I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[Clare73]

Exactly and the hope of pain aside, that loss is no more chances at repentance or life of any kind. Humans were never granted eternal life.

According to that non-Christian religion maybe, but not according to NT teaching on regeneration. . .

At the time of resurrection not everyone will still be granted eternal life. Only those of the Kingdom. The rest have had their only reward and will live no more.

Scripture?

 

[Clare73]

So once again we're back to God As Merciless Fiend. "Look, there's old man Chang writhing in the flames. Pretty good old boy by human standards, but he thought Christianity was just another weird foreign religion. so the insignificant Korean farmer's gonna be tortured here for all all eternity as a tribute to God's unalloyed hatred for most of humanity.

Yeah. . .once again we're back to NT teaching rather than our own man-made religion of human wisdom set above God's truth and wisdom.

Due to Adam's fall, all his progeny are born objects of wrath by nature (Eph 2:3).

You either believe the word of God, or you don't. . .and instead create your own "better" powerless religion of man.

You've made it clear where you stand. . .

 

[bbbbbbb]

Uh, no. Other than heretical positions held in various cults we should know that people are not devils

Nor was Jesus tempted by himself in the desert. He was tempted by Satan, an alien agency

There is a similar development with the pagan god, Baal, who developed into Baalzebub, which then became Beelzebub, which is the personification of Satan.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There is a similar development with the pagan god, Baal, who developed into Baalzebub, which then became Beelzebub, which is the personification of Satan.

The serpent was in the garden

 

[Jipsah]

Yeah. . .once again we're back to NT teaching

Hmmm... I always thought the Pauline epistles were part of the NT. Not yours apparently. And "destroy", doesn't really mean "destroy, and the wages of sin isn't really death. God's mercy never really endured forever, but His hatred does. So it isn't NT teaching that troubles me. It's the NT filtered through the overlay of doctrinal presuppositions that mean more to most folks than the words or our Lord Himself. I don't see much overlap between the New Testament and your 19th century American doctrine.

rather than our own man-made religion

Funny, I was about to say the same thing to you.

of human wisdom set above God's truth and wisdom.

I.E, your docrtine uber alles. Sorry, been there, never going back to Walmart Protestantism

Due to Adam's fall, all his progeny are born objects of wrath by nature (Eph 2:3).

So they get roasted forever by default. Interesting design feature there, innit?

You either believe the word of God, or you don't.

I believe the Word of God. ("Take, eat, this is My Body..." for instance.) You have to explain it away. So spare me your "I believe the Bible until I don't" blatherskite.

. .and instead create your own "better" powerless religion of man.

What were those wages of sin again? As in, what does th Bible say, as opposed to what your "denomination" thinks it really means"

You've made it clear where you stand. . .

Yep. You believe God is a Baptist. (or whatever).

 

[timothyu]

Nor was Jesus tempted by himself in the desert. He was tempted by Satan, an alien agency

I'm sorry you are not interested in the Hebrew definition of a satan. As For Jesus, He was tempted in the desert by the Tempter, a God created being of Hebrew belief. Gentiles liked to lump a whole bunch of beings into one to streamline the religion I guess.

 

[timothyu]

Scripture?

Off the top of my head

Matthew7: 21-23 Matthew 6: 16-18

By the way, Yes the adversary and it's followers may be aware of punishment in the Lake as they cannot die by promise. Man not so, as they were not given eternal life except for those of the Kingdom, not the goats or tares so to speak, and this has always been the debate. But consider that anything not eternal is destroyed unless you think Death and the Grave are alive and suffering also, rather than simply being disposed of as unnecessary anymore.

 

[Jipsah]

I'm sure you'll understand if I believe Jesus' words in Mt 25:46:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment

Erasure friom time and space is pretty permanent. "I never knew you" means "you never existed". Nah, lets torture 'em forever; that's a lot more fun."

, but the righteous to eternal life."
rather than your personal heresy.

Lessee, the Bible says "The wages of sin is death." You say, "No, the wages of sin is eternal life in torment". Looks like you're directly contradicting Scripture there. Oh, I forgot, "death" never means "death" in your religion, does it?

I've heard all I need to hear to know I ain't interested!

Obviously. I

Only fallen unbelieving man could think there was any wiggle room in "eternal punishment" spoken by a just God.

Except the unscriptural "eternal life iunder torture" stuff that your sect preaches wasn't said by God.

 

[Valletta]

“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.”
Vision seen by Sister Lúcia of Fatima. She was told: "Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to Hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them."

 

[Clare73]

Hmmm... I always thought the Pauline epistles were part of the NT. Not yours apparently. And "destroy", doesn't really mean "destroy,

Perhaps you should invest in a good Greek dictionary. . .to destroy is "to ruin," it is not "to annihilate."

Erasure friom time and space is pretty permanent. "I never knew you" means "you never existed". Nah, lets torture 'em forever; that's a lot more fun."

News to me. . .where do you find that in the NT?

No, it means I never had a relationship with you.

God's mercy never really endured forever, but His hatred does.

