Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

[BNR32FAN]

How does this change my point.

You didn’t answer the question.

No, my point is that without Christ, you cannot open your heart to Him.

Where are you getting this idea from? What passage of scripture supports this statement?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It doesn't change the seperate fact that without Him we would not exsist. It all honesty, it was a battle of our egos and was not for Christ.

It has nothing to do with my ego it’s about what Christ said in John 15:4-5. He was not telling His 11 faithful apostles that they would not exist without Him and He wasn’t telling them that without Him they can’t repent. You’re cherry picking verses and quoting them out of context to try to support your statements that aren’t backed up by scripture. I’ve shown you with scripture that God commands all men to repent and you just ignore it. Why? You’re quoting John 15:5 which says absolutely nothing about repentance in the entire chapter and I’m quoting a verse that literally says that God commands all men to REPENT. It can’t get any clearer than that. There’s no question about context in that statement, it’s specifically about repentance. So why do you ignore it?

 

[Mercy Shown]

It has nothing to do with my ego it’s about what Christ said in John 15:4-5. He was not telling His 11 faithful apostles that they would not exist without Him and He wasn’t telling them that without Him they can’t repent. You’re cherry picking verses and quoting them out of context to try to support your statements that aren’t backed up by scripture. I’ve shown you with scripture that God commands all men to repent and you just ignore it. Why? You’re quoting John 15:5 which says absolutely nothing about repentance in the entire chapter and I’m quoting a verse that literally says that God commands all men to REPENT. It can’t get any clearer than that. There’s no question about context in that statement, it’s specifically about repentance. So why do you ignore it?

You got your bone to chew on. But as for me, I believe that we can do nothing without Christ including exist. But this is way off topic.

 

[Mercy Shown]

You didn’t answer the question.


Where are you getting this idea from? What passage of scripture supports this statement?

1. We Are Spiritually Dead Before Salvation​

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ESV):

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy... even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved."

• This passage says that we were dead, not merely sick or weak. A dead person cannot respond unless God first makes them alive.
• The action is God's: "made us alive together with Christ," indicating that regeneration precedes faith.

---

2. The Natural Person Cannot Accept the Things of God​

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV):

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

• The natural (unregenerate) person cannot accept or understand spiritual things. This suggests an inability to open one's heart to Christ without a change in nature—something only God can initiate.

---

3. No One Seeks God​

Romans 3:10-12 (ESV):

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

• If no one seeks God on their own, then any movement toward Christ must be God-initiated. We don’t open our hearts to Him—He opens our hearts to receive Him.

---

4. God Must Draw Us​

John 6:44 (ESV):

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

• This directly states human inability to come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. That "drawing" is understood by many as regeneration.

---

5. God Opens the Heart​

Acts 16:14 (ESV):

"The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."

• Lydia did not open her own heart—God did. This illustrates divine initiative in response to the gospel.

---

Summary:​

Scripture portrays humans as spiritually dead, unable to seek God, and incapable of understanding spiritual truth. Therefore, unless God first makes us alive, draws us, and opens our hearts, we cannot and will not respond to Christ. The movement begins not with man opening his heart, but with Christ raising the heart to life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

1. We Are Spiritually Dead Before Salvation​

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ESV):

• This passage says that we were dead, not merely sick or weak. A dead person cannot respond unless God first makes them alive.
• The action is God's: "made us alive together with Christ," indicating that regeneration precedes faith.

“For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

By grace we have been saved THRU FAITH. We don’t deserve to be saved thru faith, we haven’t earned salvation thru faith, it is by God’s grace that He allows us to be saved thru faith. It was by God’s grace that He sent Christ to die on the cross and pay for our sins that we are able to be saved IF we repent and believe the gospel. You’re saying that we can’t repent and believe unless God has given us grace. Ok so here’s a couple problems with that idea that I’ve already pointed out and you haven’t addressed.

“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17‬:‭30‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So God is demanding that ALL MEN REPENT BECAUSE ALL MEN WILL BE JUDGED. This is echoed in 1 Timothy 1:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:9

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB 1995

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And combine all these with John 12:32

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He’s commanding everyone to repent, He desires all men to repent and be saved, and come to the knowledge of truth, and that none should perish, because He’s going to judge the entire world, and Christ is drawing all men to Himself.

