Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

[MrMoe]

LOL. Chopping a post into little chunks and then responding to each chunk as though each soundbite stands alone is not a response.

Understanding deep thought requires comprehending paragraphs and combinations of paragraphs, and then responding to the overall thought being expressed.

The irony is that you’ve been doing this very thing yourself throughout this thread. Here are some examples:

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?


Am I to expect an ‘it’s different when I do it’ type argument from you?

One cannot respond to an approaching tsunami, for instance, by saying, "One molecule of water here. No problem. One molecule of water there. No problem. One molecule..."

Terrible analogy. A tsunami is an imminent threat. Of course you can’t respond to an approaching tsunami like that. On the other hand, no one is in danger if I dismantle a bad argument piece by piece.

 

[MrMoe]

He has people believing everything he says. Because he tells them he'll give them everything that they want.

Okay, provide your source for when and where he promised to give them everything they wanted.

He's lying, of course.

How did you figure that out?

But when you hear what you want to hear it's all too easy to believe it.

I get the feeling this statement of yours will turn out to be ironic if you can’t provide proof of your above claim.

You were told that.

You’re basically this meme at this point:

Like I said, I wasn’t told, I looked it up myself. I even asked chatgpt, (the ai not owned by Elon Musk, just in case it makes you feel better). This was its response:

No, USAID (United States Agency for International Development) is not the only way the U.S. provides aid to foreign countries, although it is one of the primary mechanisms for delivering development and humanitarian assistance. There are several other avenues through which the U.S. government provides foreign aid, including:

1. State Department: The U.S. Department of State is involved in diplomatic relations and also funds foreign assistance programs, particularly those related to governance, rule of law, human rights, and conflict resolution.
2. Millennium Challenge Corporation (MCC): The MCC is a U.S. government agency that provides large-scale development assistance in the form of grants to countries that demonstrate a commitment to reforms in areas like governance, economic policy, and human rights.
3. Defense Department (DoD): The U.S. military, through programs like security assistance and training, also plays a role in foreign aid. This includes funding foreign military forces, counterterrorism efforts, and peacekeeping operations.
4. Foreign Military Financing (FMF): This program provides grants and loans to help foreign countries purchase U.S. defense equipment and services, often as part of broader security cooperation efforts.
5. U.S. Treasury and International Financial Institutions: Through institutions like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the U.S. helps provide financial support to countries in need, though this is often through multilateral, not direct, channels.
6. Humanitarian Assistance Programs: Beyond USAID, other agencies like the Department of Defense, the Department of Health and Human Services, and various nonprofit organizations also contribute to disaster relief and humanitarian aid.

So, while USAID plays a significant role, it's just one part of the broader framework through which the U.S. engages in foreign aid.

And it's what you wanted to hear.

Your mind reading power aren’t working.

See the first point I made. If you want to call that 'mind control' that's up to you.

The first point you made: “He has people believing everything he says. Because he tells them he'll give them everything that they want.”
How does that apply to me? Do you think Trump has me believing everything he says. Because he tells me he'll give me everything that I want? Is that what you’re saying?

 

[MrMoe]

Why do you just hope that I want those places to change? I have told you repeatedly that I want the desperate countries in the global South to change for the better.

Because that is you plan for living in America. Placing your bet that, in the long run, good wins.

I’m just assuming you apply that attitude to other countries too. You would have to, to be logically consistent.

I am for world peace. I am for prosperity for all. Please do not pretend otherwise. Please do not suggest that I support strife or poverty in the global South. I have clearly stated my position repeatedly, and yet you ignore what I say and act as if I’m arguing the opposite.

Never claimed you supported those things.

Consistently ignoring my statements and accusing me of saying the opposite is not a sound debate strategy.

Not ignoring your statements. In fact I’m doing the opposite. I’m following them to their logical conclusion. Like your “placing my bet that, in the long run, good wins” statement.

That must mean you are placing your bet that, in the long run, good wins in those other countries too.

Does your religion encourage you to treat people the way you treat people here? If so, I don't want your religion.

What way am I treating people here?

Where possible, yes—staying and working to make one’s country a better place is a good strategy.

But, as we’ve agreed, there are genuine asylum seekers who deserve the opportunity to make their case. If there is a real need, they should be offered asylum—within the limits of what we can reasonably support.

Yes, we both agree with that. Like I said before, nothing illegal about seeking asylum. So I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.

None of this addresses the point that many undocumented individuals are here and working in ways that benefit both us and them. In these cases, it is more compassionate and practical to evaluate each situation individually and find a solution that works for everyone involved. For many, I believe this includes creating a path to permanent legal status.

