God saw that it was good ...

[SabbathBlessings]

Edit: I see your response above and will look at it.

 

[honey badger]

Heres a short rendition ...

The second Adam does not accuse the woman (in the first Adam the commandment is cast down and the law of life becomes a rest unto death/or a truth/life/rest never entered into) (why Moses and the many things he is a picture of (as a first Adam) could see the land but not enter (among other such pictures), so she enters her second forty (by not eating) a cross picked up) as a garden inclosed or city with walls (wherein the law of our mother becomes the law of life) through the keeping of the commandment of our father). What once was a scattering is now a gathering back again. Knowledge (ladder with steps) drives us out (confusion of face) enter a 2nd forty) knowledge (without steps) gathers again (two gardens/city”s/ladders/sons etc (though they be the same truth); a place wherein nothing enters enter into that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie, where the first heaven and earth no place is found for).

The tree of life and the tree of knowledge are the same tree in the sense of marriage …

Hope this is somewhat satisfactory … as you know, to tug on one reshuffles the whole book and without fail quickly becomes unrelatable by its sheer volume.

well yes i see this but always satisfactory none the less ... i love it when it reshuffles and i get swamped to the point words fail ... at times i see a pattern revealed and its a WOW moment, but if i try hold onto the thought its gone ...not gone as in lost but still there ... like entering in and then trying to grasp at it only for this action to make it invisible again ... Ha i just looked up again and read what you wrote a second time and you answered my question in the first 8 words you typed ...

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I am going to let Paul answer this question of what it doesn't mean, to help us to determine within the context of what he is referring to.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3

Paul is obviously not teaching that setting aside the grace of God means to set aside the law of God, because God's law is what is sin

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
James 2:11 For He who said, (God) “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law breaking one we break them all and have become a transgressor of God's law, quoting directly from what God said in Exo 20:1-17 God's holy law and Testimony Exo 31:18

The law that Paul was referring to was circumcision Gal 2:3 and not that circumcision in itself is bad, but the Jews were teaching that they could save themselves by cutting off their skin and they no longer needed Jesus Christ for salvation. He spoke of this same situation in several chapters. No one can save themselves. We all need Jesus. Jesus came to save us from our sin Mat 1:21 we need a complete transformation in Christ because no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30

Same theory as above, as if all they had to do was cut off their flesh meaning they can make themselves righteous and do not need God's righteousness to cover us. Lets make no mistakes all of God's commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 and they are holy, just and good Rom 7:12 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142, but we can't make ourselves righteous. Just like I can't make myself righteous for keeping the 4th commandment, or any commandment. Only God can make one righteous, but lets not deceive ourselves that because we need a Savior, that we can practice unrighteousness (sin)

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Our obedience to God is what leads us to righteousness, disobedience leads us down the wrong path

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Does this make sense?

Ok, I think this addresses the questions. To summarize, we will define "the law" as "circumcision". Thinking that we are right with God by circumcision ignores the fact that we need God's grace to cover our sins, and relying on circumcision to save us is to say Christ died for nothing. Circumcision is the other gospel we need to avoid.

I need to go to lunch right now. When I get back we can insert "circumcision" everywhere we see "the law" and see if the definition fits.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, I think this addresses the questions. To summarize, we will define "the law" as "circumcision". Thinking that we are right with God by circumcision ignores the fact that we need God's grace to cover our sins, and relying on circumcision to save us is to say Christ died for nothing.

No, there are lots of laws in Scripture, its best to let the context define what law is being referred to. It really helps to have a good foundation of the the laws in the OT, because despite people believing they have all been deleted, they are all throughout the NT. The law that is perfect and holy and just, never turns into the law that is contrary and against. We if understand these principles and clear teaching of the OT, it will help us understand Paul when he is quoting these different laws.

The main law in Galatians is circumcision , its repeated about 12 times in the chapter. Paul will usually tell us through the context around the single verse which law he is referring to. The mistake most make is putting all the law in the same category when God didn't Deut 4:13 Deut 31:24-26 and either did Paul 1 Cor 7:19

Circumcision is the other gospel we need to avoid.

