'Love your neighbor less than yourself'; Theologians push back on JD Vance’s view of ‘ordered love’

[BPPLEE]

Meet the new Pope. Same as the old Pope.

In February, Prevost amplified an op-ed published in the National Catholic Reporter in which author Kat Armas criticized the vice president (who converted to Catholicism in 2019) over his remarks suggesting there was a hierarchy of Christian priorities. Vance told Fox News in late January: "There is a Christian concept that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens, and then after that, prioritize the rest of the world. A lot of the far left has completely inverted that."

Prevost's tweet repeated the headline of the op-ed: "JD Vance is wrong: Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others."

1Timothy 5:8
But if someone does not provide for his own, especially his own family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[rjs330]

No where does Jesus tell us to prioritize our love. However he also does not command us that our actions must be equal when showing our love.

For example. If my child is starving and an illegal is starving and I can only feed one, then I'm going to feed my child.

When knew looks all through scripture from start to finish we see that there is no command to show love equally to all.

Save a family member or save an illegal alien. Save your family memeber. Its okay. There is no command to do so, but its perfectly okay if you do.

 

[Fantine]

Speaking truth to power is part of a Pope's job, and had Jesus been walking the earth today he would have taken the Trump administration to task as well.
No longer is giving lip-service to being pro-life enough
while having a platform that jeopardizes life on every continent, eliminating US AID, ending climate change remediation, deporting many thousands, demanding "protection" funds in exchange for helping a valiant nation from Russian aggression.

 

[FireDragon76]

Speaking truth to power is part of a Pope's job, and had Jesus been walking the earth today he would have taken the Trump administration to task as well.
No longer is giving lip-service to being pro-life enough
while having a platform that jeopardizes life on every continent, eliminating US AID, ending climate change remediation, deporting many thousands, demanding "protection" funds in exchange for helping a valiant nation from Russian aggression.

“The unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.” - Pastor Dave Barnhart, UMC​

Hard words about the performativity of alot of activism around banning abortion, but essentially true. It's all about gravitating towards symbols of innocence and purity, and ignoring the neighbor right in front of you.

 

[RileyG]

View attachment 364704

MAGA MELTS DOWN OVER NEW POPE’S ANTI-TRUMP, PRO-IMMIGRANT SOCIAL MEDIA​

She's not even a Christian, I don't even know if she is an observant Jew. What makes her an expert on the new Pope and Christian theology?

 

[FireDragon76]

She's not even a Christian, I don't even know if she is an observant Jew. What makes her an expert on the new Pope and Christian theology?

I think some people would be surprised to actually read the Bible and find that Jesus was quite "Woke" when it came to talking about poverty and wealth.

The Bible is so clear about poverty that when people took Martin Luther's advice and read the Bible for themselves, it lead to widespread peasant uprisings against landowners, as they quickly realized the medieval social order rested on a number of convenient fictions (convenient for the feudal lords, anyways) that had little to do with anything Jesus preached.

 

[BPPLEE]

Speaking truth to power is part of a Pope's job, and had Jesus been walking the earth today he would have taken the Trump administration to task as well.
No longer is giving lip-service to being pro-life enough
while having a platform that jeopardizes life on every continent, eliminating US AID, ending climate change remediation, deporting many thousands, demanding "protection" funds in exchange for helping a valiant nation from Russian aggression.

I don't recall reading anything about Jesus criticizing the government. Maybe you can share some of these passages?

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't recall reading anything about Jesus criticizing the government. Maybe you can share some of these passages?

He called Herod a fox.

The reason Jesus and John the Baptist didn't criticize the Romans as they did Herod, was because Herod claimed to be a Jew and should have known better.

 

[BPPLEE]

He called Herod a fox.

The reason Jesus and John the Baptist didn't criticize the Romans as they did Herod, was because Herod claimed to be a Jew and should have known better.

He called Herod a Fox when he was told that Herod wanted to kill him

 

[Michie]

Politics are not the faith. Jesus did not teach or act out political action. He called his followers to allegiance with the furthering of the Kingdom of God as the number 1 priority. Christians standing up against those in power for the vulnerable does not turn Jesus or the faith into political activists. It is the world and society that acted politically against Him. They were concerned about the earthly kingdom while He was working for the heavenly kingdom. They crucified Him to protect it. He was crucified because He was offering fallen humanity eternal life. It’s what He came to do.