Illegal immigrants still need to be punished for committing a crime. Rewarding them sends the wrong message. They can be compassionately deported to other countries.

 

[Bradskii]

How did you figure that out?

Are you really asking me to tell you how I know that he lies, constantly?

This is not now what I would call a useful discussion. It never had much hope of reaching that rather low bar. Now it's obvious that that there's no hope at all. I have better things to do...

 

[MrMoe]

Uh, no — the point of the link was that people here on temporary work visas are being treated like slaves, with little compassion.

Actually, yes, there are illegal immigrants that are being treated like slaves, with little compassion.

Illegal immigration is bringing slavery into America

There is a very real human cost to open borders: Modern-day slavery.

www.washingtontimes.com

Feds bust 'modern-day slavery' ring amid new immigration enforcement effort

At least 100 immigrant workers were freed from conditions in which at least two died, another was repeatedly raped, and others were kidnapped and threatened with death.

www.nbcnews.com

For many people who are here illegally, life improves when they obtain an ITIN number. Through that, they can work in the U.S. and pay taxes, even though they don’t receive many of the benefits that legal residents enjoy. One of the points raised in the link is that some people want to deport these undocumented workers — only to bring them back under temporary work programs that expose them to the same exploitative conditions described.

We are better than that.

An ITIN number is just a tax processing number issued by the IRS to individuals, primarily used for tax filing purposes. It doesn’t prevent exploitation and slave-like treatment of illegal immigrants. Add to that, not all illegal immigrants have a number.

If someone has demonstrated that they can live and work here in a way that is mutually beneficial, even if they are currently here illegally, then it makes sense to explore options that allow them to stay legally on a permanent basis.

What would some of those options look like? What if deportation is the only option?

 

[MrMoe]

LOL — no, we do not have disdain for the Christian religion. We’re here talking to you, aren’t we? Did you not notice? And we treat you respectfully, as fellow human beings.

Who is the “we” you are referring too? I hope you’re not saying that the handful of interactions on this thread from non Christians to Christians demonstrates that there is no disdain for Christians.

What we object to is Christians trying to impose their religious practices on others. When Christians demand that everyone follow their religious rules — such as those on sex and abortion — they can hardly claim discrimination when others push back.

I’m guessing you feel the same way about non-Christians trying to impose their practices on others, and when non-Christians demand that everyone follow their rules.

 

[MrMoe]

Are you really asking me to tell you how I know that he lies, constantly?

No, I’m asking you how you know he’s lying this time.

It appears you’re committing the ad hominem fallacy.
‘He lies constantly, so he must be lying now.’ is basically what you’re trying to say here.

This is not now what I would call a useful discussion. It never had much hope of reaching that rather low bar. Now it's obvious that that there's no hope at all. I have better things to do...

Okay.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The irony is that you’ve been doing this very thing yourself throughout this thread. Here are some examples:

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?
Are Folks Making America Hate Again?
Are Folks Making America Hate Again?
Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

Am I to expect an "it’s different when I do it" type argument from you?

Ah, but it is different when I do it.

Let me explain with an illustration. Years ago, I was in a business meeting where we were discussing a new problem that had come up. People were throwing out solutions, but no one seemed to be listening to each other, and no one was getting the big picture. So I stepped in with something I thought might help. I began to say, "We need to solve this, and we can do it with solution A, or solution B, or solution C."

Unfortunately, I never got to finish that sentence. I had barely said, "We can do it with solution A..." when my boss’s boss cut in rather firmly: "The problem with you, Merle, is that you see only one solution when there are other ways."

I was shocked. I was the new kid in town, and this man had power. So I said nothing. But I’ve always remembered how unfair and rude it was to cut me off mid-sentence and pretend that the snippet he heard represented my whole message.

Since then, I’ve seen that same technique used many times. I’ll be speaking, and someone interrupts to tell me I didn’t account for X—when in reality, I was just about to get to X before being rudely cut off. I’m no longer as patient when that happens. People who take snippets out of context and ignore what follows aren't listening well, and they hinder communication. Let people finish. Then respond to what they’re actually trying to say.

I had jumped into your discussion with another person because I saw the same pattern. It seemed like you were breaking things into soundbites and ignoring the fact that the very next phrase addressed your concern.

I’m not claiming my responses are perfect. But I do try to consider the whole of what someone is saying. When I condense things into soundbites to streamline the message, it doesn’t mean I’m ignoring everything else.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Actually, yes, there are illegal immigrants that are being treated like slaves, with little compassion.

