God saw that it was good ...

[honey badger]

Paul generally explains a principle that runs from cover to cover in 1 Cor. 15:46 as first the natural, then afterwards, the spiritual. This principle is expressed in many ways. The O.T. natural laws for example, but Jesus then showing the spiritual fact and intent of that same physical/natural law which really has nothing to do with food whatsoever.

Jesus uses this same principle when deploying such terms as first will be last and elder shall serve younger. The "first" position in scripture is the "natural position." The second position is the "spiritual position." Applying this principle then we can see the natural blinded by the god of this world person is replaced by the 2nd person, the spiritual person, the one who can actually see their position as spiritual and opposed to the blindness of the natural man. In this sight the "elder" serves as a warning to the younger, the 2nd person. Even in the same person. This principle is used many times in scripture by "renaming" a first person as a 2nd person. It's also used in several pairs and twins examples, such as Cain, the natural sinning man and Abel, the 2nd, blessed by God man. Again in Esau, the natural hated by God man under the influences of Satan, and Jacob, the man who sees his condition as a usurper, a phony, a thief and a deceiver who even puts on goat skins to deceive his father, yet is BLESSED by Isaac. That, Jacob, the 2nd man, the twin SEES his condition (although at the time I'm certain he was still blind to the fact, but used to show US the fact). Later in life Jacob displays the same principle when blessing the 2 sons of Joseph, placing his hands "wittingly" on the 2nd younger son and blessing him above the elder son, Manasseh.

I could go on at length with these principles. They are quite fascinating. But reserved for only for those who can see their own condition, ala Mark 4:15

seeing Adam has two sons\perceptions the count is three heads ....

 

[Aseyesee]

seeing Adam has two sons\perceptions the count is three heads ....

... Abraham’s Adam’s (etc) three men/sons (though two go down in the form of judgement (two sons) or the three layers in the ark/tabernacle/temple (feasts ones are called up to Jerusalem for), etc. all of the scattering ended by three days in a grave ...

 

[honey badger]

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs;

... Abraham’s Adam’s (etc) three men/sons (though two go down in the form of judgement (two sons) or the three layers in the ark/tabernacle/temple (feasts ones are called up to Jerusalem for), etc. all of the scattering ended by three days in a grave ...

 

[Aseyesee]

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits, like frogs;

A flood that takes you to a wilderness ...

A river of life (one tree) in the midst and on either side) whose banks and narrative are life ... whose leaves heal us of what the fig leaves only covered ...

Seals, trumpets, and bowls ohmy!

The message of the Bible is anything less then one brings judgment ... but not from our Father ...

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 

[honey badger]

A flood that takes you to a wilderness ...

A river of life (one tree) in the midst and on either side) whose banks and narrative are life ... whose leaves heal us of what the fig leaves only covered ...

Seals, trumpets, and bowls ohmy!

The message of the Bible is anything less then one brings judgment ... but not from our Father ...

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

i see this ... a valley of decision He drives us into, as in a threshing floor where the tares are removed and why He is near in reference to having come out of Egypt and on our way into the land ... also seeing the river parted into four heads ( the fourth the sum of the three ) but its His river and only by our perception parted ... and this by the law of our mind not kept but cast to the ground where it becomes a serpent hence we crawl ( on all fours ) on our belly's eating our own perception seeded by thoughts from without and these mingled with thoughts from within where we become lukewarm ... as in neither a here nor there but lost ... but this not out of order seeing when His judgements are upon the earth they teach righteousness ... so when i view the lamb with seven eyes and how these seven appear both good and evil like seven spirits of God or seven devils etc i see them as one or having one source and so the women remains innocent of the sacrifice, as in a lamb that appears dead or only speaks like a dragon ... an image of death we walk in and out ...

trumpets are for hearing and bowls for seeing ...

 

[honey badger]

not pondered it from this view as it relates to the three feasts which speak to the seven ... so just going to scribble a bit as it helps me go deeper ... understanding theses things are fluid and so i don't try hold on to them or pin them down etc


seals, trumpets and bowls ... trumpets relate to a hearing of the ear in a wilderness as in being lead by the ear or knowledge from without we fashion into an idol or the image we have of truth as it relates to self and who we are as in where we are ... seals makes me think of Jesus having kept the law so remained in the feast of Passover and so his garden remained enclosed as in a fountain sealed ... given that by keeping the law he entered directly into Tabernacles as in the seeing\understanding of who and where he was in ... so no judgement was poured out on him whilst he walked the earth, which is to say he did not judge\measure the first born ... of course in this are the two or the truth and the anti so in relation to vials\bowls when his hour came he poured out the truth as apposed to us who will pour out the lie ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

seeing Adam has two sons\perceptions the count is three heads ....