What did Paul say

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Not sure if you just didn't read my post, but circumcision was not the issue, its just not a means to salvation. No law can save us, we all need Jesus. That doesn't mean God's law doesn't have a purpose and because we need Jesus doesn't mean we don't have to listen to His voice and not obey what He asks.

 

[Aseyesee]

well yes i see this but always satisfactory none the less ... i love it when it reshuffles and i get swamped to the point words fail ... at times i see a pattern revealed and its a WOW moment, but if i try hold onto the thought its gone ...not gone as in lost but still there ... like entering in and then trying to grasp at it only for this action to make it invisible again ... Ha i just looked up again and read what you wrote a second time and you answered my question in the first 8 words you typed ...

It is an amazing thing to have him sit you down and serve you ... or how a word opens in an eternal like fashion, whether the pasture is in or out... when all things are yours there's no need to hold on to anything, but to do so scatters it ... never gets old (and (yet again) redefines rest in relationship to our thoughts/children, and what it means to be desolate ... but again how many ways can you say the same thing ...

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, there are lots of laws in Scripture, its best to let the context define what law is being referred to. It really helps to have a good foundation of the the laws in the OT, because despite people believing they have all been deleted, they are all throughout the NT. The law that is perfect and holy and just, never turns into the law that is contrary and against. We if understand these principles and clear teaching of the OT, it will help us understand Paul when quoting these different laws.

The main law in Galatians is circumcision , its repeated about 12 times in the chapter. Paul will usually tell us through the context around the single verse which law he is referring to. The mistake most make is putting all the law in the same category when God didn't Deut 4:13 Deut 31:24-26 and either did Paul 1 Cor 7:19

What did Paul say

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Not sure if you just didn't read my post, but circumcision was not the issue, its not a means to salvation. No law can save us, we all need Jesus. But because we need Jesus doesn't mean we don't have to listen to His voice and not obey what He asks.

I suspect that you are right, but not how you think. We will need to change the definition of "the law" many times in Galatians to preserve "righteousness through the law" in some passages while preserving "no righteousness therough the law" in others.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I suspect that you are right, but not how you think.

Your opinion noted.

We will need to change the definition of "the law" many times in Galatians to preserve "righteousness through the law" in some passages while preserving "no righteousness therough the law" in others.

We need to understand the context and the law that is being referred to. Many toss out the baby with the bathwater when its not what Paul is saying at all. We also have to harmonize his teaching's with his other teachings and most importantly with what Jesus taught and lived.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, there are lots of laws in Scripture, its best to let the context define what law is being referred to. It really helps to have a good foundation of the the laws in the OT, because despite people believing they have all been deleted, they are all throughout the NT. The law that is perfect and holy and just, never turns into the law that is contrary and against. We if understand these principles and clear teaching of the OT, it will help us understand Paul when he is quoting these different laws.

The main law in Galatians is circumcision , its repeated about 12 times in the chapter. Paul will usually tell us through the context around the single verse which law he is referring to. The mistake most make is putting all the law in the same category when God didn't Deut 4:13 Deut 31:24-26 and either did Paul 1 Cor 7:19

What did Paul say

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Not sure if you just didn't read my post, but circumcision was not the issue, its just not a means to salvation. No law can save us, we all need Jesus. That doesn't mean God's law doesn't have a purpose and because we need Jesus doesn't mean we don't have to listen to His voice and not obey what He asks.

Here are all of the instances of "the law" in the NKJV letter to the Galatians:

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

I don't see many instances where "circumcision" would fit where "the law" was mentioned.

 

[honey badger]

It is an amazing thing to have him sit you down and serve you ... or how a word opens in an eternal like fashion, whether the pasture is in or out... when all things are yours there's no need to hold on to anything, but to do so scatters it ... never gets old (and (yet again) redefine

rest in relationship to our thoughts/children, and what it means to be desolate ... but again how many ways can you say the same thing ...

yes i see now in both pastures ... He showed me the other day how doubt as in little faith opened a door to fear which caused my path to become wavering like a crooked path of a serpent ,,, which i knew but He gave me an intense experience of it whilst learning to ride a dirt bike over hills and valley's of ploughed fields ....