Illegal immigration is bringing slavery into America

There is a very real human cost to open borders: Modern-day slavery.

www.washingtontimes.com

Feds bust 'modern-day slavery' ring amid new immigration enforcement effort

At least 100 immigrant workers were freed from conditions in which at least two died, another was repeatedly raped, and others were kidnapped and threatened with death.

www.nbcnews.com

Your first link is behind a paywall, but your second link is exactly what I was talking about. It says:

The collaborators of the ring are accused of taking advantage of and defrauding the federal visa program for guest farmworkers, known as H-2A, to bring immigrant workers from Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras and other countries to the United States.

LOL! You responded to a link I gave you about the H-2A program exploiting people who are here legally by providing a link about the H-2A program exploiting people who are here legally! Thanks for the link. You just corroborated what I was saying.

H-2A is a legal temporary immigration program. It allows employers to bring in foreign workers to meet temporary labor shortages, like seasonal farm work when there’s not enough domestic labor available.

And yes, the H-2A program is filled with exploitation. Your link confirms that. I link to a video with more information on H-2A exploitation at: H-2A Program.

So, I find it a little odd that you tried to refute my statement—that the legal temporary immigration program, H-2A, treats people like slaves—by providing a link that documents exactly what I was saying!

An ITIN number is just a tax processing number issued by the IRS to individuals, primarily used for tax filing purposes. It doesn’t prevent exploitation and slave-like treatment of illegal immigrants. Add to that, not all illegal immigrants have a number.

Is there slave labor among undocumented immigrants too? Probably yes. But from what I’m seeing, the slave-labor conditions within the H-2A program are even worse than those typically affecting undocumented workers.

What would some of those options look like? What if deportation is the only option?

There are many ways undocumented immigrants could be allowed to stay here legally—either by becoming citizens or by staying as legal non-citizens. Deportation is not the only option.

 

[Bobber]

America is, and always has been, great. That greatness has sometimes been overshadowed with hate. We had slavery, the Trail of Tears, and subjugation of women. Despite that, America has been moving on with things like The New Deal, The Great Society, Civil Rights, and even Compassionate Conservatism. Are we now losing all that? Are we making America hate again?

You can't mention things like slavery and the Trail of Tears and say America has always been great. And is stripping away from Mexicans one thing at least they could have a little pride in the The Gulf of Mexico being so named and you relabel it Gulf of America, unnecessarily insulting that culture and the talk of taking over Greenland and others things said about Canada.....YOU CALL THAT GREAT??????

Greatness should be measured by a lot more than economic or military strength but TRUE GREATNESS should be measured as well by how a good kind nation you can be to those about you.

 

[Bobber]

And it’s really unfortunate there wasn’t a better Republican candidate.

The Midterms will tell the tale. Perhaps Trump might face devastating humiliation or maybe not.....but the things he's doing now he better get figured out pretty quick.....with all the ups and down he creates in the markets every day the American people will only allow that so long.

 

[Bobber]

The mainstream media doesn’t make any effort to stick to the truth.

Sadly I'm seeing that with Fox right now who I used think were credible. When they back Trumps assertions that U.S. importers DON'T pay the tarrifs and the American people don't either they're no better IMO then CNN and the left media were years back supporting the Dems. It seems like we're seeing a reversal somewhat....the Liberal media are correct to be challenging various of Trump's claims and Fox basically IMO just goes with the President's narrative with no questions.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That is a fair point. Yes, there are times when people have legitimate concerns about policies that they think harm their well-being. And yes, people have every right to vote for candidates that support positions that they think are best.

The opening post covers too much territory and discusses some issues that can be legitimately described as policy disputes rather than hatred.

However, I stand by the opening argument that there are many people facing hard times that are attempting to unfairly take it out on other people. In particular, people often take things out on these groups of people:

1. Immigrants
2. DEI beneficiaries
3. LGBTQ+ community
4. Other religions
5. Foreigners
6. Government workers

These people are often receiving hatred in various orders of magnitude, ranging from wariness to displeasure to coldness to intolerance to vindictiveness to disgust to malice to loathing. In the thread title, I lump this all together as "hatred."



Yes, holy books warn about hatred.

And intellectuals have provided many convincing arguments that cooperation and love is better than hatred.

But not everybody listens to this advice.



That is a valid point, as I admitted earlier in this thread.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and for acknowledging that some concerns, like environmental trade-offs, are legitimate policy disputes rather than hatred. I respectfully challenge your claim however, that groups like immigrants, DEI beneficiaries, or the LGBTQ+ community face widespread hatred from Americans facing hard times. Let me address this biblically and practically, especially on immigration, which you’ve emphasized elsewhere (#385, #386).

