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Xeno.of.athens

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Legalism is an excessive focus on strict adherence to laws, rules, or rituals, sometimes at the expense of the deeper spiritual relationship with God. It can manifest as the belief that salvation or God's love can be earned solely through good works or obedience to religious laws, rather than through grace and faith. The Church teaches that while good works and obedience are important, they are a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

This perspective emphasises that God's love and salvation are gifts, and our actions should flow from gratitude and love for Him, rather than a fear of punishment or a desire to "earn" His favour.
 

SabbathBlessings

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Legalism is actually depending on our works instead of depending on God's Exo 32:16 Psa 78:7 depending on our own righteousness instead of depending on God's Psa 119:172 depending on our sanctification Isa 66:17 instead of God's Eze 20:12 John 17:17 not being connected to the Vine and abiding in Him John 15:4-10 1 John 2:6 1 John 3:24
 
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Hoping2

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Legalism is an excessive focus on strict adherence to laws, rules, or rituals, sometimes at the expense of the deeper spiritual relationship with God. It can manifest as the belief that salvation or God's love can be earned solely through good works or obedience to religious laws, rather than through grace and faith. The Church teaches that while good works and obedience are important, they are a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

This perspective emphasises that God's love and salvation are gifts, and our actions should flow from gratitude and love for Him, rather than a fear of punishment or a desire to "earn" His favour.
Unfortunately, what was once a term for those who wanted to live under the Laws of Moses, with all of its 400+ rules and reg's, has been twisted to include almost any obedience to God at all.
Even repentance from sin has become anathema to those screaming "Legalist!".

So when anyone brings up legalism, I must ask, "which version of it do they refer to" ?
(You've made yourself clear.)
 
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St_Worm2

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Legalism is an excessive focus on strict adherence to laws, rules, or rituals, sometimes at the expense of the deeper spiritual relationship with God. It can manifest as the belief that salvation or God's love can be earned ~solely~ through good works or obedience to religious laws, rather than through grace and faith. The Church teaches that while good works and obedience are important, they are a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.
Hello Xeno.of.athens, is it possible for us to "earn" our salvation from God (even in part), and if so, how do we go about doing that? (e.g. Romans 5:8-10; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-10; Hebrews 9:22)

Also, concerning the other idea, of God's "love" needing to be "earned" by us (again, even in part), is that the way His love for us really works?

The Bible tells us that God's love for us is just like He is, "from everlasting" .. e.g. Jeremiah 31:3, but are you saying that if we want to continue in His love moving forward that it (His love for us) is now based on some sort of a quid pro quo with Him, at best? That it must be "earned" by us, even in some small way? Surely not.

Finally, is this idea, that we need to "earn" our salvation and/or God's love something that the Orthodox Church teaches? I hope not, because I'm not comfortable with either idea.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Finally, is this idea, that we need to "earn" our salvation and/or God's love something that the Orthodox Church teaches?
no, but be sure to ask an Orthodox Christian.
 
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Lukaris

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I tend to believe what St. Paul tells us in Colossians 1:10-23 is that salvation is by grace in a life lived by faith is how Orthodoxy sees it.
 
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St_Worm2

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no, but be sure to ask an Orthodox Christian.
I see that you are Catholic, but I thought that you were Greek Orthodox not that long ago?

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly?
 
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Soyeong

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Legalism is an excessive focus on strict adherence to laws, rules, or rituals, sometimes at the expense of the deeper spiritual relationship with God. It can manifest as the belief that salvation or God's love can be earned solely through good works or obedience to religious laws, rather than through grace and faith. The Church teaches that while good works and obedience are important, they are a response to God's grace, not a means to earn it.

This perspective emphasises that God's love and salvation are gifts, and our actions should flow from gratitude and love for Him, rather than a fear of punishment or a desire to "earn" His favour.
Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so do you consider that that to be legalism?