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here are all of the instances of "the law" in the NKJV letter to the Galatians:

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.

I don't see many instances where "circumcision" would fit where "the law" was mentioned.

Perhaps you are not reading my posts. I never once said every time we see the word "law" it means circumcision, I even corrected you when you asked this question and said we had to look at the context.

But to help the main law that is being referred to in Galatians is "circumcision" here are the references, starting with the premise in Gal 2:3 that gentiles needed to be circumcised to hear the gospel what Paul was correcting

Gal 2:3,7,8,9,12, Gal 5:2,6,11 Gal 6:12,13,15.

Not really sure of your point except helping me to make my point that Paul just uses the word "law" and we can't assume its the law we want it to be , throwing out something that is holy, just and good that Jesus asked us to keep, that sadly leads people to destruction Mat 7:23 Rev 22:15 1 John 3:4 per the warning 2 Peter 3:16

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Your opinion noted.

We need to understand the context and the law that is being referred to. Many toss out the baby with the bathwater when its not what Paul is saying at all. We also have to harmonize his teaching's with his other teachings and most importantly with what Jesus taught and lived.

Let's look at the following passage that uses the words, "the law", seven times 9 verses. Let's see if "the law" is defined therein and whether there is a need to understand "the law" to mean something else in any instance...

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:10–18). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

We see in verse 10 that the second instance of "the law" is within a quoted passage that has a curse associated with disobedience. The quoted passage is from Deuteronomy 27:26. The chapters that surround Deuteronomy 7:27 list blessings for faithfully obeying all the commandments of God and curses for not obeying all the commandments of God. The 10 Commandments (second set of stone tablets) was the anchor for all the laws passed on to the Israelites that day (which was just before they entered the promised land).

The first instance of "the law" in verse 10 references the same law as the second instance. We know this because of the prelude to the second instance which says, "for it is written". Verse 10a is saying that those who see "the works of the law" as providing safe passage are actually under the curse. The usage of "But" to start off verse 11's use of "the law" is saying that those people should know from Scripture that God does not see anyone as being righteous because they are compliant with His laws because Scripture says the righteous ones have eternal life because of their faith. Verse 12 says obedience to "the law" is not a matter of "faith". The law grants life only to those who obey it without fail (i.e., faith and works are not the same thing).

Moving on, Paul addresses the promise of salvation in Christ that He made to Abraham. And He says in verse 17 that "the law" (i.e., the 10 commandments and associated laws) which was given 430 years after the promise could not annul the promise and make it of no effect. Verse 18 says that if the inheritance (of eternal life) is gained through obedience to the law then it would not be by the fulfilment of a promise. Then Paul reiterated the fact that the inheritance was given to Abraham by promise.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Let's look at the following passage that uses the words, "the law", seven times 9 verses. Let's see if "the law" is defined therein and whether there is a need to understand "the law" to mean something else in any instance...

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. [The New King James Version (Ga 3:10–18). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

We see in verse 10 that the second instance of "the law" is within a quoted passage that has a curse associated with disobedience. The quoted passage is from Deuteronomy 27:26. The chapters that surround Deuteronomy 7:27 list blessings for faithfully obeying all the commandments of God and curses for not obeying all the commandments of God. The 10 Commandments (second set of stone tablets) was the anchor for all the laws passed on to the Israelites that day (which was just before they entered the promised land).

The first instance of "the law" in verse 10 references the same law as the second instance. We know this because of the prelude to the second instance which says, "for it is written". Verse 10a is saying that those who see "the works of the law" as providing safe passage are actually under the curse. The usage of "But" to start off verse 11's use of "the law" is saying that those people should know from Scripture that God does not see anyone as being righteous because they are compliant with His laws because Scripture says the righteous ones have eternal life because of their faith. Verse 12 says obedience to "the law" is not a matter of "faith". The law grants life only to those who obey it without fail (i.e., faith and works are not the same thing).

