Christian, Jewish groups sue Trump admin. over move to allow immigration raids in churches

[Tuur]

There are plenty of commandments in the Bible advocating for aliens and sojourners.

People that use the Bible to advocate for cruelty and indifference to those in need are simply engaged in a kind of legalism and hardness of heart that is a grave spiritual matter that threatens their soul.

Yes, and it would be nice to see them cited, especially since the argument presented for not following US law in regards to immigration is what Peter gave to the Sanhedrin. It's going to sound snarky, but I can't recall a commandment that the entry of a stranger into a country is not to be prohibited. Would think that a test would be whether the same passages can be used to justify harboring a bank robber, and no, that's not being snarky, either.

 

[Tuur]

Interesting:

US Immigrant Fee is currently $235 US. That was courtesy of NOLO.

Human smugglers charge as much as $14,000 to assist in illegal entry. $3,000 to $4,000 seems to be the average. Thake that with a grain of salt.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, and it would be nice to see them cited,

especially since the argument presented for not following US law in regards to immigration is what Peter gave to the Sanhedrin. It's going to sound snarky, but I can't recall a commandment that the entry of a stranger into a country is not to be prohibited.

This isn't a question of immigration law in the abstract, but how churches respond to people they encounter who are in need. Undocumented immigrants are our neighbors, too.

Would think that a test would be whether the same passages can be used to justify harboring a bank robber, and no, that's not being snarky, either.

I've already pointed out that being in the country without a green card is not a crime, so you are making a false analogy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Wrong. It's part of the US Code, period. It's Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter 2, Part VIII, Section 1325. See:

Violation of civil code is not a crime. Crime has a specific meaning. What you are describing is more like a parking ticket. People that get a parking ticket are not criminals. Neither are people that don't have a green card.

Undocumented Immigrants Are Not Criminals | U.S. Immigration Law Counsel

At US-ILC, we listen, we care, we deliver: Let our 89 years of combined experience help you navigate the complexities of immigration law. In this p.

us-ilc.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

Compassion is one thing; aiding and abetting is another. Suppose a hungry man breaks into a store to steal food. Would you help him do so? If you didn't, would that mean you had no compassion? What, then, of the command "Do not steal?"

Where, then, is the command that nations shall have no borders? Where is the command that we are to help people illegally enter the US? Is it not better to help someone who desires to come to the US legally do so?

What is someone who harbors an illegal immigrant actually aiding them in? Helping them to get a job so they can actually afford to apply for a green card? And maybe give them a place to stay and something to eat until they can get on their feet? You can’t compare entering the country illegally with stealing, they’re not the same crime. And to answer your question, no you don’t help them steal food YOU GIVE THEM FOOD WHICH YOU WOULD CONSIDER AIDING AND ABETTING.

 

[FireDragon76]

This policy would have a profoundly chilling effect on ministries in our churches that engage in outreach to the wider community, some of whom might be undocumented or targeted by ICE on account of their ethnicity. Churches need to be spaces that people feel safe to enter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Who said they’re going to church to evade ICE? Throughout the scriptures God always took the side of those who placed His laws ABOVE secular laws. All of the apostles died as martyrs because they refused to comply with secular laws. So laws that are written by the people do not overrule laws written by God.

US Laws were based on Scripture, if you care to look it up.

God took the side of the poor and those at the bottom of the social ladder. He didn't
take the side of criminals who rape, murder and rob people. In fact, such people who
disobeyed the Ten Commandments were shut out of the Kingdom of Heaven, per
the teachings of Jesus.

 

[FireDragon76]

US Laws were based on Scripture, if you care to look it up.

US law is based on the English Common Law tradition, not the Bible.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

US law is based on the English Common Law tradition, not the Bible.

The founding fathers quoted the Book of Exodus in establishing the idea for the republic.

The Israelites who fled Egypt did so in order to achieve liberty. God told Moses to have them
elect judges from each tribe to handle governing the demands of the people.

Franklin proposed that a US Seal which showed the Israelites fleeing from Egypt.

Benjamin Franklin's Great Seal Design

'Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God' is the motto Franklin suggested for the reverse side of the U.S. Seal (1776).

www.greatseal.com

Oz Guinness, an English author and theologian, draws on the Bible's constructive influence on America's founding ideals.
Read his book, "The Magna Carter of Humanity," to learn the history behind United States.
He sees the Exodus of the Israelites as the original revolution of freedom and provides quotes by the founding fathers to
confirm this,

 

[FireDragon76]

The founding fathers quoted the Book of Exodus in establishing the idea for the republic.

The Israelites who fled Egypt did so in order to achieve liberty. God told Moses to have them
elect judges from each tribe to handle governing the demands of the people.

Franklin and Jefferson proposed that a US Seal which showed the Israelites fleeing from Egypt.

Benjamin Franklin's Great Seal Design

'Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God' is the motto Franklin suggested for the reverse side of the U.S. Seal (1776).

www.greatseal.com

Oz Guinness, an English author and theologian, draws on the Bible's constructive influence on America's founding ideals.
Read his book, "The Magna Carter of Humanity," to learn the history behind United States.
He sees the Exodus of the Israelites as the original revolution of freedom and provides quotes by the founding fathers to
confirm this,

They had a variety of influences. We shouldn't overplay the Bible's role. The US founders were generally influenced by the English Enlightenment, especially John Locke and his notion of the social contract (as opposed to the divine right of kings), rather than by religious or mystical ideals.