You argue that economic struggles lead people to unfairly target immigrants, DEI recipients, and others with attitudes ranging from wariness to malice, which you call “hatred”. While some rhetoric can cross into sin (Ephesians 4:29), this broad label oversimplifies the motives of millions, many of whom are Christians.

As I noted previously, support for the candidate you reference (Trump) stems from practical concerns—economic survival, border security, and preserving values—not blanket hatred. Painting these as emotional outbursts dismisses legitimate grievances and risks division (Hebrews 12:15).

Take immigration, a key group you say faces hatred. I’m not pro-illegal migration, and Scripture doesn’t support it. Entering another country without permission and/or expecting better treatment than both citizens and legal immigrants who followed all the rules undermines justice and order (Romans 13:1–7). You advocate legal status for undocumented workers (#386) and asylum for genuine cases (#385), which shows compassion (Leviticus 19:34).

But unchecked borders strain communities, depress wages for low-income Americans, and reward lawbreaking, which isn’t fair to citizens who play by the rules (Proverbs 29:7). Christians can support orderly asylum processes, but prioritizing non-citizens over citizens, prioritizing those who skirt all normal processes and try and lie their way in faster, isn’t biblical stewardship (Luke 16:10). Securing borders and deporting criminals first restores order (1 Corinthians 14:40), then we can discuss case-by-case solutions.

On other groups, your “hatred” framing misses the mark. Opposition to DEI often seeks merit-based fairness (Proverbs 16:11), not racial animus. Resistance to LGBTQ+ policies reflects biblical convictions about marriage and gender (Genesis 2:24, Romans 1:26–27), as well as a desire to protect children from unnecessary confusion at impressionable ages, not personal malice. Skepticism of government workers or programs stems from accountability, not disdain for service (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

These are principled disagreements, not wariness-to-malice spectrums of "hatred".

Christians must speak truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), guarding against bitterness but not shying from biblical standards.

You note that holy books and intellectuals advocate love (#389), and I will agree that Scripture certainly commands it. But love doesn’t mean endorsing policies that harm citizens or contradict God’s design @The_Mantis’s media critique (#394), while needing better evidence, reflects a real Christian concern: mainstream outlets like CNN often vilify conservatives as hateful, amplifying division (Proverbs 12:22).

Your defense of their truth-seeking (#393) overlooks biases against biblical values, which Christians must discern (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

America’s hope isn’t in human progress, as you earlier suggested, but in God’s grace (Psalm 33:12). Sin stains all (Romans 3:23), but Christians must lead with repentance, prayer, and love (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Rather than assuming hatred, let’s address root issues—secure borders, economic relief, biblical values—with truth and compassion.

 

[Bobber]

Another good question.

I go on to say, "Here are some of the groups being hated," and I go down the list. I agree that, in most cases, the issue is more anger and frustration rather than hatred, but in other cases I think it is actual hatred.

It is so easy for me to see that "Make America Great Again" for some people really means "Make America Hate Again" as some people use the movement to condone hatred of minorities, immigrants, women, foreigners, etc. But yes, "hate" is a loaded term, and for most MAGA voters, the term does not apply.

I think all the rhetoric that a person is hating someone for having a different opinion is nearly all the time just hyperbole on steroids. Slap a label on another which seeks to decimate their character and make them try to talk their way out of it. It might make one look like they've won something in so doing but it is nonetheless a disingenuous ploy to use

 

[Bobber]

"Fundy Christians" don't use the term "just peace" at all.



Trump never uses the term "just". Neither do people around him. Their logic is "I do this because I can". That's not justice, by any reasonable definition.

He might become shocked to discover that America YES even many of those who voted for him will eventually get the chains of the Constitution and tie him down! I think behind the scenes, there is a sense people, even those who voted for him are going to say ENOUGH is ENOUGH. Sure they like some of his policies on certain levels but where he goes extreme he may reach the end of voter's looking the other way.

 

[RileyG]

The Midterms will tell the tale. Perhaps Trump might face devastating humiliation or maybe not.....but the things he's doing now he better get figured out pretty quick.....with all the ups and down he creates in the markets every day the American people will only allow that so long.

Only time will tell.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Pick a card, any card.

all white people are racist at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

I should address this in more detail. My initial response was too flippant. These links are worth considering.

First, it is well known that there is a universal tendency toward in-group bias. That is, most of us naturally favor those we perceive to be part of our own group.

This can become problematic when a particular group holds significant power. That power, combined with in-group bias, can make it difficult for outsiders to advance. The result is a system that unintentionally discriminates against others.