Moving on, Paul addresses the promise of salvation in Christ that He made to Abraham. And He says in verse 17 that "the law" (i.e., the 10 commandments and associated laws) which was given 430 years after the promise could not annul the promise and make it of no effect. Verse 18 says that if the inheritance (of eternal life) is gained through obedience to the law then it would not be by the fulfilment of a promise. Then Paul reiterated the fact that the inheritance was given to Abraham by promise.

You are going to be hard pressed to convince me that faith means we do not have to obey the voice of God and keep His commandments. Rom 3:31 You can't seriously think this is a curse or the works of the law to be faithful to God what He calls love to Him and neighbor John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 1 John 5:3 as "the works of the law" that bewitched the Galatians.

Also the Ten Commandments didn't start 430 years after the promise.

God said they started at Creation, in His His own Testimony Exo 20:11, Exo 31:18 they always came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 breaking one, we break them all James 2:11-12

Where there is no law there is no sin Rom 4:15 so the law that defines what sin is, can't be the same law that was added because of sin. Why it was sin for Cain to kill Abel, because without law there is no sin and thou shalt not murder can only be found in God's perfect law converting the soul written by our perfect Savior Psa 19:7 Exo 20:1-17

Faith does not void the law Rom 3:31 Grace does not void the law Rom 6:1-2 no one is saved without law Rom 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 we are saved by faith and obeying God's because we love Him and shows our faith is working, not a means to be saved, but because we are saved Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Perhaps you are not reading my posts. I never once said every time we see the word "law" it means circumcision, I even corrected you when you asked this question and said we had to look at the context.

But to help the main law that is being referred to in Galatians is "circumcision" here are the references, starting with the premise in Gal 2:3 that gentiles needed to be circumcised to hear the gospel what Paul was correcting

Gal 2:3,7,8,9,12, Gal 5:2,6,11 Gal 6:12,13,15.

Not really sure of your point except helping me to make my point that Paul just uses the word "law" and we can't assume its the law we want it to be , throwing out something that is holy, just and good that Jesus asked us to keep, that sadly leads people to destruction Mat 7:23 Rev 22:15 1 John 3:4 per the warning 2 Peter 3:16

My point is that, while it is true that Paul wrote some things that are hard to understand, other things are self-evident in what Paul said. The only way to construe Galatians as saying righteousness is gained through obedience to laws is to define "law" as meaning something other than "God's laws for right conduct of man". When we read the law, it should be apparent that we are breakers of the law, not upholders of the law. And as breakers of the law, we need relief. And that relief comes in the form of the grace of God for sacrificing His Son for our sins. To say that we righteously obey all God's laws is to deny the truth that we don't.

The focus on obeying the law would work fine if we could do it. But we can't. That's why we need Christ. Your attempts to re-define "the law" in Galatians is simply an attempt to make it look like obeying God's laws is the pathway to eternal life. But it's not. And I would say that all the different "definitions" of "the law" are necessary to avoid what the Scripture is telling us, which seems to be the pattern (starting back with eating foods discussion).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You are going to be hard pressed to convince me that faith means we do not have to obey the voice of God and keep His commandments. Rom 3:31 You can't seriously think this is a curse or the works of the law to be faithful to God what He calls love to Him John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 1 John 5:3 as "the works of the law"

Also the Ten Commandments didn't start 430 years after the promise.

God said they started at Creation, in His His own Testimony Exo 20:11, Exo 31:18 they always came in a unit Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 breaking one, we break them all James 2:11-12

Where there is no law there is no sin Rom 4:15 so the law that defines what sin is, can't be the same law that was added because of sin. Why it was sin for Cain to kill Abel, because without law there is no sin and thou shalt not murder can only be found in God's perfect law converting the soul written by our perfect Savior Psa 19:7 Exo 20:1-17

Faith does not void the law Rom 3:31 Grace does not void the law Rom 6:1-2 no one is saved without law Rom 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 we are saved by faith and obeying God's law is a consequence of love and shows our faith is working Rev 14:12

Ok, you tell me what other law besides God's laws for the right conduct of man give eternal life in return for obedience? What other law has curses for disobedience and blessings for obedience? There are none. It's certainly not circumcision.

