Former Biden diplomat says there’s ‘no question’ that ‘free Palestine’ slogan has become a call for violence

[trophy33]

We can discuss past events, but the main point remains clear. Palestine must denounce violence and engage in dialogue. As long as Palestinian associations with Hamas and Hezbollah continue, peace will not be achieved. The choice for Palestinians is straightforward: renounce violence and participate in discussions.

This is too one-sided. Both sides would need to denounce violence, both sides would need to obey the international law and both sides would need to work on peace.

 

[trophy33]

@trophy33 questioned Israel’s creation, but the issue isn’t history

Not for you, because you do not live there. But if basically all your family was either killed, living under an occupation or expelled from land by Israel, then the demand "just work on peace now and here" does not work very well.

Every bomb killing one Hamas and 10 children creates 100 new Hamas.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

This is too one-sided. Both sides would need to denounce violence, both sides would need to obey the international law and both sides would need to work on peace.

Israel is not involved in any acts of violence or terrorism. Any statements suggesting otherwise are biased and unfounded.

 

[trophy33]

There are claims that Israel is not involved in any acts of violence or terrorism. Any statements suggesting otherwise are considered biased and unfounded.

People can claim all kinds of nonsensical or absurd claims.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

People can claim all kinds of nonsensical or absurd claims.

is that straightforward for you; Israel is not involved in any acts of violence or terrorism.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Not for you, because you do not live there. But if basically all your family was either killed, living under an occupation or expelled from land by Israel, then the demand "just work on peace now and here" does not work very well.

Every bomb killing one Hamas and 10 children creates 100 new Hamas.

I do not live there. If I did I wouldn't be alive to have this conversation with you.

Or did you not know apostasy is actual death in Palestine under Hamas?

Should I say well I don't live there so it's okay there's no freedom in Palestine or a future for anyone there so long as Hamas remains?

I have as much say as anyone, and my say at this point should matter more than a terrorist who doesn't value life.

 

[BCP1928]

Americans are involved globally, including Europe, Africa, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. To be a superpower, we must engage everywhere.

So we must. And Israel is our client state in a strategically important region, so it is reasonable that we should give support if it is in our own best interest to do so. But it is not reasonable that our government should denounce all criticism as "antisemitism" and attempt to suppress it.

 

[BCP1928]

is that straightforward for you; Israel is not involved in any acts of violence or terrorism.

Their retribution for the October 7th massacre has, in the eyes of many, become excessive. That's an opinion which may or may not be justified, but it is not antisemitism.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Not for you, because you do not live there. But if basically all your family was either killed, living under an occupation or expelled from land by Israel, then the demand "just work on peace now and here" does not work very well.

Every bomb killing one Hamas and 10 children creates 100 new Hamas.

It astonishes me that you never find a single issue with the Arab community or Palestinians but blame everything on Israel.

Do you understand why some people view that as anti-Semitism?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So we must. And Israel is our client state in a strategically important region, so it is reasonable that we should give support if it is in our own best interest to do so. But it is not reasonable that our government should denounce all criticism as "antisemitism" and attempt to suppress it.

You are not critiquing Israel's policies; you are attributing all blame to Israel.

 

[BCP1928]

Is part of the problem with our threads that some people can't grasp that pre-mandate Palestine had a different form of land tenure than the modern West?

Generally speaking that's true. In this case Hazelponi was just confusing the fanciful "Islamic Waqf" which HAMAS declared to support a claim of divine right with the ordinary charitable foundation invested in real estate parcels which had existed for centuries.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Their retribution for the October 7th massacre has, in the eyes of many, become excessive. That's an opinion which may or may not be justified, but it is not antisemitism.

Critics of Israel’s response to the October 7 massacre often overlooked Hamas firing over 20,000 rockets towards Israel since 2001. So I really don’t put much value on their criticism.

 

[BCP1928]

It astonishes me that you never find a single issue with the Arab community or Palestinians but blame everything on Israel.

Who does that? Nobody in this forum.

Do you understand why some people view that as anti-Semitism?

