Pope Leo Faces First Major Test Over 'Morally Corrupt' Bishop

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, it had a lot to do with nepotism in the Western Church, which is why clerical celibacy became mandatory. It is subject to change, but I doubt it will.

Nepotism? Or transfer of property/assets?

When I've read up on this in the past, the prevailing theory pertaining to the motivation behind the policy was more economic than about the nepotism and "fear of creating dynasties" concerns.

Back in those times, priests (and especially bishops) were accumulating some rather significant amounts of wealth and land.

That was at the crux of the period where "selling indulgences" was a thing...

And the church organization itself preferred if those holdings were transferred to the church itself, rather than to the late-priest's wife and kids.


Sorry if my line of questioning sounds harsh, I'm promise this isn't meant to attack anyone personally, but people should understand the actual motivations behind certain things before immediately assuming it was for some noble "higher purpose"

I'm sure you're aware already of some of the origins of the "fish-only Friday" rule, right?

It was not only a way boost their own revenue (the Church itself owned large fisheries), but creating a new "rule" that wealthier people could purchase a dispensation for came with some economic benefits for the church as well.

 

[bèlla]

Yes, there are older vocations, but many middle age people find it very difficult to adjust to monastic life. Many religious orders are now on the brink of extinction.

Many have closed or merged for survival. The one I was affiliated with is very old and enterprising which allowed them to thrive and they’ve added new sisters. They have other locations too and aren’t dependent financially. We spoke candidly on that subject.

I don’t think that’s a good idea, in my opinion. I very much NEED in person worship, and the Sacraments, especially Holy Communion.

I understand your position and agree. But you have to consider the factors that make it possible. When the economy tightens giving decreases and many will have to make hard decisions. I see reductions on the horizon and there will be less facilities. I think the event with the pope was them dipping a toe in the waters to gauge reception.

~bella

 

[RileyG]

Nepotism? Or transfer of property/assets?

When I've read up on this in the past, the prevailing theory pertaining to the motivation behind the policy was more economic than about the nepotism and "fear of creating dynasties" concerns.

Back in those times, priests (and especially bishops) were accumulating some rather significant amounts of wealth and land.

That was at the crux of the period where "selling indulgences" was a thing...

And the church organization itself preferred if those holdings were transferred to the church itself, rather than to the late-priest's wife and kids.


Sorry if my line of questioning sounds harsh, I'm promise this isn't meant to attack anyone personally, but people should understand the actual motivations behind certain things before immediately assuming it was for some noble "higher purpose"

I'm sure you're aware already of some of the origins of the "fish-only Friday" rule, right?

It was not only a way boost their own revenue (the Church itself owned large fisheries), but creating a new "rule" that wealthier people could purchase a dispensation for came with some economic benefits for the church as well.

Actually, the fish only Friday is far less strict than how early Christians fasted. IIRC, they would fast from meat, dairy, alcohol, olive oil during the Penitential seasons, and fasted at least twice a week. The no meat rule is rather a modified version of fasting.

And yes, about the transfer of assets. That’s what I also understand.

 

[RileyG]

Many have closed or merged for survival. The one I was affiliated with is very old and enterprising which allowed them to thrive and they’ve added new sisters. They have other locations too and aren’t dependent financially. We spoke candidly on that subject.



I understand your position and agree. But you have to consider the factors that make it possible. When the economy tightens giving decreases and many will have to make hard decisions. I see reductions on the horizon and there will be less facilities. I think the event with the pope was them dipping a toe in the waters to gauge reception.

~bella

Yes. Many have merged or sold their property. I’m aware of one community where the rest of the sisters are all in nursing homes.

What do you mean by less facilities?

Blessings

 

[Hans Blaster]

Nepotism? Or transfer of property/assets?

When I've read up on this in the past, the prevailing theory pertaining to the motivation behind the policy was more economic than about the nepotism and "fear of creating dynasties" concerns.

Back in those times, priests (and especially bishops) were accumulating some rather significant amounts of wealth and land.

