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What do you say to anti-theists on the formation of the universe?

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trophy33

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In the given context of the storyline, the book outlines these people groups as genetic hybrids stemming from the seed of the serpent (Genesis 3:15) that resulted in giants (Genesis 6:4) that were genetic hybrids with additional fingers (1 Chronicles 20:6) (2 Samuel 21:20) and extended stature (Deuteronomy 3:11).

So if these were evil hybrids bent on destroying all humanity, would anyone tell God He is wrong for protecting humanity and destroying evil?

This is a book with the sun standing still, angels appearing, donkeys talking, bushes burning that aren't consumed, God performing plagues and miracles, a man being eaten by a fish and surviving three days later, and the Son of God resurrecting three days after being crucified for our sake.

Removing the context changes the dynamics of the situation.

One can reject the book, or accept what it says, but standing on the fence and claiming both simultaneously is illogical and irrational.

The question then results in, if they were pure evil and going to destroy humanity, would God be wrong for eradicating them?
1. The serpent seed doctrine is a controversial and fringe Christian religious belief, not hold by any usual denomination or church:

2. Bradskii was asking about women and children, not about few tall freaks with 6 fingers

3. We do not need to accept everything or nothing from the Bible. What about something being historical and something not?
 
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Bradskii

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The question then results in, if they were pure evil and going to destroy humanity, would God be wrong for eradicating them?
If he thought so then He should have destroyed them Himself. He drowned the whole planet so why not a few thousand men, women and children? He didn't, so the whole story about it being His command is just that. It's just a story that someone could use to justify doing it themselves.

And whether it happened or not is really not the point. It's that people will use the fact that they believe it was His command to justify it. And as we have seen, there are those even within this thread who have said - Yeah, if I really thought it was God commanding me then I'd do it. So there are no guardrails at that point. All you need to commit any atrocity is to believe that God is speaking to you.

That horrifies me. It should horrify anyone.
 
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Zceptre

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1. The serpent seed doctrine is a controversial and fringe Christian religious belief, not hold by any usual denomination or church:
2. Bradskii was asking about women and children, not about few tall freaks with 6 fingers

3. We do not need to accept everything or nothing from the Bible. What about something being historical and something not?
1. I included the verses and the majority has proven time and again it is not infallible nor always right. The book is clearly not natural, the point was simple. The book plainly has God recorded speaking to the serpent and mentioning his "seed." There are giants, clearly recorded, and individuals with unnatural numbers of hands and toes. It even gives a full count of "twenty four." Make of these things what you like, but they aren't "normal occurrences. Painting the events in a naturalistic light is not intellectual honesty. This "establishment" dictation things is quite reprehensible.

2. Bradskii can speak for himself. I don't answer referee type statements.

3. Historical or not. Agreed. Cherry picking what is historically true, and what is not, is often used support one's own personal preferences and done on a whim. This is commonplace even within the world of "believers" themselves.
 
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trophy33

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1. I included the verses and the majority has proven time and again it is not infallible nor always right. The book is clearly not natural, the point was simple. The book plainly has God recorded speaking to the serpent and mentioning his "seed." There are giants, clearly recorded, and individuals with unnatural numbers of hands and toes. It even gives a full count of "twenty four." Make of these things what you like, but they aren't "normal occurrences. Painting the events in a naturalistic light is not intellectual honesty. This "establishment" dictation things is quite reprehensible.
This is quite a goulash of ideas. If taken one by one, you would have a hard time proving any of them.

3. Historical or not. Agreed. Cherry picking what is historically true, and what is not, is often used support one's own personal preferences and done on a whim. This is commonplace even within the world of "believers" themselves.
Well, it is the thing with myths and with legends. They can work with some realities and create fictional contexts around them. Or mix real persons with fictional persons. Etc.
 
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Larniavc

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I've experienced untold quantities of paranormal things.
No you haven’t. What you have experienced are just things that you misperceived. It’s very common.
 