The only people who view it that way seem to be those who believe that the State of Israel has some sort of divine right superior to that of the Palestinians. The state of Israel exists solely by right of conquest, in that it was ceded to them by the conquerors. It has the same right to exist as any other such state. Right now they are having a lot of trouble with the indigenous inhabitants, Good luck to them.

 

[BCP1928]

Critics of Israel’s response to the October 7 massacre often overlooked Hamas firing over 20,000 rockets towards Israel since 2001. So I really don’t put much value on their criticism.

You can do as you like, but it looks like they were attacking Israel, not the Jewish religion. In fact, Jews themselves--both here and in Israel--have criticized and protested Israeli policy. They, too have been condemned by our government as "antisemitic" and "not real Jews." Why? I ask again, what dog do you think we have in the fight?

 

[Hazelelponi]

The only people who view it that way seem to be those who believe that the State of Israel has some sort of divine right

The people who support Israel do so because they believe in the secular process to foster peace - not Divine right.

But when people such as yourself argue Divine right to the land because their people built their mosque 1300 years ago then the Temple which was before that wins on Divine right. In the "my temple my flag" contest Muslims don't win, because they were last and their prophet false.

So you can either argue the secular, or lose the Divine right argument.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Critics of Israel’s response to the October 7 massacre often overlooked Hamas firing over 20,000 rockets towards Israel since 2001.

Perhaps, but I don't see anyone doing that here, so it's irrelevant.

The point is that, especially at this point, the Israeli response seems disproportionate. For some perspective, since 2000, approximately 2500 Israelis have died in Palestinian attacks (with ~1000 of those being on October 7th, 2023) (source). In response, Israel has killed tens of thousands of Gazans directly (most of them women and children), reduced most of the territory to rubble, and completely cut off access to food, water, and medical supplies for the civilian population (leading to more deaths, rampant hunger and malnutrition, and impending famine). Prominent Israeli politicians are on record calling for the eradication of everyone in Gaza, saying that no innocents (other than the remaining hostages) exist there.

 

[BCP1928]

You are not critiquing Israel's policies; you are attributing all blame to Israel.

That is a falsehood. But it is a suspicious falsehood because it dodges the question: Why is it the official policy of this country that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You can do as you like, but it looks like they were attacking Israel, not the Jewish religion. In fact, Jews themsleves--both here and in Israel--have criticized and protested Israeli policy. They, too have been condemned by our government as "antisemitic" and "not real Jews." Why? I ask again, what dog do you think we have in the fight?

For the purpose of constructive debate, I will change the direction of this discussion. We can both criticize policies from Palestine or Israel or discuss historical events, but none of these will effect any change. Although you and I cannot bring peace to the Middle East, let us strive to engage in a productive dialogue.

What steps do you believe Israel, Palestinian authorities, Arab nations, the United States, and the rest of the international community should take to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East?

 

[BCP1928]

The people who support Israel do so because they believe in the secular process to foster peace - not Divine right.

That may be true for some people but I don't know if it is true for you. In any case that answer does explain why we must regard any criticism of Israel "antisemitism" The Jewish people and the state of Isrel are not the same thing.

But when people such as yourself argue Divine right to the land because their people built their mosque 1300 years ago then the Temple which was before that wins on Divine right. In the "my temple my flag" contest Muslims don't win, because they were last and their prophet false.

That is a lie. I have argued no such thing. Read my post #171 and respond to that.

So you can either argue the secular, or lose the Divine right argument.

.I think you are the one who is going to lose the divine right argument. Neither Palestine nor Israel have a divine right to the territory.

 

[BCP1928]

For the purpose of constructive debate, I will change the direction of this discussion. We can both criticize policies from Palestine or Israel or discuss historical events,

Tell that to the Trump administration yourself. I'm not interested in a free trip to El Salvador or South Sudan.

but none of these will effect any change.

But they may improve our understanding of the situation.

Although you and I cannot bring peace to the Middle East, let us strive to engage in a productive dialogue.

What steps do you believe Israel, Palestinian authorities, Arab nations, the United States, and the rest of the international community should take to achieve lasting peace in the Middle East?

The first thing to do is to find out what Israel plans to do when they are through crushing Gaza and taking over the West Bank.