So my question is according to these passages of scripture HOW CAN GOD JUSTLY JUDGE THE ENTIRE WORLD AND PUNISH PEOPLE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY IF THEY HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN THE ABILITY TO REPENT?

IS IT JUST TO PUNISH PEOPLE FOR FAILING TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY CANNOT DO?

 

[BNR32FAN]

2. The Natural Person Cannot Accept the Things of God​

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV):

• The natural (unregenerate) person cannot accept or understand spiritual things. This suggests an inability to open one's heart to Christ without a change in nature—something only God can initiate.

Everyone was once a natural man. NOBODY IS BORN HAVING SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT. THE CORINTHIANS DIDN’T HAVE SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT, DID THEY BELIEVE THE GOSPEL? WERE THEY SAVED?

 

[BNR32FAN]

3. No One Seeks God​

Romans 3:10-12 (ESV):

• If no one seeks God on their own, then any movement toward Christ must be God-initiated. We don’t open our hearts to Him—He opens our hearts to receive Him.

Wrong, Romans 3:10-12 is a proverbial statement, it’s not a literal statement because the scriptures specifically state that several people were righteous, people were seeking God, and people did do good. Noah, Enoch, Job, Abraham, are just a few examples of men who were specifically stated as being righteous men.

“With all my heart I have sought You; Do not let me wander from Your commandments.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭119‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭119‬:‭45‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8‬:‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What Paul is doing in Romans3:10-12 is an exaggeration. It’s like saying no one writes letters anymore. It’s not a factual statement, it’s an exaggeration to indicate that very few people actually write letters nowadays. You can’t take those statements literally because they literally contradict other passages of scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

4. God Must Draw Us​

John 6:44 (ESV):

• This directly states human inability to come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. That "drawing" is understood by many as regeneration.

I already addressed John 6:44. Jesus said that DURING HIS MINISTRY. But John 12:32 tells us that the drawing to Christ changed after His crucifixion.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬-‭33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus is drawing all men to Himself thru His gospel. That’s why the last thing He told His disciples before He ascended to heaven was

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The gospel is the drawing to Christ.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So what Jesus said in John 6:44 pertained to what was happening during that time and what He said in John 12:32 indicates A CHANGE in the way that people are drawn to Him because He’s referring to something that WILL HAPPEN WHEN He is “lifted up” which is referring to His crucifixion according to verse 33. Furthermore it also indicates a change from only those whom are drawn by The Father to Christ drawing ALL MEN. During His ministry ALL MEN were NOT permitted to come to Him because they were temporarily blinded because of their unbelief.

“And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

That’s why Jesus made this statement in Mark 4. It’s also why Paul said that a partial hardening had happened to Israel.

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭25‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Many of the Israelites were hardened because of their unbelief and their disobedience, much like Pharaoh was hardened because of his disobedience. God did this to bring about Christ’s crucifixion and afterwards these people were permitted to repent and believe the gospel which is exactly what happened in Acts 2.

“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭37‬-‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These people who were previously shouting “crucify Him” were no longer hardened and were now able to repent and believe the gospel which thousands of them did.

 

[jamiec]

When I became a born again Christian over 5 years ago, I loved coming to this forum to learn about the Bible. The topic of OSAS was the topic which significantly held my interest. I went back and forth on the issue, and I really wanted to believe OSAS is true, for peace of mind. Thing is, I could never get peace in letting this doctrine settle,and I believe it's for this reason: OSAS is a false doctrine meant to make us lazy, useless in the body of Christ, and possibly even send one to hell. Without posting every verse in the Bible which supports my belief, I will post this one: Matthew 24:13 says: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
If you believe in the doctrine of OSAS, I beg you to reconsider. By negating OSAS you do not automatically get pigeonholed as one who subscribes to "Lordship Salvation", as this is also a false doctrine. However, you will see that maintaining your relationship (abiding in Christ) is necessary for Christians in order to finish the race. You CAN be born again, yet end up in hell because of your apostasy. Do not be fooled nor lazy about your relationship with God. While it's not a religion, it is a relationship, albeit your most important one and it's so easy to drop the ball in this Laodecian church age we find ourselves. Renew your relationship with God every morning and read His Word everyday. I want all of us to make it and not take our relationship with Him for granted. That means NO deliberate sin, as continual deliberate sinning puts Jesus back on the cross and there is no sacrifice left for us...