When a group maintains power over a long period of time, society tends to evolve around the norms and perspectives of that group. In such cases, discrimination can become embedded in institutions—even if no one intends it consciously.

This type of built-in, systemic disadvantage is often referred to as systemic racism. In the United States, since white men have historically held much of the power, the norms and institutions they shaped have led to systemic disadvantages for women and minorities.

That’s what the articles you linked to are addressing. White men, influenced by natural in-group bias, built and maintained systems that, intentionally or not, have made it more difficult for other groups to get ahead. Some people refer to this as systemic racism, and extend the term racist to anyone who is part of or benefits from this system.

Personally, I think that labeling everyone involved as “racist” is misleading. We—white men—are people with natural biases, living in a society that has discriminatory elements. While it's important to recognize and address the harm caused by systemic bias, I think we should be careful about applying such a loaded term too broadly.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Not ignoring your statements. In fact I’m doing the opposite. I’m following them to their logical conclusion. Like your “placing my bet that, in the long run, good wins” statement.

That must mean you are placing your bet that, in the long run, good wins in those other countries too.

I’ve "placed my bet" that good will be winning in America in the coming years. That’s why I remain here, and why I proudly call myself an American.

But that doesn’t mean I would place that same bet on every country. I certainly hope good will win out everywhere, and I believe we should do what we can to help. But when I look at the dangerous and unstable conditions in many countries, I can’t confidently say things will turn out fine. I cannot, in good conscience, ask people fleeing for their lives to return home based on a hopeful but unjustified wager that everything will improve.

Illegal immigrants still need to be punished for committing a crime. Rewarding them sends the wrong message. They can be compassionately deported to other countries.

Many people arriving at the U.S. border — whether seeking asylum or crossing without formal documentation — are doing so not out of convenience, but out of desperation. In several Latin American and Caribbean nations, the conditions are so dire that remaining can mean facing violence, persecution, or death.

In El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, entire communities suffer under the weight of brutal gang violence, extortion, and kidnappings. Women, children, and LGBTQ+ individuals are especially vulnerable, and government institutions often lack the resources or political will to provide protection. According to the Center for American Progress, this violence is a major driver of migration — legal or otherwise:
Still Refugees: Why People Continue to Flee Violence in Latin America

In Venezuela, economic collapse, food shortages, and authoritarian rule have created a humanitarian catastrophe. More than 7 million people have fled, many through irregular routes, not because they want to break the law, but because safer, legal pathways are inaccessible or overwhelmed. As the Center for Strategic and International Studies explains:
The Persistence of the Venezuelan Migrant and Refugee Crisis

Haiti is in a state of near-total breakdown. Violent gangs control major parts of the country, and the government is barely functioning. Deporting people back to Haiti often places them in extreme danger. As reported by The Guardian, deportees are frequently returned to chaos, hunger, and violence:
Mass Deportations Return Haitians to a Nation in Crisis

These are not isolated cases. According to the Norwegian Refugee Council, one in four displaced families in Latin America would face life-threatening conditions if returned. This is a regional humanitarian crisis, not just a legal issue:
Displaced Latin Americans Face High Risk of Violence if Returned

In light of this, both asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants deserve empathy and protection. Many are not “cutting the line” or “gaming the system” — they are trying to survive. Our policies should reflect the reality that for millions, staying home is not a safe or viable option.

 

[Lukaris]

Maybe the whole black/white thing is a false premise to begin with. Racism is real of course but it might stem from a false premise. Changing the premise wouldn’t change the reality of racism but it might offer a new direction and better outcome. Of course, there are other races and people of increasing genetic variation as things are going.

Ok, what am I rambling about? I recall a stanza from an early 80s hip hop tune: Survival by Grandmaster Flash:




Verse 5: Melle Mel; Duke Bootee; both]
The problems of the world today are bigger than life
You have recessions and depressions, men are cheating on their wives
Babies born each morn' with parts of their bodies gone
Because of some crazy drug that their mothers was on
This country is fightin' not unitin'
Always putting each other down
Blacks and whites don't realize that they're really pink and brown
You got; gun-totin' cut-throats, stress and strife
And looking out for number one is a way of life

 

[BCP1928]

Who is the “we” you are referring too? I hope you’re not saying that the handful of interactions on this thread from non Christians to Christians demonstrates that there is no disdain for Christians.



I’m guessing you feel the same way about non-Christians trying to impose their practices on others, and when non-Christians demand that everyone follow their rules.

It depends on the authority they have to impose those rules. Christians have only that authority over their own members.