Pro-Palestinian supporters at Columbia University confront Jews ‘to push them out of camp’

[rjs330]

And the Jews who live side by side with them? I guess you wouldn't believe them either. The trouble is, you haven't told us what that written history is.

Yes I have. The fact that you need a complete list of sources is a bit ridiculous especially when your sources are a few Arabs and Jews you met.

Rejected? How rude of them to reject a generous offer from foreigners who had the power--not the right--to dispose of their lives.

What are you talking about? It wasnt their land. How many times do you have to be told? The only nation that had the land was Britain who got it from the Ottomans. The Arabs only owned a small portion of it and could have kept it.

 

[rjs330]

It wasn't a license for a genocidal holy war to recreate a religious mythology.

Tell that to the Arabs.

 

[rjs330]

The British never owned any of the land that made up Palestine.

What do you base that on?

 

[JosephZ]

What do you base that on?

History.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes I have. The fact that you need a complete list of sources is a bit ridiculous especially when your sources are a few Arabs and Jews you met.

I'm not looking for a "list of sources" just a general idea of where you're getting this stuff from.

What are you talking about? It wasnt their land. How many times do you have to be told? The only nation that had the land was Britain who got it from the Ottomans. The Arabs only owned a small portion of it and could have kept it.

Are you talking land titles? Or sovereignty?

 

[rjs330]

History.

I dont think so. How much land did the Ottoman Empire turn over to
the British?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I dont think so. How much land did the Ottoman Empire turn over to
the British?

None of the land owned by people who owned it.

 

[rjs330]

I'm not looking for a "list of sources" just a general idea of where you're getting this stuff from.

Ive told you, reading the histories. There is quite a bit of it. How on earth would I know all that I've shared if I didn't?

Are you talking land titles? Or sovereignty?

Both. The Arabs only actually owned about 10% of the land. The Jews owned about 8%. Britian owned the rest. And the Jews told the Arabs that stayed that they could keep their land.

Why doesn't the left here acknowledge that. You guys just keep skipping over that.

Did you somehow believe the Arabs owned it all with land titles and such?

 

[rjs330]

None of the land owned by people who owned it.

And how much was that? What percentage of all the land was owned by the Arabs and what percentage was owned by the Jews when the land was partitioned?

By the way Israel offered for the Arabs to keep their property.

 

[BCP1928]

Ive told you, reading the histories. There is quite a bit of it. How on earth would I know all that I've shared if I didn't?

How do I know you are not just making it up as you go along?

 

[rjs330]

How do I know you are not just making it up as you go along?

Of you actually knew the histories then you would know I'm not. It might behoove you to spend some time reading up on it instead of believing a bunch of liberal or Palestinian propeganda.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And how much was that? What percentage of all the land was owned by the Arabs and what percentage was owned by the Jews when the land was partitioned?

On 1 April 1945, the British administration's statistics showed that Jewish buyers had legal ownership over approximately 5.67% of the Mandate's total land area. ... By the end of 1947, Jewish ownership had increased to 6.6%.

 

[BCP1928]

Of you actually knew the histories then you would know I'm not. It might behoove you to spend some time reading up on it instead of believing a bunch of liberal or Palestinian propeganda.

I have read histories. They tell me that the war is at base a conflict between a national state and its indigenous people, that religion plays a role, but is not a primary factor. My conversations with Muslims and Jews in Muslim countries over the years corroborate what I read, But I'm not arguing with you about it--you will believe what you please, I just am curious to know where you get it, because I don't see any purpose in insisting that it must be a religious war. That sounds more like some right-wing preacher, Hagee or Pat Robertson. maybe.

 

[rjs330]

On 1 April 1945, the British administration's statistics showed that Jewish buyers had legal ownership over approximately 5.67% of the Mandate's total land area. ... By the end of 1947, Jewish ownership had increased to 6.6%.

Right and how much owned by the Arabs?

 

[rjs330]

I have read histories. They tell me that the war is at base a conflict between a national state and its indigenous people, that religion plays a role, but is not a primary factor. My conversations with Muslims and Jews in Muslim countries over the years corroborate what I read, But I'm not arguing with you about it--you will believe what you please, I just am curious to know where you get it, because I don't see any purpose in insisting that it must be a religious war. That sounds more like some right-wing preacher, Hagee or Pat Robertson. maybe.