 

[FireDragon76]

He called Herod a Fox when he was told that Herod wanted to kill him

And you don't think that has something to do with what Jesus and John the Baptist were doing, that Herod saw them as political threats?

In ancient Rome, any form of resistance against the status quo was seen as inherently political. Politics in the ancient world had broader implications than who you vote for. That idea in the ancient Roman world was ridiculous anyways, the plebeians even of Rome had minimal representation in the Senate, and liberal politics as we know it today was over a millenium and a half in the future. Indeed, our modern idea of politics as a separate sphere from culture owes alot to early Protestants notion of the "Two Kingdoms" and orders of creation.

 

[essentialsaltes]

She's not even a Christian, I don't even know if she is an observant Jew. What makes her an expert on the new Pope and Christian theology?

She's an expert in MAGA theology, and she knows heresy when she sees it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Meet the new Pope. Same as the old Pope.

In February, Prevost amplified an op-ed published in the National Catholic Reporter in which author Kat Armas criticized the vice president (who converted to Catholicism in 2019) over his remarks suggesting there was a hierarchy of Christian priorities. Vance told Fox News in late January: "There is a Christian concept that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens, and then after that, prioritize the rest of the world. A lot of the far left has completely inverted that."

Prevost's tweet repeated the headline of the op-ed: "JD Vance is wrong: Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others."

Maybe Jesus doesn't ask us to explicitly rank our love for others, but with all of the confusing interpretive hullabaloo that comes from both the Maga Right and the Woke Left, I'm not sure where to file the following clip of an ECLA (Lutheran) pastor applying her version of Critical Theory to the passage from Mark chapter 7 in which Jesus seemingly disrespects the identity of a Gentile woman in need.

sTRaNge StuF.f. ....... Do I swerve Left, or do I swerve Right to avoid the interpretive collision?

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe Jesus doesn't ask us to explicitly rank our love for others, but with all of the confusing interpretive hullabaloo that comes from both the Maga Right and the Woke Left, I'm not sure where to file the following clip of an ECLA (Lutheran) pastor applying her version of Critical Theory to the passage from Mark chapter 7 in which Jesus seemingly disrespects the identity of a Gentile woman in need.

sTRaNge StuF.f. ....... Do I swerve Left, or do I swerve Right to avoid the interpretive collision?

The spinning camera alone bugs me and I find that offensive.

The story of the Syrophoenician woman is a bit tricky, and that's an understatement, and I have had sermons similar to that in churches I have gone to, usually from guest pastors. But I have learned to be less reactive to that, and less dismissive of the pastors that preach those sorts of sermons, and to have more compassion and understanding. Trying to parse out Jesus "being a bigot" vs. Jesus exposing bigotry is tricky and requires setting aside some of our own cultural assumptions and stepping into a very alien world. For one thing, much of western Christianity has a very sentimental view of Jesus, that he only had nice things to say to people all the time and was cuddly like a teddy bear. When in reality, the world he lived in was more like modern day Bedouin Arabs, than 20th century liberal Protestants. This misreading owes alot to the peculiarities of western Christian piety, of course, but that can make it harder to understand Jesus in his historical context.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The spinning camera alone bugs me and I find that offensive.

The story of the Syrophoenician woman is a bit tricky, and that's an understatement, and I have had sermons similar to that in churches I have gone to.

So have I. In fact, I very clearly remember a long, pre-wokish sermon preached by an assistant pastor at a Christian Church-Instrumental (the more conservative side of the Disciples of Christ) I attended back in the late 1990s. He was essentially saying the same thing this female pastor was saying................ of course, many of the people in that congregation were shocked by his apparent infusion of cognitive dissonance.

But I have learned to be less reactive to that, and less dismissive of the pastors that preach those sorts of sermons, and to have more compassion and understanding.

I do too. BUT at the same time, I've always realized that the New Testament "message" at some point requires one to chew a few nails. My compassion and understanding comes in knowing just how difficult it really is to chew a few nails.