That was at the crux of the period where "selling indulgences" was a thing...

And the church organization itself preferred if those holdings were transferred to the church itself, rather than to the late-priest's wife and kids.

And despite these attempts a wealthy pope managed to get his son appointed a bishop a few centuries later.

 

[RileyG]

And despite these attempts a wealthy pope managed to get his son appointed a bishop a few centuries later.

Cesare Borgia?

 

[bèlla]

And the church organization itself preferred if those holdings were transferred to the church itself, rather than to the late-priest's wife and kids.

While I can’t speak for all I heard about this during my monastic weekend a few years ago. The former doctor who became a nun had to liquidate her assets and give it to the order. Your comment reminded me of the conversation. She recounted her experience to me personally and I was shocked. But she didn’t have any children. I’m uncertain if that would have made a difference or not but I’d never do it.

I’ve seen similar materials for bequeaths at non denominational churches and requested a package to see the terms. There’s not enough checks and balances for my tastes and you have no say in how it‘s spent. And if that‘s your goal there’s better ways to go about it.

~bella

 

[RileyG]

While I can’t speak for all I heard about this during my monastic weekend a few years ago. The former doctor who became a nun had to liquidate her assets and give it to the order. Your comment reminded me of the conversation. She recounted her experience to me personally and I was shocked. But she didn’t have any children. I’m uncertain if that would have made a difference or not but I’d never do it.

I’ve seen similar materials for bequeaths at non denominational churches and requested a package to see the terms. There’s not enough checks and balances for my tastes and you have no say in how it‘s spent. And if that‘s your goal there’s better ways to go about it.

~bella

Curious, is it a cloistered religious orders or not?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Cesare Borgia?

Yep.

 

[bèlla]

What do you mean by less facilities?

Blessings

Less physical structures because of the expense. Large buildings cost a lot to heat and the utilities aren‘t cheap, And yes they were cloistered. I met the former abbess during a visit and she explained how they supported themselves and the streams of income they had where we were and elsewhere. I was staying in a mansion while I was there and that was their hospitality and I didn’t have to pay. They had 10 income streams that I’m aware of at that location and the majority were commercial.

~bella

 

[RileyG]

Yep.

That’s what I thought. He also had a number of illegitimate children.

 

[RileyG]

Less physical structures because of the expense. Large buildings cost a lot to heat and the utilities aren‘t cheap, And yes they were cloistered. I met the former abbess during a visit and she explained how they supported themselves and the streams of income they had where we were and elsewhere. I was staying in a mansion while I was there and that was their hospitality and I didn’t have to pay. They had 10 income streams that I’m aware of at that location and the majority were commercial.

~bella

Wow! Thats incredible! And yes, I agree with you about the structure in regards to income. Etc

 

[bèlla]

Wow! Thats incredible! And yes, I agree with you about the structure in regards to income. Etc

I think they were blessed with people with business acumen. You don’t learn that in a book or at business school. Some of things they invested in were ahead of their time. We were driving around and the abbess pointed out things they owned and how it was used and I was really impressed. The house was gorgeous with formal rooms and original fixtures but they don’t lock the door.

I said no, no, no. We don’t do that! I plan on making it home. And you couldn’t see a thing outside at night. It was totally black like a horror movie. But I slept peacefully when I was there.

~bella

 

[Bob Crowley]

Pope Leo faces first major test over 'morally corrupt' bishop

More than 60,000 people have signed a petition calling for the removal of Cologne Archbishop Rainer Maria Woelki.

www.newsweek.com

As the newly elected pope, people will be watching how Leo handles concerns about sex abuse in the church.

How the Vatican responds to the petition, which has more than 60,000 signatures, could set the tone for Pope Leo's leadership style and his stance on episcopal accountability worldwide.

There are three sides to this issue. One side is expressed by the priest who started the petition.

A second is whether sacramental offices depend on "digital public petitions". If the church capitulates to a petition, then that will set a precedent in German law, and possibly canon law.