There is a reason Paul wrote, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.'" (Ga 3:10)

This is not about circumcision. It is about seeking rightness with God through obedience to the law (which requires willfull ignorance of one's own law-breaking) instead of receiving God's grace and the mercy given in the sacrifice of His Son for our sins.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My point is that, while it is true that Paul wrote some things that are hard to understand, other things are self-evident in what Paul said. The only way to construe Galatians as saying righteousness is gained through obedience to laws is to define "law" as meaning something other than "God's laws for right conduct of man".

Scripture says there are many laws Neh 9:13. they are not all the same and to believe the the law Paul is referring to is God's Ten Commandments that He wrote and spoke, His personal Testimony in the Most Holy of His Temple that is in heaven under His mercy seat and God said If you love Me, keep My commandments Exo 20:6 is bewitching the Galatians (and us) you seem to have a misunderstanding of the character of God.

When we read the law, it should be apparent that we are breakers of the law, not upholders of the law.

This is not what I believe, God's law, the Ten Commandments shows us our sins, it doesn't mean we have to sin, its about decisions and who we are submitting ourselves to. Rom 6:16

And as breakers of the law, we need relief. And that relief comes in the form of the grace of God for sacrificing His Son for our sins.

Yes, Jesus gives us relief, when we repent and confess our sins and when He forgives cleanses us and when He heals, He says Go and sin no more meaning, stop breaking My law, and it seems you do not believe He gives us the power to do this. I believe He does, but if we keep hardening our heart in rebellion to Him and His law Heb 3:7-8 , He can't help us. He will enable us to keep His commandments through our love, but it comes down to do we love Him enough to submit to His will, or do we like our sins more than we do love for Jesus in seeking His help in forsaking them Pro 28:13

To say that we righteously obey all God's laws is to deny the truth that we don't.

To say that we can't keep God's law through the power of the Holy Spirit is to deny God's promise John 14:15-18

He promises He has a people who overcomes

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The focus on obeying the law would work fine if we could do it

I am sorry if you believe our devil is bigger than our God to keep us in sin. Its not what I believe, I believe our God has more power than the devil to keep from sin. What He came here to do Mat 1:21

. But we can't. That's why we need Christ.

Of course we need Christ, its what I have been saying all along.

Your attempts to re-define "the law" in Galatians

There are lots of laws in Galatians the main one throughout is circumcision. No one redefined anything except perhaps you, trying to make something that is holy, good and just Rom 7:12 and perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 , written by our perfect Savior Exo 31:18 as the law that God gave to bewitch the Galatians. Its not at all what Paul is talking about.

is simply an attempt to make it look like obeying God's laws is the pathway to eternal life.

God's law is according to Jesus Christ who is God that became flesh.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Because no one is saved in their sins

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

While we are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved by grace through faith, keeping God's law is a consequence of our faith and salvation in Christ. Arguing against keeping God's law, doesn't seem like its a good sign to me, if we love Jesus why would we not want to do what He asks?

But it's not. And I would say that all the different "definitions" of "the law" are necessary to avoid what the Scripture is telling us, which seems to be the pattern (starting back with eating foods discussion).

So should we ignore context so we can make the law mean anything we want it to? How can the same law be both perfect for converting the soul and contrary and against? How can it be holy just and good and love to God that He asks us to keep if we love Him but when keeping it is bewitching us? How can the same law be what sin is when breaking and be the same law that was added because of breaking thew same law,. Perhaps some misunderstandings on the laws and their differences and purpose.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, you tell me what other law besides God's laws for the right conduct of man give eternal life in return for obedience? What other law has curses for disobedience and blessings for obedience? There is a reason Paul wrote, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.'" (Ga 3:10)

God's law, the Ten Commandments, was written by the God of the Universe, it reveals what sin is when breaking, it is holy, just and good and perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 and reflects the very character of God written by the finger of God and His personal Testimony Exo 31:18. This is a standalone unit Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 and God added no more to this unit of Ten Deut 5:22

All the other laws were handwritten by Moses in a Book and contained all of the curses and blessings for keeping or not keeping God's law, they were placed outside the ark of the covenant (which holds the Ten Commandments inside) and there as a record or witness against us.