Trying to parse out Jesus being a bigot vs. Jesus exposing bigotry is tricky and requires setting aside some of our own cultural assumptions and stepping into a very alien world

I completely agree, and I wish more people could be more informed (and sensitive) to the deeper nuances that are selectively placed in the New Testament texts.

For one thing, much of western Christianity has a very sentimental view of Jesus, that he only had nice things to say to people all the time and was cuddly like a teddy bear. When in reality, the world he lived in was more like modern day bedouin Arabs, than to 19th century liberal Protestants. Alot of this owes alot to the peculiarities of western Christian piety, of course, but that can make it harder to understand Jesus in his historical context.

Agreed. Along the way, I have to admit that Ethics is a convoluted field of study, one not easily parsed out by either the Left or the Right.

 

[FireDragon76]

So have I. In fact, I very clearly remember a long, pre-wokish sermon preached by an assistant pastor at a Christian Church-Instrumental (the more conservative side of the Disciples of Christ) I attended back in the late 1990s. He was essentially saying the same thing this female pastor was saying................ of course, many of the people in that congregation were shocked by his apparent infusion of cognitive dissonance.

That doesn't surprise me. It really has nothing to do with church politics, and alot more to do with culture. The frequent butchering of the Syrophoenician woman story is a peeve of mine as well.

Also, I think attacking the pastor for being a woman is uncalled for- there are many Christian denominations where calling female pastors is a settled issue and integral to our identity and Christian witness. The times I have heard this passage has been preached badly, it's been from men more often than from women. I think many women, particularly older women from a certain generation, can intuitively better understand what this story is about.

 

[BPPLEE]

And you don't think that has something to do with what Jesus and John the Baptist were doing, that Herod saw them as political threats?

In ancient Rome, any form of resistance against the status quo was seen as inherently political. Politics in the ancient world had broader implications than who you vote for. That idea in the ancient Roman world was ridiculous anyways, the plebeians even of Rome had minimal representation in the Senate, and liberal politics as we know it today was over a millenium and a half in the future. Indeed, our modern idea of politics as a separate sphere from culture owes alot to early Protestants notion of the "Two Kingdoms" and orders of creation.

John the Baptist criticized Herod for adultery, I don't see Jesus and John the Baptist as political activists

 

[FireDragon76]

John the Baptist criticized Herod for adultery, I don't see Jesus and John the Baptist as political activists

The Kingdom of God is not just about "going to heaven when you die". That's what medieval Christianity became (and still affects the vision of some, no doubt), but that's not what Jesus meant by the "Kingdom of God".

 

[Hans Blaster]

Maybe Jesus doesn't ask us to explicitly rank our love for others, but with all of the confusing interpretive hullabaloo that comes from both the Maga Right and the Woke Left, I'm not sure where to file the following clip of an ECLA (Lutheran) pastor applying her version of Critical Theory to the passage from Mark chapter 7 in which Jesus seemingly disrespects the identity of a Gentile woman in need.

sTRaNge StuF.f. ....... Do I swerve Left, or do I swerve Right to avoid the interpretive collision?

I don't know why you posted this. The image rotated and I had to rotate my computer to keep it upright. That was bad and you should feel bad for posting it.

I don't know this passage, nor am I good at metaphors, so I don't know if her equating the children with the "Children of Israel" etc., is relevant or not or if that is a standard interpretation or not.

The video ends before she reaches her conclusion, so it is not clear what the point of the sermon will actually be. (Sermons tended to have rather opaque points until the end. So much bad writing...)

Both your post and the title of the video indicate politics, but the sermon's incompleteness makes that connection only an assertion at this point. I also don't know what the theology of the various Lutheran denominations are, so the label doesn't settle anything.

The one thing that is clear from the posted clip is that the person who posted the video to YouTube is a raging misogynist. Whether she is "woke" or not, or a bad preacher or not (seen no evidence yet she is good) has nothing to do whether women should preach in church. (I've seen that claim a lot, and this is the first time I've ever seen it claimed that women should preach because they'd be bad at it, theologically wrong or politically wrong, just that it is forbidden.

 

[BPPLEE]

The Kingdom of God is not just about "going to heaven when you die". That's what medieval Christianity became (and still affects the vision of some, no doubt), but that's not what Jesus meant by the "Kingdom of God".

I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion but Jesus said
"My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here."