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Larniavc

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like octopi having skin that operates like an LCD tv screen to automatically camouflage?
No they don’t. Who on Earth told you that. For a start octopuses are not backlit.

SMH.
 
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Larniavc

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But your hypothetical rests on faulty premises since God is not capricious.
Oh he has totally been shown to be in the Bible. One minute he is all about love then he kills nearly every living creature in existence. OT God is described to have a completely different character to NT God.
 
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Larniavc

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There is absolutely zero logical reason (apart from mental direction of course) for nearly no instances of creatures with odd numbers of anything, including eyes(cameras), ears(microphones), legs. For things to be nearly perfectly symmetrical "just because" simply does not equate. This is a principle of mathematics and probabilities, and I find it telling there are no unhappy accidents.
This clearly shows that you do not understand ToE.

What is your level of education in biology?
 
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David Lamb

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Oh he has totally been shown to be in the Bible. One minute he is all about love then he kills nearly every living creature in existence. OT God is described to have a completely different character to NT God.
I have seen this said before, but it just isn't true. In the Old Testament we can read about God being gracious and merciful. For example:

“And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,” (Ex 34:6 NKJV)

“The LORD is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.” (Ps 103:8 NKJV)

Although the New Testament also talks of God's grace and mercy, it does teach His holiness, justice and judgment. For instance:

“"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!” (Mt 10:15 NKJV)

“And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” (Ro 2:3-5 NKJV)
 
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Zceptre

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If he thought so then He should have destroyed them Himself. He drowned the whole planet so why not a few thousand men, women and children? He didn't, so the whole story about it being His command is just that. It's just a story that someone could use to justify doing it themselves.

And whether it happened or not is really not the point. It's that people will use the fact that they believe it was His command to justify it. And as we have seen, there are those even within this thread who have said - Yeah, if I really thought it was God commanding me then I'd do it. So there are no guardrails at that point. All you need to commit any atrocity is to believe that God is speaking to you.

That horrifies me. It should horrify anyone.
Well this is what is happening right now, and Jesus in the Bible predicted it. (John 16:2)

Those murdering "infidels" are doing this at this moment, isn't that what you are referring to?

I think the level of evidence of it being God's command would need establishment, and God didn't condemn Gideon for wanting to know for sure what God said, was what God said. He asked for validation. But that is not relevant to Christianity, as we are commanded to love, not kill. (Matthew 22:37-40)

I also think the Old Testament Saints were given a more supernatural view of God. In the historical account they witnessed first hand undeniable miracles of God. This would be a different situation.

Right now, without "God saying so," Russia is killing innocent civilians and children are in that number. The world at large should be more horrified and outspoken, but they seem to me to be complacent. That's not the only example of this going on in the world.

Saul was sent to warn the Kenites, so apparently they were not evil like the Amalekites ("sinful")?

The Amalekites attempted to slaughter Israel on their way out of Egypt, and according to God's plan, the Messiah had to be born into the world to accomplish salvation for the world.

The same God teaches pure love and everything changes after the Messiah has accomplished salvation, and religions that didn't exist then are doing what the Old Testament outlines but seem oddly like copy-cats. There is an epidemic of people who "hear from God" and are getting who knows what from who knows where, interference... personal thoughts... emotional imaginations...

The problem with the query of "would you kill if God said so" is that God was speaking to a nation, in history, using his own people as representatives to bring the Messiah. The purpose being accomplished this same God tells everyone to literally lay down our lives to protect each other and the innocent and leads by example(John15:13), love our own lives not to the death(Revelation12:11), to think of others more highly than ourselves(Philippians 2:3), turn the other cheek(Matthew 5:39), go the extra mile(Matthew 5:41), bless and curse not(Romans 12:14), love and pray for your enemies(Matthew 5:44).

That is a drop in the bucket and a picture of the entire NT.

If someone today, hears anything about killing others in their head and does it, especially in a personal manner, they are obviously in disagreement with God, not agreement.

Now, it can be argued that "back in that time" they were or were not hearing God, but like you said that isn't so much relevant as people using the historical accounts of the Old Testament to justify killing.