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

What Paul is speaking about in Galatians

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The Ten Commandments wasn't written by Moses, wasn't written in a book, it was written by God on two tablets of stone for its eternal; nature placed inside the ark of the covenant under God's mercy seat, the book was placed outside as a witness against and contained all of the curses and blessing for breaking the Ten Commandments.

Jesus came to take that curse for us, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 but does that mean that the curse is not still there if not accepting God's gift. It also doesn't mean God's law no longer needs to be kept, that we can now worship other gods, steal and covet or break the least of these commandments, not according to Jesus Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 John 15:10 or what Paul taught Rom 2:21-23 Rom 7:7 Rom 8:7-8 1 Cor 7:19 etc. Paul taught how if someone is in Christ, live in sin (breaking God's law) any longer Rom 6:2 and its a good question. Why would someone who loves Jesus so much knowing what our sins did to Jesus at the Cross want to continue in that same path of rebellion instead of going to Jesus and having Him live in us submitting to His Spirit which brings life and having His help in enabling us to overcome and keep in harmony with God's will, Psa 40:8 God's law and Testimony. Going away from this is not the answer Isa8:20 There is still two paths blessings and curses Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15 but in the New Covenant God is the one doing if we allow Him to through our love and willingness to give up self and submit to His will. He will help us every step of the way, John 14:15-18 but the problem and the difference between being saved and lost is explained after the most famous verse in the Bible that not many ever reads past...

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds (sins) were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil (sin) hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (what God's law does Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7) 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

If we don't go to Jesus to help forsake our sins Pro 28:13, we cover them and stay in darkness (condemnation) Some people like their sins, more than they love Jesus to ask for His help in forsaking them.

This is not about circumcision.

I never said this verse was, but circumcision is still in the book of the law and not in the Ten Commandments. 1 Cor 7:19

It is about seeking rightness with God through obedience to the law (which requires willfull ignorance of one's own law-breaking) instead of receiving God's grace and the mercy given in the sacrifice of His Son for our sins.

If all we needed is grace without faith there would be no reason why we are not with Jesus right now. We are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by grace through faith. We are living in grace because we all have sinned and broke God's law. But grace is not a license to sin otherwise we wouldn't need Jesus. Why do you think someone living in faith means not following Jesus or His teachings?

 

[Aseyesee]

yes i see now in both pastures ... He showed me the other day how doubt as in little faith opened a door to fear which caused my path to become wavering like a crooked path of a serpent ,,, which i knew but He gave me an intense experience of it whilst learning to ride a dirt bike over hills and valley's of ploughed fields ....

It is interesting how the process is all around us, apart of us, and in us ... a three dimensional language that becomes summed up in a fourth.

The other day I watched an old man who was offered something for free but decided to go to the vendors to buy it instead. I saw him the following day in a delima over what he had bought, as he looked at me (knowing I knew the whole secnario), and said smiling "no thought, no problem"

 

[Aseyesee]

God's law, the Ten Commandments, was written by the God of the Universe, it reveals what sin is when breaking, it is holy, just and good and perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 and reflects the very character of God written by the finger of God and His personal Testimony Exo 31:18. This is a standalone unit Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 and God added no more to this unit of Ten Deut 5:22

All the other laws were handwritten by Moses in a Book and contained all of the curses and blessings for keeping them, they were placed outside the ark of the covenant (which holds the Ten Commandments inside) and there as a record or witness against us.

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

What Paul is speaking about in Galatians

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The Ten Commandments wasn't written by Moses, wasn't written in a book, it was written by God on two tablets of stone for its eternal; nature placed inside the ark of the covenant under God's mercy seat, the book was placed outside as a witness against and contained all of the curses and blessing for breaking the Ten Commandments.