God's way is the way to know Him by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, which is the way to eternal life. For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to Him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to by teaching him to walk in His way that He has Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because He never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to have a deep spiritual relationship with God and Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, which is His gift of eternal life. However, someone can go through the motions of obeying God's law while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits of God that it was given to teach us how to express. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I see that you are Catholic, but I thought that you were Greek Orthodox not that long ago?

Perhaps I am not remembering correctly?
I've never been Orthodox
 
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Soyeong

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Unfortunately, what was once a term for those who wanted to live under the Laws of Moses, with all of its 400+ rules and reg's, has been twisted to include almost any obedience to God at all.
Even repentance from sin has become anathema to those screaming "Legalist!".

So when anyone brings up legalism, I must ask, "which version of it do they refer to" ?
(You've made yourself clear.)
If God is a legalist for graciously giving the Law of Moses and Jesus is a legalist for graciously spending his ministry teaching us to obey it by word and by example, then we should also be legalists, though that is not what think it means. It is not legalist to think that the law of our country should be obeyed just as it is not legalism to think that the laws of our God should be obeyed and it is not legalism to think that one or many laws should be obeyed, but rather someone can be legalistic just in regard to one law when they obey it without regard to its intent.
 
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Hoping2

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If God is a legalist for graciously giving the Law of Moses and Jesus is a legalist for graciously spending his ministry teaching us to obey it by word and by example, then we should also be legalists,
Jesus fought against what we would call legalism.
He didn't care what men ate, or that work was done on a sabbath.
He stoned no prostitutes, and healed Gentiles !
though that is not what think it means.
I'm not sure what you mean.
It is not legalist to think that the law of our country should be obeyed
It would be legalism, if the laws were being kept for salvation.
Providing abortions, would be one instance of that.
just as it is not legalism to think that the laws of our God should be obeyed and it is not legalism to think that one or many laws should be obeyed, but rather someone can be legalistic just in regard to one law when they obey it without regard to its intent.
If one thinks they have to avoid ham in order to be judged faithful on the last day, or to tithe, to be saved, he is a legalist.
Unfortunately, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and even resisting temptation to be found innocent on the day of judgement, have been swept up into the realm of legalism.

"Legalism", has been turned into a weapon by the "Faith alone" crowds.
 
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Soyeong

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Jesus fought against what we would call legalism.
He didn't care what men ate, or that work was done on a sabbath.
He stoned no prostitutes, and healed Gentiles !
It should not make sense to you to think that God's word made flesh fought against God's word instead of thinking that he embodied it by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it.

Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, including saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, which includes affirming everything that God spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:31-33. In Deuteronomy 12:32, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so Jesus did not do that. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the law, so Jesus did not do that. So there isn't any room to interpret Jesus as being in disagreement with what God spoke in Deuteronomy 14 in regard to dietary restrictions.

Some of God's laws appear to conflict, such as when God commanded to rest on the Sabbath while also commanding priest to make offerings on the Sabbath, however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent. So God commanded for work to be done on the Sabbath, which means that not all form of works are prohibited by the Sabbath, however, that does not mean that no forms of works are prohibited by the Sabbath.

Some Pharisees had reasoned that it is unlawful to do work on the Sabbath and that healing is work therefore it is unlawful to heal on the Sabbath, however, we are also commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves, we would not be doing that if we refuse to heal them, and no commandment was intended to be understood as preventing the greatest two commandments from being obeyed, which is why it was lawful for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath.

God's law instructs that both the man and the woman accused of adultery be brought before a judge to do a thorough investigation, that no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, and that the witnesses are to throw the first done, so if Jesus had stoned her, then he would have sinned in transgression of God's law.

I'm not sure what you mean.

It would be legalism, if the laws were being kept for salvation.
Providing abortions, would be one instance of that.
The position that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded is not legalism. The position that we should do that in order to earn our salvation would be legalism because it is not in accordance with the intent of the law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to dow hat is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

If one thinks they have to avoid ham in order to be judged faithful on the last day, or to tithe, to be saved, he is a legalist.
Unfortunately, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and even resisting temptation to be found innocent on the day of judgement, have been swept up into the realm of legalism.