The first warship built in the US was actually named the Oliver Cromwell, named after the 17th century general who overthrew the British monarchy and established a republic in Britain.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They had a variety of influences. We shouldn't overplay the Bible's role. The US founders were generally influenced by the English Enlightenment, especially John Locke and his notion of the social contract (as opposed to the divine right of kings), rather than by religious or mystical ideals.

The first warship built in the US was actually named the Oliver Cromwell, named after the 17th century general who overthrew the British monarchy and established a republic in Britain.

Read the book, the book of Exodus was used and believed in by the founding fathers.

Heck, read the Declaration of Independence. That document set up the spirit for which
the US Constitution was originally based on.

 

[BNR32FAN]

US Laws were based on Scripture, if you care to look it up.

God took the side of the poor and those at the bottom of the social ladder. He didn't
take the side of criminals who rape, murder and rob people. In fact, such people who
disobeyed the Ten Commandments were shut out of the Kingdom of Heaven, per
the teachings of Jesus.

And I’ve already said that I have no problem with hardened criminals being arrested and deported. Nobody in this entire thread has any problem with that. What Christians in this thread have a problem with is the lack of compassion for people who are living in poverty who are in need of help who just want to come here and get a job to support their family and getting the door slammed in their face by people pretending to be Christians, not because these people have committed any moral crimes but because of a technicality that they can’t afford to pay USCIS for the application fees to come here legally. These false professors want to send these people who are in need right back into poverty because they have no compassion for their situation.

 

[Lost Witness]

And I’ve already said that I have no problem with hardened criminals being arrested and deported. Nobody in this entire thread has any problem with that. What Christians in this thread have a problem with is the lack of compassion for people who are living in poverty who are in need of help who just want to come here and get a job to support their family and getting the door slammed in their face by people pretending to be Christians, not because these people have committed any moral crimes but because of a technicality that they can’t afford to pay USCIS for the application fees to come here legally. These false professors want to send these people who are in need right back into poverty because they have no compassion for their situation.

How we feel about something doesn't change the fact that theres laws we ought to follow.

 

[Lost Witness]

They had a variety of influences. We shouldn't overplay the Bible's role. The US founders were generally influenced by the English Enlightenment, especially John Locke and his notion of the social contract (as opposed to the divine right of kings), rather than by religious or mystical ideals.

The first warship built in the US was actually named the Oliver Cromwell, named after the 17th century general who overthrew the British monarchy and established a republic in Britain.

or underplaying it..

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And I’ve already said that I have no problem with hardened criminals being arrested and deported. Nobody in this entire thread has any problem with that. What Christians in this thread have a problem with is the lack of compassion for people who are living in poverty who are in need of help who just want to come here and get a job to support their family and getting the door slammed in their face by people pretending to be Christians, not because these people have committed any moral crimes but because of a technicality that they can’t afford to pay USCIS for the application fees to come here legally. These false professors want to send these people who are in need right back into poverty because they have no compassion for their situation.

Actually, it's Christians who provide compassion, food, shelter and clothing to the poor. Catholic Charities, Mercy Corps, and others are examples.

People who came into the country illegally are a problem, and Biden opening the border brought millions across the southern border over the four years he was president. He even provided illegals an app to download to their phones while they were on the Mexico side of the border. The APP gave them the form for them to apply for asylum, which they got within 24 hours. They were allowed into the US with a TPS visa, which made them then legal to be here. In other words, for Biden to drop the illegal immigration rate, all he had to do is make them legal.

 

[Clare73]

How we feel about something doesn't change the fact that theres laws we ought to follow.

Christians are to obey the law of the land (Ro 13:1-2) unless it requires us to break a commandment, at which point we must be ready to pay the penalty for disobedience of the law.

 

[Lost Witness]

Christians are to obey the law of the land (Ro 13:1-2) unless it requires us to break a commandment, at which point we must be ready to pay the penalty for disobedience of the law.

what about preaching the word of God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

How we feel about something doesn't change the fact that theres laws we ought to follow.

Which brings us right back to the original question, do secular laws override God’s laws?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually, it's Christians who provide compassion, food, shelter and clothing to the poor. Catholic Charities, Mercy Corps, and others are examples.

People who came into the country illegally are a problem, and Biden opening the border brought millions across the southern border over the four years he was president. He even provided illegals an app to download to their phones while they were on the Mexico side of the border. The APP gave them the form for them to apply for asylum, which they got within 24 hours. They were allowed into the US with a TPS visa, which made them then legal to be here. In other words, for Biden to drop the illegal immigration rate, all he had to do is make them legal.

24 hours? Are you kidding me? Then why were thousands of people camping on the Mexican side of the boarder for months if they were approved in 24 hours? You can’t hide that fact. And if that’s all they had to do then why are you saying they came here illegally, IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO ENTER JUST BY APPLYING ON AN APP AND WAITING 24 HOURS?!! Do you see how ridiculous your argument sounds? Apply some common sense!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christians are to obey the law of the land (Ro 13:1-2) unless it requires us to break a commandment, at which point we must be ready to pay the penalty for disobedience of the law.

Yeah well Matthew 25:31-46 comes to mind.