Limited atonement !

[zoidar]

What you call 17th century doctrine is biblical doctrine. The Bible is the word of God; do you believe the Trinity? It is biblical, but the Nicene Creed was formulated from later discussions of the Bible.

You believe TULIP is a biblical doctrine. I don't see it in the teachings of the Early Church. The Creeds can be wrong about things since it's not the Bible, but sure I believe they got the Trinity right. The Nicene Creed is also quite close to the time of the apostles. Way closer in time than the TULIP.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and reconciled unto God. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Eph 2:16

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross/or death, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now the word reconciled in Col 1:21 is the greek word apokatallassō:

1. to reconcile completely
2. to reconcile back again
3. bring back a former state of harmony

There is no such thing as Christ dying for people and they not be reconciled to God completely, which is nothing short of Salvation !

So His death is limited to the reconciled completely !

 

[Brightfame52]

Neither do I judge people's salvation. It's not my Job. Salvation has very little to do with theology, but a lot to do with heart.

It has to be a heart that embraces Truth, Limited Atonement is Truth !

 

[zoidar]

It has to be a heart that embraces Truth, Limited Atonement is Truth !

How can Christ have won a complete victory over the devil if he didn't win victory over and was punished for all sin? Then it seems to me the devil is not totally defeated, yet the Bible says he has been kicked out.

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
— John 12:31

 

[Brightfame52]

The notion that the death of Christ is conditionally sufficient for all mankind, that is if all mankind were to believe in it, leads the sinner at once to the performance of some duty which he imagines will give efficacy to the death of Christ and render it available to him. By this means he is lead to draw comfort from his duties instead of the finished salvation of Christ.

A Defense of Particular Redemption - William Rushton

A DEFENCE OF PARTICULAR REDEMPTION WHEREIN THE DOCTRINE OF THE LATE MR. FULLER RELATIVE TO THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST, IS TRIED BY THE WORD OF GOD. BY WILLIAM RUSHTON, LIV

www.pristinegrace.org

 

[zoidar]

A Defense of Particular Redemption - William Rushton

A DEFENCE OF PARTICULAR REDEMPTION WHEREIN THE DOCTRINE OF THE LATE MR. FULLER RELATIVE TO THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST, IS TRIED BY THE WORD OF GOD. BY WILLIAM RUSHTON, LIV

www.pristinegrace.org

Have you studied Lutheran soteriology?

Soteriology, Calvinist and Lutheran

Calvinism and Arminianism are commonly presented as the only two options regarding soteriology, the doctrine of salvation. Either 1) Jesus’ death sufficiently atoned for the sins of a specific numb…

www.douglasdouma.com

"Analysis
The Calvinist focuses on the ultimate cause of salvation – election. The Lutheran focuses on the proximate causes – Jesus’ death for those who come to believe and man’s sin for those who do not believe..."

 

[Brightfame52]

Here are some scriptures that confirm limited atonement, or that Christ died for only some, not all without exception.

Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Eph 5:2

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Cp Eph 5:25

Writing to the Church at Thessalonia 1:1; 1 Thess 5:9-10

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 18

 

[zoidar]

Here are some scriptures that confirm limited atonement, or that Christ died for only some, not all without exception.

Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Eph 5:2

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Cp Eph 5:25

Writing to the Church at Thessalonia 1:1; 1 Thess 5:9-10

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 18

The question is not who Jesus died for, but what the atonement accomplished for all mankind.

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

 

[David Lamb]

The question is not who Jesus died for, but what the atonement accomplished for all mankind.

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

What ever does it mean to say that Jesus died "for" somebody if that person's salvation is not actually accomplished? When the angel told Joseph to name Him Jesus, we read:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

He will save them, not "He will make their salvation a possibility."

 

[Brightfame52]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 18

 

[Brightfame52]

The question is not who Jesus died for, but what the atonement accomplished for all mankind.

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

Its still limited to the sheep

 

[zoidar]

What ever does it mean to say that Jesus died "for" somebody if that person's salvation is not actually accomplished? When the angel told Joseph to name Him Jesus, we read:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

He will save them, not "He will make their salvation a possibility."

In Matt 1:21 I'm quite certain it refers to Israel, the Jewish people. Compare with:

‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah,
Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah;
For out of you shall come forth a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
— Matthew 2:6

Does it mean Jesus will save every Israelite? Of course not! The prophecy is about Jesus being a savior for Israel. He will save every Israelite who turn to him.

 

[Brightfame52]

In Matt 1:21 I'm quite certain it refers to Israel, the Jewish people. Compare with:

‘And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah,
Are by no means least among the leaders of Judah;
For out of you shall come forth a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”
— Matthew 2:6

Does it mean Jesus will save every Israelite? Of course not! The prophecy is about Jesus being a savior for Israel. He will save every Israelite who turn to him.

Thats the Church, the Body of Christ

 

[zoidar]

Thats the Church, the Body of Christ

Is this also the Church, the Body of Christ?

“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
— Luke 2:29-32

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them that God has not appointed wrath, but to obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord 1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thats very specific. Now who are the us that are to obtain Salvation ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Brightfame52]

Is this also the Church, the Body of Christ?

“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
A Light of revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”
— Luke 2:29-32

Yes its the Church, the Body of Christ, the Sheep

 

[zoidar]

Yes its the Church, the Body of Christ, the Sheep

I don't understand how you get to that.

 

[zoidar]

Yes its the Church, the Body of Christ, the Sheep

Is that also the Church, the Body of Christ, the Sheep?

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:9-12

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't understand how you get to that.

Scripture says specifically Christ died for His Church Eph 5:25 and His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

 

[Brightfame52]

Is that also the Church, the Body of Christ, the Sheep?

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:9-12

The Sheep, the Church