"Legalism", has been turned into a weapon by the "Faith alone" crowds.
Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) and God's law prohibits eating ham, so it is therefore a sin to do that.
 
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Hoping2

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It should not make sense to you to think that God's word made flesh fought against God's word instead of thinking that he embodied it by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it.
First, it wasn't God's word that was made flesh.
It was the Word Himself that was made flesh.
And He didn't fight against His Father.
He fought against the indiscriminate enforcement of it in opposition to true judgement.
Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, including saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, which includes affirming everything that God spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy 5:31-33. In Deuteronomy 12:32, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so Jesus did not do that. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed His children to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying the law, so Jesus did not do that. So there isn't any room to interpret Jesus as being in disagreement with what God spoke in Deuteronomy 14 in regard to dietary restrictions.
Are we to stone adulterers now, in the NT ?
Some of God's laws appear to conflict, such as when God commanded to rest on the Sabbath while also commanding priest to make offerings on the Sabbath, however, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by disobeying one of the two commands no matter what they chose to do, but that the lesser command was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater command from being obeyed.
Nicely put.
This is why Jesus said in Matthew 12:5-7 that priests who did their duties on the Sabbath were held innocent, why David and his men were held innocent, and why Jesus defended his disciples as being innocent. So God commanded for work to be done on the Sabbath, which means that not all form of works are prohibited by the Sabbath, however, that does not mean that no forms of works are prohibited by the Sabbath.
"Legalists" would now demand exact attention to each and every Law, no matter the circumstances.
Some Pharisees had reasoned that it is unlawful to do work on the Sabbath and that healing is work therefore it is unlawful to heal on the Sabbath, however, we are also commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves, we would not be doing that if we refuse to heal them, and no commandment was intended to be understood as preventing the greatest two commandments from being obeyed, which is why it was lawful for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath.
"Legalists" would defer to the written commands.
Therefore, the accusers of Jesus were legalists !
God's law instructs that both the man and the woman accused of adultery be brought before a judge to do a thorough investigation, that no one is to be put to death without at least two or three witnesses, and that the witnesses are to throw the first done, so if Jesus had stoned her, then he would have sinned in transgression of God's law.
Can't say that I recall where that was written.
Can you refer me to the scrip' saying that the witness was to throw the first stone ?
The position that followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded is not legalism.
I agree.
The position that we should do that in order to earn our salvation would be legalism because it is not in accordance with the intent of the law.
I agree, if by "law", you mean the law of liberty in Christ.
In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to dow hat is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.
I agree.
Motive determines a lot.
Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) and God's law prohibits eating ham, so it is therefore a sin to do that.
All unrighteousness is sin. (1 John 5:17)
Eating anything sanctified by the word of God and prayer is not prohibited. (1 Tim 4:5)
But if it is a sin to you...don't eat it.

This is why we need to ask "which" legalism is being discussed.
Yours is relevant to OT teachings that are now passed away.
Paul fought against the Judaizers a lot, especially those demanding circumcision.

The other kind of legalism, lets call it neo-legalism, is the attempt to vilify any good act for salvation...ie...telling the truth so one doesn't tell a lie that will separate one from God.
Or, remaining monogamous, instead of committing adultery.
A legalist would say..."You are a legalist for remaining true to your spouse in order to be saved !"
Folks actually can't tell the truth, if is to maintain their salvation...according to the "legalists".
It is a devilish ploy to drive a wedge between us and God.
 
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Soyeong

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First, it wasn't God's word that was made flesh.
It was the Word Himself that was made flesh.
And He didn't fight against His Father.
He fought against the indiscriminate enforcement of it in opposition to true judgement.
Opposition to true judgement is not in opposition to doing what God has commanded.

Are we to stone adulterers now, in the NT ?
There is no Sanhedrin. Moreover, Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so it would be unjust to enforce a penalty that has already been paid.

Nicely put.

"Legalists" would now demand exact attention to each and every Law, no matter the circumstances.
That is not a matter of demanding each attention, but a matter of priority. God commanded to circumcise babies on the 8th day and commanded to rest on the Sabbath, so if that happens to fall on the Sabbath, then the command to circumcise takes priority.