More of your personal religion?

God's mercy is conditioned on repentance.

but His hatred does. So it isn't NT teaching that troubles me. It's the NT filtered through the overlay of doctrinal presuppositions that mean more to most folks than the words or our Lord Himself. I don't see much overlap between the New Testament and your 19th century American doctrine.

Sorry you disagree with God the Son's words in Mt 25:46:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment

So they get roasted forever by default. Interesting design feature there, innit?

Sorry you aren't in agreement with the divine wisdom of God's plan. . .

I believe the Word of God. ("Take, eat, this is My Body..." for instance.) You have to explain it away. So spare me your "I believe the Bible until I don't" blatherskite.

Whatever are you talking about?

What were those wages of sin again? As in, what does th Bible say, as opposed to what your "denomination" thinks it really means"

What does the text (Ro 6:23) state. . .do you have a problem with that?

Yep. You believe God is a Baptist. (or whatever).

What denomination do you think he is?

Your unbelief of the word of God in Mt 25:46, Eph 2:3, etc. is above my pay grade.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I'm sorry you are not interested in the Hebrew definition of a satan.

That's your definition and nothing more.

If you deny that there is a Satan and devils that are not people, but spirits of disobedience, you're just marking yourself in heresy category

Pin it down or take the brand

 

[Beth77]

Your posts might be more scriptural without the pejorative names

The word "infernalist" is not a pejorative. The term simply refers to people who believe that Jesus burns people alive forever and ever.

 

[timothyu]

If you deny that there is a Satan and devils that are not people, but spirits of disobedience, you're just marking yourself in heresy category

Nobody is denying that. You were just given the Hebrew definition of satan... adversary

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Nobody is denying that. You were just given the Hebrew definition of satan... adversary

Should we review the previous question then?

Was Peter Satan when Jesus rebuked Satan to Peter's statement, or was it really Satan, as a separate agent from Peter, speaking from Peter's lips?

There are reasons to make this distinction, primarily to keep us out of heresy positions

 

[JulieB67]

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

We have to take the bible as a whole and even this one verse you quoted -it states that the world "might" be saved through him. If what you believe were to be true it would certainly state that the world would be saved through him. He is the Savior for the whole world. But that just means he's it. There is no other way for salvation.

And if we go up one verse we know it's those that believeth on him, those are the ones that won't perish. Belief is a lot more than just simply believing It's entrusting our salvation in him, etc.
And repentance, that change of heart and mind is key. That's why our Father is so long suffering because he wants all to come to repentance. That can't happen in the LOF. It's not a refinery. He refines people in their lifetimes. The LOF was made for the devil and his angels. I'm one of the ones that doesn't believe in eternal conscious torment. I believe it's as stated -the second death. And if we go by Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 that would be the death of the soul. After that hell and death are then destroyed and then all things are made new. That doesn't mean people. If that was the case, our Lord would not have to be so long suffering waiting on everyone to come to repentance. He's looking for people who want to spend an eternity with him and the love flows both ways. If he were to make everyone new again, what's to say it wouldn't happen all over again where one wants to defy him, etc? You're also suggesting that God wants robots and that's not the case. We have a choice to love him or follow the way of Satan. And we see that in the end many will indeed still follow Satan. Christ even warns some of the churches that there's a chance if they don't repent of their sins they could be blotted out of the book of life. If that's possible than again what you're believing can't be true because that would make Christ a liar if all have life regardless.

Yes, every knee will bow, they will have no choice at that point but it's to the glory of God. They will know who the Lord is. But it doesn't mean they'll stay that way and again, many still choose willingly to follow Satan, many don't repent of their deeds. We see that all in Revelation. And what we don't see is anyone coming out of the LOF alive.

And by claiming the LOF is a refinery than you're also making Christ's ultimate sacrifice null and void if all God has to do is throw someone into the LOF and bring out a brand new person. But we know Christ does the saving, not the LOF that was "made" for Satan and his angels.

​

 

[timothyu]

Was Peter Satan when Jesus rebuked Satan to Peter's statement, or was it really Satan, as a separate agent from Peter, speaking from Peter's lips?

It was Peter being rebuked for being adversarial to the will of the Father. Something man has been told over and over since the Garden. The basis of the Abrahamic faith Jesus was following, and the first of His two commandments. His Will, not ours, being the basis of the entire Bible. Anything else is indeed heresy.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I believe these scriptures are clear about that. Am I misunderstanding?

1 John 4:14 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”

Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

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You are spot on this is the Gospel. Our Father does not do abandonment and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The Parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man says otherwise. He was not in heaven.

~bella

That parable was not about heaven or hell , but even if it was it was precross before Jesus went down and set the captives free.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

All have been, or will be, given the chance to repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Only those who chose to do so will be saved on the day of judgement.

So mans will trumps your gods will! check out Yahweh He knows how to save all his creation , he has told us 3 times in his scripture "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord"

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are spot on this is the Gospel. Our Father does not do abandonment and Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for.

Precisely what did he pay for?