every RED LETTER WORD in the Bible.

Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

Your position basically eradicates the entirety of the O.T. as being applicable to anyone but genetic Israel

 

[Guojing]

You even exclude believers from being "true Israel" based on not being in their flesh lineage, which at this point is not determinable anyway.

All of us believers are in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

Why do you want to be true Israel? You really want to be under the Law, you want to be physically circumcised and to have Isaac and Jacob to be your fathers?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

All of us believers are in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile.

Why do you want to be true Israel?

True Israel means God Prevails. I'm good with that

You really want to be under the Law, you want to be physically circumcised and to have Isaac and Jacob to be your fathers?

You merely have a very fleshly view of the laws. I have no issues with the laws being against all evil, even the evil within me. How about you? You ever thought of the law as your rightful condemner and been happy about it? I have and am delighted that is the case. I'm glad God is against evil. And I hope I won't be fooled into thinking I'm compliant.

 

[Guojing]

True Israel means God Prevails. I'm good with that

You don't realized the term Israel came from Jacob? Genesis 32:28

Are you from one of his 12 sons? If you are not, you cannot be Israel, no matter how much that term appeals to you.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You don't realized the term Israel came from Jacob? Genesis 32:28

Are you from one of his 12 sons? If you are not, you cannot be Israel, no matter how much that term appeals to you.

You seem pretty obsessed with viewing Israel of the flesh. Their flesh is no different than your own.

Recall:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[Guojing]

You seem pretty obsessed with viewing Israel of the flesh. Their flesh is no different than your own.

Recall:

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

That refers to the Body of Christ.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That refers to the Body of Christ.

Knowing "no man" after the flesh means everyone.

People really are spiritual beings. Matt. 23:9. And people are also engaged in various battles with our mutual adversary including ourselves. That too takes place beyond fleshly sights. It's not an easy sight to sort out in many cases. The ones who seem most pious and holy could very well be the opposite behind the curtains. And the most seemingly vile, could in fact be the most saintly. The O.T. prophets were in fact openly reviled, even killed for their Godliness.

All of orthodoxy accepts the fact that all people are in fact God's children. Though many are blinded to the fact of it by the devil.

 

[David Lamb]

All of orthodoxy accepts the fact that all people are in fact God's children. Though many are blinded to the fact of it by the devil.

Jesus Himself told some of His hearers that they were not God's children:

“They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. "You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father — God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.” (Joh 8:39-45 NKJV)

So clearly, Jesus didn't accept "the fact that all people are in fact God's children."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Jesus Himself told some of His hearers that they were not God's children:

David, you have to get the "other party" on the table. You only see "people"

We know that people are blinded by the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, our adversary, Satan, the devil

There is no sight in scripture as "only people"

All of orthodoxy accepts the fact that all people are in fact God's children.

God doesn't save devils nor are devils converted into God's children

 

[David Lamb]

David, you have to get the "other party" on the table. You only see "people"

We know that people are blinded by the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience, our adversary, Satan, the devil

There is no sight in scripture as "only people"

All of orthodoxy accepts the fact that all people are in fact God's children.

God doesn't save devils nor are devils converted into God's children

Sorry, I didn't think I had even suggested that God saves devils or converts them into His children. And I am not sure what you mean by me only seeing "people." All I did (I thought) was to quote some bible verses where we read of some people claiming that God was their father, and the response of Jesus, which included Him telling them that they were of their father, the devil.

 

[Dan Perez]

How were Adam and all those who came before Jesus saved?
John 14:6 " I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me"
All those who came before Jesus had to accept him after their mortal body had died, otherwise there are multiple paths to the Father and Jesus was mistaken, and the cross was unnecessary.

And John 14:6 will NOT answer your question and read Gen 3:21 and am quoting the important question !

# 1 In Gen 3:21 DID / ASA is a verb in the QAL , in the IMPERFECT TENSE , in the Singular

# 2 THE LORD / YHOUO

# 3 GOD ELOHIM , is a Plural , Absolute

# 4 MAKE / ASA , in the Plural

# 5 COATS / KUTONET , in the Plural

# 6 OF SKINS / OR , in the Singular in the ABOLUTE

# 7 AND CLOTHE THEM / LABAS is a verb in the HIPHIL , in the Imperfect Tense , in the Singular

And BLOOD was spilt and the SKINS COVERED THEM !

This what is called ATONEMENT and though the LAW .

dan p