"Legalists" would defer to the written commands.
Therefore, the accusers of Jesus were legalists !
The written command is also to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Can't say that I recall where that was written.
Can you refer me to the scrip' saying that the witness was to throw the first stone ?
Deuteronomy 7:7.

I agree.

I agree, if by "law", you mean the law of liberty in Christ.
The Law of Moss is perfect (Psalms 19:7), it is of liberty (Psalms 119:45), and it blesses those who obey it (Psalms 119:1-3), so when James 1:25 speaks about the perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he wasn't saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms. Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

I agree.
Motive determines a lot.

All unrighteousness is sin. (1 John 5:17)
Eating anything sanctified by the word of God and prayer is not prohibited. (1 Tim 4:5)
But if it is a sin to you...don't eat it.
Sin is what is contrary to God's character and sin is the the transgression of God's law because it was given to teach us how to be a doer of His character traits. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). Unclean animals have not been sanctified by the word of God and prayer, but rather it is an abomination to eat them. God's laws are not optional.

This is why we need to ask "which" legalism is being discussed.
Yours is relevant to OT teachings that are now passed away.
Paul fought against the Judaizers a lot, especially those demanding circumcision.
Al of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:142). The only way that instructions for how to be holy as God is holy could pass away would be if God were to cease to be holy. Paul did not speak against obeying God's command to becoming circumcised, but against obeying that command in order to become saved.

The other kind of legalism, lets call it neo-legalism, is the attempt to vilify any good act for salvation...ie...telling the truth so one doesn't tell a lie that will separate one from God.
Or, remaining monogamous, instead of committing adultery.
A legalist would say..."You are a legalist for remaining true to your spouse in order to be saved !"
Folks actually can't tell the truth, if is to maintain their salvation...according to the "legalists".
It is a devilish ploy to drive a wedge between us and God.
Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by directing our lives towards being a doer of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly. How can someone still have that gift of they cease to participate in that training?
 
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fhansen

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The Bible tells us that God's love for us is just like He is, "from everlasting" .. e.g. Jeremiah 31:3, but are you saying that if we want to continue in His love moving forward that it (His love for us) is now based on some sort of a quid pro quo with Him, at best? That it must be "earned" by us, even in some small way? Surely not.
Surely there is an element of that, the need for reciprocity, in it. If we’re not becoming like Him, coming to love as He does, because He first loved us, now that we’ve become grafted into the Vine via faith, then we’re not His after all, even if the power to be transformed comes from Him to begin with. For example:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matt 6:14-15

We can and must be righteous, but apart from the law. The purpose of the NC was never to do away with the necessity of man to be righteous and walk accordingly, but, in fact, to accomplish that very thing, the right way, God’s way, with Him, by virtue of reconciled relationship with Him.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so do you consider that that to be legalism?
The argument that obeying God is legalism is mind blowing to me. Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments, If you abide in My love you will keep My commandments, basically people claiming obeying God the way God said is saying loving Him is legalism and that is not anything that comes from God.

Exo 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
 
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Lukaris

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I don’t think legalism is always mean spirited; sometimes it seems on an individual level it is a sense of of insecurity and playing guessing games in keeping the commandments. We have to live by faith guided by the commandments & seriously try to keep them but we can never be righteous. Trusting in the Lord should automatically make us realize we need His commandments but He has paid for our sin all the same ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Matthew 6:9-13 etc.).
 
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fhansen

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I don’t think legalism is always mean spirited; sometimes it seems on an individual level it is a sense of of insecurity and playing guessing games in keeping the commandments. We have to live by faith guided by the commandments & seriously try to keep them but we can never be righteous. Trusting in the Lord should automatically make us realize we need His commandments but He has paid for our sin all the same ( Ephesians 2:8-10, Matthew 6:9-13 etc.).
And yet don't the EO teach that wanton, persistent grave sin/deeds of the flesh should keep one from heaven, with or without any claims to having faith?
 
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