Ive never claimed it was a religious war. I claimed it was hatred for the Jews in general. They didnt want the Jews there. The Arabs were not indigenous to the area. They did not own all the land. They barely owned more than the Jews. Most of the land wasnt theirs to own. The land wasnt theirs to decide what to do with. The land belonged to Britain. And then Britian and the UN decided what to do with it. A resolution was passed. Israel decided it was rhe right time. They claimed independence, offered to allow the Arabs to stay and keep the property they owned. Then the Arabs attacked them. There were other attacks on the Jews earlier due to even the discussions of allowing the Jews to stay and have a country. The Arabs turned down the offer and attacked.

Anti-semetic behaviors. Forgoe all offers of their own nation state and attack Israel instead. And they haven't stopped since.

As far as Hagee or Robertson is concerned you must be referring to the promises to Abraham and the prophecies of the Jews returning. I'm sure yoj dont believe in any of that, so I think we should simply stick with the history from the Balfour Declaration on.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Right and how much owned by the Arabs?

On 1 April 1945, the British administration's statistics showed that Jewish buyers had legal ownership over approximately 5.67% of the Mandate's total land area, while state domain (a large part of which was held in hereditary lease or had undetermined ownership) was 46%.

By power of deduction, that would suggest that just under 50% of the land was owned by local Arab landowners.

By the end of the British Mandate period in 1948, Jewish farmers had cultivated 425,450 dunams of land, while Arab farmers had 5,484,700 dunams of land under cultivation.

 

[JosephZ]

Ive told you, reading the histories. There is quite a bit of it. How on earth would I know all that I've shared if I didn't?

Can you provide sources? Where you have read about this history?

The Arabs only actually owned about 10% of the land. The Jews owned about 8%. Britian owned the rest.

Palestinians owned around 22% of the land, Jews around 6%, and Britain, 0%. Privately owned land was roughly 54% of Palestine, with the remaining 46% being public or state-owned.

And how much was that? What percentage of all the land was owned by the Arabs and what percentage was owned by the Jews when the land was partitioned?

Palestinian Arabs and other non-Jewish groups owned around 94% of the privately owned land in Palestine. Jewish ownership accounted for about 5.67%. The rest of the land was either public or state owned.

Most of the usable public land was occupied by or leased to Palestinian Arabs but not formally titled to them. However, this land was able to be occupied and even passed down to family members as long as the land was being used and the taxes were being paid.

The public lands of Palestine include lands varying greatly not only in physical characteristics, but also in the extent and nature of the ownership and control of Government in them.

Muslim emperors and Turkish sultans of the past had made grants of land as mulk; and by the Ottoman Land Code, sites of houses in towns can be mulk; but generally speaking land privately owned is held on what Ottoman law called the miri tenure, which resembles a lease of indefinite duration, in which the rental, so to speak, is represented by the obligation to pay land taxes and land registry fees. When the miri interest is alienated, the ultimate ownership called raqaba is retained by the State.

Most of the land owned by the State is registered as in the miri category but as the Government owns the raqaba as well, it might as well be called mulk except that perhaps this might cause complications when Government desired to alienate it by way of grant, sale or lease. The "owners " who hold land by miri tenure can only exercise such rights as can be shown to have been accorded to them by the State, and these rights are laid down in the Ottoman law. The right of succession to these rights is prescribed by law. Failure of successors brings the grant to an end and the land becomes mahlul and returns to the State. Theoretically, failure to cultivate also causes the grant to lapse and the usufruct (tasarruf) to return to the State. In actual practice there is in Palestine little of this land (miri mahlul) which becomes part of the public domain by escheatment in this way;

A Survey of Palestine Volume 2

 

[BCP1928]

Ive never claimed it was a religious war. I claimed it was hatred for the Jews in general.