It's an interesting mix for sure. God, man and the adversary (Mark 4:15)

Getting all the parties on the table for viewing makes it much more interesting

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The two inheritances (is also seen in the feminine) … product of (the first man)

Ah, yes. An external picture of the "inner man" taken from within Adam. Tender, weaker, easily deceived. But of course critical to us (carnal flesh men) and dearly loved, even lusted after, longing for.

It's an interesting picture of all of us.

Adam’s choice to eat what his soul offered him;

Well, I'm not a freewill/choices make the person believer.

I believe God bound us all alike with the adversary, starting with Adam and Eve, ala Mark 4:15 and shown by Paul in 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, by John in 1 John 3:8, and critically for me, a scripture that turned my tidy little doctrinal package on its head a couple decades plus ago, in

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Scripture is unique in this way: When it looks at us it sees a child of God and the adversary or 1 or more of the adversary's own, such as the man of the Gergesenes who had a legion.

through a baptism (Noah) end of all flesh) the lineages are brought back together until a vineyard is planted and Noah's nakedness is revealed and the land of promises' first name becomes that of a cursed son.

Yes, on that count. We as believers do tend to get lulled into self justifications when we see just ourselves as individuals in the picture, but the fact is the blinded by the god of this world person is cursed, and NOT because of themselves or their choices. But because of what we are bound with in the flesh.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Are you saying we should ignore God's law,

Heaven forbid. I'm perfectly FINE with upholding the law to condemn the very factual evil and sin in everyone. In this way the LAWS, all of them, are our ally. And not just the select few that people carve out for themselves and toss away the balance.

Every Jot and Tittle is valid to this moment.

that is perfect for converting our souls Psa 19:7 so we do not see the evil (sin) within us

Boy, if that's really the case we're going to have to ask Jesus for a rewrite of this fact:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

THIS^^^ is not OPTIONAL.

It is a direct response of the spirit of disobedience that is in the flesh of every person.

See Paul's own confession of the fact in Romans 7, entire chapter, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15 and that's just for openers. He probes this subject far more deeply. But those in denial of the fact will never see it or get it because they are in fact blinded by the god of this world to the fact of it.

Any believer who has had a smidgeon of evil thoughts from our adversary in our own mind should be able to see these facts quite clearly. But of course that contains a big OOOPS moment for most.

and that is your solution?

God's Mercy in Christ. There is no way out of the setup. It's only a One Way Street. Nobody is going to earn themselves a whistle past the graveyard.

Seems like a terrible one to me, but we are given free will

Yeah, you see, to me claims of freewill are simply hilarious when God's Will and the will of the devils both working IN MAN are on the table.

Freewillers simply can't seem to get all the parties on the table. They see only their precious little self and their likewise precious little decisions. Always ignoring the facts and excusing the facts of EVIL THOUGHTS.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Let's do this. I believe every jot and tittle of God, RED LETTER, from cover to cover.

So where you see for example, ONLY THE PERSON saying the above, I see SATAN speaking from Peter's LIPS and perhaps even my own, when the TIME comes for God in Christ to rid us ALL of our MUTUAL ADVERSARY

So the Words you fear to hear, I can't wait to hear. All of God's Words are LIFE to me. Even the BAD ONES

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Heaven forbid. I'm perfectly FINE with upholding the law to condemn the very factual evil and sin in everyone. In this way the LAWS, all of them, are our ally. And not just the select few that people carve out for themselves and toss away the balance.

Every Jot and Tittle is valid to this moment.


Boy, if that's really the case we're going to have to ask Jesus for a rewrite of this fact:

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

THIS^^^ is not OPTIONAL.

It is a direct response of the spirit of disobedience that is in the flesh of every person.

See Paul's own confession of the fact in Romans 7, entire chapter, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:14, 1 Tim. 1:15 and that's just for openers. He probes this subject far more deeply. But those in denial of the fact will never see it or get it because they are in fact blinded by the god of this world to the fact of it.

Any believer who has had a smidgeon of evil thoughts from our adversary in our own mind should be able to see these facts quite clearly. But of course that contains a big OOOPS moment for most.

God's Mercy in Christ. There is no way out of the setup. It's only a One Way Street. Nobody is going to earn themselves a whistle past the graveyard.

Yeah, you see, to me claims of freewill are simply hilarious when God's Will and the will of the devils both working IN MAN are on the table.

Freewillers simply can't seem to get all the parties on the table. They see only their precious little self and their likewise precious little decisions. Always ignoring the facts and excusing the facts of EVIL THOUGHTS.

