THE QUESTION IS HOW IS ISRAEL SAVED ??

[Guojing]

Not according to the New Testament:

“Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all” (Ro 4:16 NKJV)

Romans wasn't written to people who had Isaac and Jacob as their natural ancestors.

Romans 9-11 has Paul speaking directly to the nation of Israel, see Romans 9:1-5, Romans 10:1, Romans 11:1-2.

Can't believe no one taught you that.

 

[David Lamb]

Romans 9-11 has Paul speaking directly to the nation of Israel, see Romans 9:1-5, Romans 10:1, Romans 11:1-2.

Can't believe no one taught you that.

Well, Paul says that the letter is to Christians in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

Yes, in Romans 9:1-5, Paul writes about national Israel, but he is not addressing national Israel. The same applies to Romans 10:1 and Romans 11:1-2.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, in Romans 9:1-5, Paul writes about national Israel, but he is not addressing national Israel. The same applies to Romans 10:1 and Romans 11:1-2.

Read Romans 9:10 before you conclude that

 

[David Lamb]

Read Romans 9:10 before you conclude that

That's strange! The email notification of your post had it saying something abut me splitting hairs. Perhaps you edited your post. Romans 9:10 says:

“And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac” (Ro 9:10 NKJV)

I imagine you were saying that because Paul says "our father Isaac" he must have been addressing the nation of Israel. However, not only would this go against his addressing the letter to Christians in Rome, it also ignores the context. Here it is again with the previous few verses:

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac” (Ro 9:6-10 NKJV)

So just as Paul says that those of faith are the true children of Abraham, so Christians can look to Isaac as their spiritual ancestor.

 

[Guojing]

So just as Paul says that those of faith are the true children of Abraham, so Christians can look to Isaac as their spiritual ancestor.

Your logic is truly astounding.

You don't know Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah? (Genesis 25:1-4)

So just because Abraham can indeed be considered our father, your strange logic makes you conclude that Isaac is therefore also our ancestor.

 

[David Lamb]

Your logic is truly astounding.

You don't know Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah? (Genesis 25:1-4)

So just because Abraham can indeed be considered our father, your strange logic makes you conclude that Isaac is therefore also our ancestor.

I take that as at least implied by Paul, when he writes: "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed." God had promised Abraham:

“"As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.” (Ge 17:4-5 NKJV)

Indeed, Paul quotes that in his letter to the Christians in Rome, in the context of talking of those who are "of faith":

“For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed — God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."” (Ro 4:13-18 NKJV)

 

[Tom8907]

That is true (1 Cor 15:1-4), but that has nothing to do with "being Israel".

Maybe we misunderstand each other- what happens to an Israeli who at death rejects Christ?

 

[Guojing]

I take that as at least implied by Paul, when he writes: "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called. That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ:

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way
3. But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

 

[Guojing]

Maybe we misunderstand each other- what happens to an Israeli who at death rejects Christ?

They are lost (John 20:30-31)

 

[Dan Perez]

Well, Paul says that the letter is to Christians in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

Yes, in Romans 9:1-5, Paul writes about national Israel, but he is not addressing national Israel. The same applies to Romans 10:1 and Romans 11:1-2.

Well, Paul says that the letter is to Christians in Rome:

“To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Ro 1:7 NKJV)

Yes, in Romans 9:1-5, Paul writes about national Israel, but he is not addressing national Israel. The same applies to Romans 10:1 and Romans 11:1-2.

Trun to Acts 11:26 that the disciples , were called CHRISTIANS , just means followers of Christ , also in Acts 26:28 .

dan p

 

[David Lamb]

Trun to Acts 11:26 that the disciples , were called CHRISTIANS , just means followers of Christ , also in Acts 26:28 .

dan p

Yes, I agree with that, but I was answering your post in which you had said that at least part of the epistle to the Romans was written to the nation of Israel: "Romans 9-11 has Paul speaking directly to the nation of Israel," you wrote.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, I agree with that, but I was answering your post in which you had said that at least part of the epistle to the Romans was written to the nation of Israel: "Romans 9-11 has Paul speaking directly to the nation of Israel," you wrote.

You just need to answer this question, are Isaac and Jacob your fathers as well?

 

[David Lamb]

You just need to answer this question, are Isaac and Jacob your fathers as well?

That depends what you mean. If you are asking if I could trace my physical ancestry back to Isaac and Jacob, the answer is no. If you are referring to those who have gone before me in the faith, then yes.

 

[Guojing]

If you are asking if I could trace my physical ancestry back to Isaac and Jacob, the answer is no.

Then you cannot be true Israel, which is who Paul was addressing, if you bothered to read Romans 9:10, let me help you:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[David Lamb]

Then you cannot be true Israel, which is who Paul was addressing, if you bothered to read Romans 9:10, let me help you:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

I just don't see why Paul should suddenly, in the middle of a letter addressed to Christians in Rome, change to addressing only national Israel.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Your logic is truly astounding.

You don't know Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah? (Genesis 25:1-4)

So just because Abraham can indeed be considered our father, your strange logic makes you conclude that Isaac is therefore also our ancestor.

cough, cough, Matt. 23:9

Abram to Abraham shows us a dividing line between a child of the flesh, Ishmael and a child of the promise, Isaac.

BOTH from within Abraham

It is a picture of the old blinded blinded by the god of this world persona and the new born again person that each of us are fated to become

Twins or 2 people in elder and younger birth orders are used to show this throughout the scriptures. Cain/Abel, Esau/Jacob, Manasseh/Ephraim, Aaron/Moses. Even the elder son and the prodigal son. Adam and Jesus, similar picture used by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I just don't see why Paul should suddenly, in the middle of a letter addressed to Christians in Rome, change to addressing only national Israel.

Paul actually does a very nice job of explaining who is of Israel that is not Israel starting in Romans 7 for himself, then progressing to Israel as a people in Romans 9 and culminating in Romans 11:8 showing us that the "spirit of slumber or stupor" is who is with Israel that is not Israel.

And lays this on all of us in Romans 11:32

God put everyone in the same boat, bound to disobedience.

We all just spend a lot of time denying the facts of it, but the entire world displays the hard facts of it continually, including "in the church." Rev. 2-3

 

[Guojing]

I just don't see why Paul should suddenly, in the middle of a letter addressed to Christians in Rome, change to addressing only national Israel.

So because of that, you decided that Isaac can also be our father?

 

[Guojing]

cough, cough, Matt. 23:9

Abram to Abraham shows us a dividing line between a child of the flesh, Ishmael and a child of the promise, Isaac.

BOTH from within Abraham

It is a picture of the old blinded blinded by the god of this world persona and the new born again person that each of us are fated to become

Twins or 2 people in elder and younger birth orders are used to show this throughout the scriptures. Cain/Abel, Esau/Jacob, Manasseh/Ephraim, Aaron/Moses. Even the elder son and the prodigal son. Adam and Jesus, similar picture used by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ:

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way
3. But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

 

[David Lamb]

There is a reason why true Israel needed to have 3 fathers:

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-10)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ:

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way

Yet Paul wrote to Gentile Christians in Rome:

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who [are] of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac” (Ro 9:6-10 NKJV)

1. But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

Yet Jacob was also called Israel. And Paul writes in Ephesians:

“Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands — that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.” (Eph 2:11-16 NKJV)