So your assertion is that Muslims hate all Jews everywhere and now they are fighting with some of them--but somehow it's not a religious war. Any criticism or protest of Netanyahu's actions Gaza--even though plenty of Jews are protesting and criticizing-- is **antisemitism** not just anti-Israeli, but somehow it's still not a religious war. Well, it is not a religious war--or at least it didn't start as one--even though many on the Right seem to want to make it one.

They didnt want the Jews there.

Maybe not, but they certainly didn't want a Western style secular state populated by European immigrants.

The Arabs were not indigenous to the area.

There is a statement you will have to support. I don't think you want to take responsibility for a clanger like that yourself.

They did not own all the land. They barely owned more than the Jews. Most of the land wasnt theirs to own. The land wasnt theirs to decide what to do with. The land belonged to Britain. And then Britian and the UN decided what to do with it. A resolution was passed. Israel decided it was rhe right time. They claimed independence, offered to allow the Arabs to stay and keep the property they owned. Then the Arabs attacked them. There were other attacks on the Jews earlier due to even the discussions of allowing the Jews to stay and have a country. The Arabs turned down the offer and attacked.

Anti-semetic behaviors. Forgoe all offers of their own nation state and attack Israel instead. And they haven't stopped since.

As far as Hagee or Robertson is concerned you must be referring to the promises to Abraham and the prophecies of the Jews returning.

I just want to make sure none of that crap is driving our foreign policy. That's why I want to know where you got your opinions about the war

I'm sure you dont believe in any of that, so I think we should simply stick with the history from the Balfour Declaration on.

I can sure see why.

 

[rjs330]

View attachment 364986



By power of deduction, that would suggest that just under 50% of the land was owned by local Arab landowners.

Sorry but that map is misleading. The Arabs did not own 50% of the land. The majority of tge land was public land and not titled to the Arabs. The actual amount of land titled and owned by the Arabs, particularly in the land mandated to the Jews both by the League of Nations and the UN was about 8 %.

The majority of land the Arabs were on was public land which is government land. Arabs were able to lease land from the government but they didn't own it.

The Arabs in the region didn't buy and title land becauae they didn't want to pay taxes. There were so many of them that were tribal and Bedouins who traveled around from place to place. It was a pretty primitive region.

In May 1948 the State of Israel was established in only part of the area allotted by the original Agreement set forth in the 1920 San Remo Conference and its implementation by the League of Nations Mandate. 8.6 per cent of the land was owned by Jews and 3.3 per cent by Israeli Arabs, while 16.9 per cent had been abandoned by Arab owners who imprudently heeded the call from neighboring Arab countries to "get out of the way" while the invading Arab armies made short shrift of Israel. The rest of the land—over 70 per cent—had been vested in Appendix 2 127 the Mandatory Power as a trustee for the Jewish people, and accordingly reverted to the State of Israel as its legal heir. (Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Government Printer, p. 257.)

The greater part of this 70 per cent consisted of the Negev, some 3,144,250 acres all told, or close to 50 per cent of the 6,580,000 acres in all of Mandatory Palestine. Known as Crown or State Lands, this was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory, inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey. In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel.

 

[JosephZ]

The Arabs in the region didn't buy and title land becauae they didn't want to pay taxes. There were so many of them that were tribal and Bedouins who traveled around from place to place. It was a pretty primitive region.

In May 1948 the State of Israel was established in only part of the area allotted by the original Agreement set forth in the 1920 San Remo Conference and its implementation by the League of Nations Mandate. 8.6 per cent of the land was owned by Jews and 3.3 per cent by Israeli Arabs, while 16.9 per cent had been abandoned by Arab owners who imprudently heeded the call from neighboring Arab countries to "get out of the way" while the invading Arab armies made short shrift of Israel. The rest of the land—over 70 per cent—had been vested in Appendix 2 127 the Mandatory Power as a trustee for the Jewish people, and accordingly reverted to the State of Israel as its legal heir. (Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine, 1946, British Government Printer, p. 257.)

The greater part of this 70 per cent consisted of the Negev, some 3,144,250 acres all told, or close to 50 per cent of the 6,580,000 acres in all of Mandatory Palestine. Known as Crown or State Lands, this was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory, inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey. In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel.

Can you provide a link for this?