Let's do this. I believe every jot and tittle of God, RED LETTER, from cover to cover.

So where you see for example, ONLY THE PERSON saying the above, I see SATAN speaking from Peter's LIPS and perhaps even my own, when the TIME comes for God in Christ to rid us ALL of our MUTUAL ADVERSARY

So the Words you fear to hear, I can't wait to hear. All of God's Words are LIFE to me. Even the BAD ONES

I think we are way too far apart in our understanding of God's Word, the law doesn't produce evil thoughts, sin does which is breaking God's law, why Jesus said one worships Him in vain when we lay aside God's commandments, saying its not for me Mark 7:7-8. God's law is holy, just and good Rom 7:78 and perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 , because our perfect Savior wrote it, His personal Testimony Exo 31:18 and He knows what is best for man. I am going to leave it with agree to disagree and everything gets sorted out soon enough. Be well

 

[honey badger]

It's an interesting mix for sure. God, man and the adversary (Mark 4:15)

Getting all the parties on the table for viewing makes it much more interesting

the adversary being mans reasoning which takes away from the Truth ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I think we are way too far apart in our understanding of God's Word,

You have a problem with God being against lawless thoughts and evil? Why?

the law doesn't produce evil thoughts

Never said it did. The spirit of disobedience is already within all of us, shown to each of us through the law by the evil lawless thoughts that defile us, just as Jesus said we all have. Do you deny you have lawless thoughts?

saying its not for me

I've never made that claim either. Just the opposite. I know the law is my ally against evil lawless thoughts and I'm quite glad God is against such things. Aren't you? Helps me be against such things as well.

The last thing I need to do is lie to myself and try to claim what both Jesus and Paul said about the matters isn't true.

It really doesn't matter if anyone disagrees. Our own conscience will tell the facts in any case and nobody is going to fool God on this matter:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

There will be no excuses available at the judgment seat. The verdict is only GUILTY, just as Paul states in Romans 3:19. No escapees

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

the adversary being mans reasoning which takes away from the Truth ...

There is a real adversary. It's not our neighbors or even ourselves

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You have a problem with God being against lawless thoughts and evil? Why?

I advocate that we keep God's law through love and faith, His version Exo 31:18 Deut 4:13, not mans.

Take care

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I advocate that we keep God's law

I do the same, and as stated, I'm quite happy God is against lawless evil thoughts that defile all of us.

Good luck trying to dodge the obvious

 

[honey badger]

There is a real adversary. It's not our neighbors or even ourselves

it's Cain's reasoning which resulted in him murdering Abel, as in when we reason between the two fruits\sons of a tree\women we slay the Truth we are ... a long time ago i tried to become a beast\devil, as in i tried to remove every bit of the good son from me, but found it not to be possible because i am not a measure of my thoughts but the one measuring ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

it's Cain

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

Just as Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38, so are all people God's children. Matt. 23:9, Acts 17:28-29

Sins are in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and many many others

God has in fact bound everyone with disobedience:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God bound us in this way so that we would not only experience His Mercy, but SHARE IT

 

[honey badger]

Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor. 5:19

Just as Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38, so are all people God's children. Matt. 23:9, Acts 17:28-29

Sins are in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and many many others

God has in fact bound everyone with disobedience:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God bound us in this way so that we would not only experience His Mercy, but SHARE IT

if i understand correctly you are seeing this dragon, old serpent called the devil and Satan as a completely separate entity from mankind ?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

if i understand correctly you are seeing this dragon, old serpent called the devil and Satan as a completely separate entity from mankind ?

YES! Brilliant deduction. Jesus told us, people, we all have One Father, Matt. 23:9

People are not devils. Those who think people are devils have lost sight of the Gospel. It's a very unorthodox, even an extreme cultish sight to see people as devils.

 

[honey badger]

YES! Brilliant deduction. Jesus told us, people, we all have One Father, Matt. 23:9

People are not devils. Those who think people are devils have lost sight of the Gospel. It's a very unorthodox, even an extreme cultish sight to see people as devils.

its not a seeing of self and others as a devil, but seeing oneself as having one ... the opening post of his thread appears to be all about a distinction between two but to make a distinction calls for us to reason between them ... one good and one bad as in an eating of a tree bearing two fruits, which is to break the law and a law, which when spoken made a way for the serpent to enter in to the garden ... Jesus having kept the law did not make a way for the serpent\devil to enter in to his mind\garden ... and why he said 'and in me he has nothing.' or why he rebuked Peter for his reasoning about him going to his cross ...