The third is that "...The public prosecutor's office has expressly confirmed that Cardinal Woelki did not make a deliberately false statement and therefore did not commit perjury."

What People Are Saying

Munich priest Wolfgang F. Rothe wrote in his petition: "Cardinal Woelki is largely isolated both within the Archdiocese of Cologne and within the Catholic Church in Germany. He is a shepherd without a flock. And the Archdiocese of Cologne is a flock without a shepherd."

Riccardo Wagner, Head of the Media School at Fresenius University of Applied Sciences Cologne, was critical of the petition in an interview with the Catholic newspaper Die Tagespost.

He said: "The platform and the petition act as if sacramental offices could be legitimized or delegitimized by digital public opinion – this fundamentally contradicts the nature of the Church, which is why this approach and means must be clearly rejected."

I think it's for the church to sort out - not a priest with a petition.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

….because of the large amount of homosexual clergy who were preying on teen boys and young men. Most of the abuse victims were/are male.

There are a few pretty obvious reasons for this:

1. Because of the Church's stance on homosexuality, entering the priesthood (or, more broadly, the sacrament of Holy Orders) has always been one of the few ways in which a homosexual man could remain involved in the Church without scrutiny of his sexual preferences. This has led to an overrepresentation of gay men in the Catholic clergy as a whole.

2. Because young Catholics are encouraged to talk to their priests and confide in them about their struggles, both during Confession, and just as general counseling, priests are frequently exposed to teens (boys and young men especially) in emotionally vulnerable and impressionable states, and thus those who have predatory inclinations have a wealth of easy targets.

3. Again, because of the Church's stance on homosexuality, it can be very difficult for the victims to come forward about the abuse because of the sinful implications of admitting their participation. This can be reinforced by the priest abusing his power to threaten spiritual consequences for telling anyone.

 

[RileyG]

There are a few pretty obvious reasons for this:

1. Because of the Church's stance on homosexuality, entering the priesthood (or, more broadly, the sacrament of Holy Orders) has always been one of the few ways in which a homosexual man could remain involved in the Church without scrutiny of his sexual preferences. This has led to an overrepresentation of gay men in the Catholic clergy as a whole.

2. Because young Catholics are encouraged to talk to their priests and confide in them about their struggles, both during Confession, and just as general counseling, priests are frequently exposed to teens (boys and young men especially) in emotionally vulnerable and impressionable states, and thus those who have predatory inclinations have a wealth of easy targets.

3. Again, because of the Church's stance on homosexuality, it can be very difficult for the victims to come forward about the abuse because of the sinful implications of admitting their participation. This can be reinforced by the priest abusing his power to threaten spiritual consequences for telling anyone.

A man with same sex desires can remain celibate and still be active in the Church.

. A vast majority of priests are good holy men, and those who harmed others deserve the wrath of Almighty God.

Peace

 

[durangodawood]

A man with same sex desires can remain celibate and still be active in the Church.

. A vast majority of priests are good holy men, and those who harmed others deserve the wrath of Almighty God.

Peace

What about the institution protecting and even further enabling these men for the sake of its own image? Does that institution deserve the wrath of Almighty God?

 

[RileyG]

What about the institution protecting and even further enabling these men for the sake of its own image? Does that institution deserve the wrath of Almighty God?

To the bishops who done harm, yes. The institution is made up of people. Not all are guilty. Also, from my perspective, the Catholic Church is the mystical Body of Christ, his bride. Many people are trying to harm the Church from within. Look up Bella Dodd and the communists that infiltrated the Church in the 1940s. It's quite interesting.

 

[Palmfever]

This shouldn’t even be an issue. A farmer has more intelligence than these idiots. You don’t leave predators with vulnerable people or expose them to them either. If we grasp that about animals why is it difficult to apply to humans?

~bella

Intelligence does not make one wise. There is a plethora of stupidly arogant educated fools.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

A man with same sex desires can remain celibate and still be active in the Church.

Absolutely. And many of them chose to become priests in order to do so as it provided a plausible explanation for their celibacy without inviting speculation about their sexuality