I'm sure Hitler had some notion of a "god" or "gods" and that is exactly what it seems to me you are alluding to, is madness characterized by "God said so."

The figure to take note of is Abraham, in that he did exactly what you are mentioning, but then God never actually wanted the man to kill his son on an alter. He stopped him short of doing it because it was simply a test to prove that Abraham trusted God with all his being. A relationship test.

What you are horrified of is on the rise and exists, but Christ doesn't teach that, so posing the question to a Christian is simply asking a person if they are just pretending to be a Christian? Unless they are referring to a hypothetical "if I were Moses/Abraham" example.

If God were to irrefutably show up and tell someone to do something, they are likely to do it, if one doesn't teeter/totter on "Well there isn't a God." Simply put, in the hypothetical situation (for you, that is) that God is absolutely real, and absolutely shows up, you likely (whoever) would do what He asked, such as Moses did, in that hypothetical situation.

If God were teaching that post resurrection (The Biblical God-To kill others for some reason) then there would be a question as to why, if the mission is accomplished.

But He doesn't. Rather He teaches to love. (1 Timothy 1:5) This means such a request would be contrary to His wishes and a direct violation of His commands.

This essentially means we can know without a doubt if we hear a voice in our head telling us to do such things, that it is absolutely not God.
 
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Bradskii

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This essentially means we can know without a doubt if we hear a voice in our head telling us to do such things, that it is absolutely not God.
So it wasn't God ordering the massacre of children? Ah, but they were...demon seeds or something. I'm only here for a reasonable discussion. I'm not finding one in this thread.
 
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Zceptre

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So it wasn't God ordering the massacre of children? Ah, but they were...demon seeds or something. I'm only here for a reasonable discussion. I'm not finding one in this thread.
Moving right along...
 
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Ophiolite

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2. Bradskii can speak for himself. I don't answer referee type statements
How convenient for you. However, this is a discussion forum, not a venue for discrete, ring-fenced dialogues.
I have seen this said before, but it just isn't true. In the Old Testament we can read about God being gracious and merciful.
Any who dispute that would be denying a fact. However, that is not the assertion. The OT God, on occassion, displays violence, revenge and like acts and attitudes. It is difficult to see this as anything other than capricious and far from gracious and merciful.
 
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Larniavc

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I have seen this said before, but it just isn't true. In the Old Testament we can read about God being gracious and merciful. For example:

“And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth,” (Ex 34:6 NKJV)

“The LORD is merciful and gracious, Slow to anger, and abounding in mercy.” (Ps 103:8 NKJV)

Although the New Testament also talks of God's grace and mercy, it does teach His holiness, justice and judgment. For instance:

“"Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!” (Mt 10:15 NKJV)

“And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” (Ro 2:3-5 NKJV)
Dracula was graceful.
 
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Zceptre

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How convenient for you. However, this is a discussion forum, not a venue for discrete, ring-fenced dialogues.

Only unwitting children speak on behalf of others without express permission or glaring need. It is out of respect for the person being referenced in the third person that has the ability to convey their own thoughts. Bradskii is fully capable of communicating his own thoughts directly to me.

It should be an understood given that adults can speak for themselves. I actually don't think the man wants everyone in the forum speaking for him as if they could read his mind.
 
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Ophiolite

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Only unwitting children speak on behalf of others without express permission or glaring need. It is out of respect for the person being referenced in the third person that has the ability to convey their own thoughts. Bradskii is fully capable of communicating his own thoughts directly to me.

It should be an understood given that adults can speak for themselves. I actually don't think the man wants everyone in the forum speaking for him as if they could read his mind.
And yet, ironically, here you are claiming to be able to read his mind!

However, you miss the point. In a discussion, participants may comment upon any point raised, by any participant, including speculating (implicitly or explicitly) on what other participants intended, or developing a more detailed response given by any participant. This is readily accepted by the adults in that discussion. One leans to the view that someone ignoring these accepted "rules of engagement" is either not an adult, or is being discourteous.
 
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