Jesus came to take that curse for us, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23 but does that mean that the curse is not still there if not accepting God's gift. It also doesn't mean God's law no longer needs to be kept, that we can now worship other gods, steal and covet or break the least of these commandments, not according to Jesus Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 John 15:10 or what Paul taught Rom 2:21-23 Rom 7:7 Rom 8:7-8 1 Cor 7:19 etc. Paul taught how if someone is in Christ, live in sin (breaking God's law) any longer Rom 6:2 and its a good question. Why would someone who loves Jesus so much knowing what our sins did to Jesus at the Cross want to continue in that same path of rebellion instead of going to Jesus and having Him live in us submitting to His Spirit which brings life and having His help in enabling us to overcome and keep in harmony with God's will, Psa 40:8 God's law and Testimony. Going away from this is not the answer Isa8:20 There is still two paths blessings and curses Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14-15 but in the New Covenant God is the one doing if we allow Him to through our love and willingness to give up self and submit to His will. He will help us every step up the way, John 14:15-18 but the problem and the difference between being saved and lost

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds (sins) were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil (sin) hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (what God's law does Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7) 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

If we don't go to Jesus to help forsake our sins Pro 28:13, we cover them and stay in darkness (condemnation) Some people like their sins, more than they love Jesus to ask for His help in forsaking them.


I never said this verse was, but circumcision is still in the book of the law and not in the Ten Commandments.

If all we needed is grace without faith there would be no reason why we are not with Jesus right now. We are not saved by grace alone, we are saved by grace through faith. Why do you think someone living in faith means not following Jesus or His teachings?

The ten commandments when cast down are the equvilant of two sons ...

 

[honey badger]

It is interesting how the process is all around us, apart of us, and in us ... a three dimensional language that becomes summed up in a fourth.

The other day I watched an old man who was offered something for free but decided to go to the vendors to buy it instead. I saw him the following day in a delima over what he had bought, as he looked at me (knowing I knew the whole secnario), and said smiling "no thought, no problem"

yes He has packed it into everything ... common practice when starting off on a ride so as to find ones balance is to do figure eights in both directions ... left & right ... like two crosses ...

same time last year i spent 14 days in intensive care with a literal issue of blood ( blood clots in arteries supplying blood to liver kidneys gall bladder and stomach) apparently i was not expected to live and was in the ward with those breathing their last, i was not concerned at all, if anything excited about the prospect of leaving ... anyway to the doctors amazement i had no outward appearance of someone whose liver had no blood going to and fro from it and that i survived ...

God causes the division without within Himself and why this division is within what we are able to bear ...

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God saw that it was good ...


Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


God introduces clean and unclean out of what he saw as good.


Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


Both clean and unclean are given for food.


Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

God saw that it was good ... introduces clean and unclean out of what he saw as good ... but gives both clean and unclean for food ... then delcares a further extrapolation between clean and unclean, and the consequences of eating what he originally said was good.

Lev 11:41 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.

Lev 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Lev 11:46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:

Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Then Jesus comes along ...

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Why does this start out as good then finds its end in that it literally has nothing to do with it?

Paul generally explains a principle that runs from cover to cover in 1 Cor. 15:46 as first the natural, then afterwards, the spiritual. This principle is expressed in many ways. The O.T. natural laws for example, but Jesus then showing the spiritual fact and intent of that same physical/natural law which really has nothing to do with food whatsoever.

Jesus uses this same principle when deploying such terms as first will be last and elder shall serve younger. The "first" position in scripture is the "natural position." The second position is the "spiritual position." Applying this principle then we can see the natural blinded by the god of this world person is replaced by the 2nd person, the spiritual person, the one who can actually see their position as spiritual and opposed to the blindness of the natural man. In this sight the "elder" serves as a warning to the younger, the 2nd person. Even in the same person. This principle is used many times in scripture by "renaming" a first person as a 2nd person. It's also used in several pairs and twins examples, such as Cain, the natural sinning man and Abel, the 2nd, blessed by God man. Again in Esau, the natural hated by God man under the influences of Satan, and Jacob, the man who sees his condition as a usurper, a phony, a thief and a deceiver who even puts on goat skins to deceive his father, yet is BLESSED by Isaac. That, Jacob, the 2nd man, the twin SEES his condition (although at the time I'm certain he was still blind to the fact, but used to show US the fact). Later in life Jacob displays the same principle when blessing the 2 sons of Joseph, placing his hands "wittingly" on the 2nd younger son and blessing him above the elder son, Manasseh.

I could go on at length with these principles. They are quite fascinating. But reserved for only for those who can see their own condition, ala Mark 4:15