Hebrews 10:26-27 says, For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Of course we aren't perfect and the Bible tells us that if we say we don't sin, we are liars. However, there's a difference between slipping up, and repenting, and living in sin and, "Oops, Jesus forgive me, Oops, I did it again Jesus, Oops, oops, oops",all in the span of a day or a few days or weeks.

There's a difference between a Christian and a disciple and Jesus want us to be the latter. God bless brothers and sisters, finish the race and will see you in heaven soon!

"Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?"

Both the one and the other. You might as well ask,

"Should Christians follow Jesus - or Christ ?".
"Is Jesus from Nazareth - or is He Jewish ?"
"Is Jesus our Redeemer - or our Saviour ?".
"Should Christians worship Jesus - or God ?".
"Is God Merciful - or Righteous ?".

 

[BNR32FAN]

5. God Opens the Heart​

Acts 16:14 (ESV):

• Lydia did not open her own heart—God did. This illustrates divine initiative in response to the gospel.

Why did you omit the first half of the verse?

“A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did you remove the first half of the verse that says that she was a “worshipper of God’? She was a worshipper of God before she believed the gospel. She had already repented.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Why did you omit the first half of the verse?

“A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭16‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did you remove the first half of the verse that says that she was a “worshipper of God’? She was a worshipper of God before she believed the gospel. She had already repented.

In all that I wrote, you choose to pick at this? Really? Do you have an answer or not? And you have no idea whether or not she had already repented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In all that I wrote, you choose to pick at this? Really? Do you have an answer or not? And you have no idea whether or not she had already repented.

What are you talking about? I replied to every single point you made. I made like 6 or 7 replies to that long post addressing every single point you made and you only responded to one of them. You're saying we can’t repent and believe unless God enables us to then you quote Acts 16:14 as evidence to support you’re statement but the woman whom God opened her heart was ALREADY A WORSHIPPER OF GOD. She was already a believer. Nowhere does it say that she was unable to accept the gospel, it says that the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things Paul was saying. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. She was seeking and knocking because she was already a worshipper of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1. We Are Spiritually Dead Before Salvation​

Ephesians 2:1-5 (ESV):

• This passage says that we were dead, not merely sick or weak. A dead person cannot respond unless God first makes them alive.
• The action is God's: "made us alive together with Christ," indicating that regeneration precedes faith.

That refers to us being separated from a personal relationship with God. However, Jesus said we are spiritually sick before salvation. Why do you not say anything about that?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus calls sinners who are dead in sins and also sick to repentance. Do you know the difference between being dead in sins and being spiritually sick and in need of the physician? As I already said, being dead in sins means you are separated from God. Death is separation. Physical death results in the separation of the body from the soul and spirit.

To be spiritually sick means we are sinners who need to repent. Can a physically sick person not realize that he can't cure himself and acknowledge that he needs a physician without divine intervention causing him to do so? Of course he can. Likewise, being a sinner does not mean you are incapable of recognizing it without being regenerated first. Sinners are spiritually sick, not spiritually unconscious. Sinners can be shown their sin and then decide to humble themselves and acknowledge their sins and that they can't save themselves and need the Great Physician Jesus to heal them spiritually.

---

2. The Natural Person Cannot Accept the Things of God​

1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV):

• The natural (unregenerate) person cannot accept or understand spiritual things. This suggests an inability to open one's heart to Christ without a change in nature—something only God can initiate.

That verse is specifically in relation to the deep things of God which refer to the meat or solid food of the word of God that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 3:2. That verse does not refer to things like the simple gospel message. Paul rebuked immature "babes in Christ" for behaving and thinking carnally like the natural man, but they were still "in Christ". They could not understand the meat or solid food of his teaching, but they understood the simple things.

---

3. No One Seeks God​

Romans 3:10-12 (ESV):

• If no one seeks God on their own, then any movement toward Christ must be God-initiated. We don’t open our hearts to Him—He opens our hearts to receive Him.

He reaches out to people with the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people's hearts by the Holy Spirit and then people must choose how to respond. Some choose to resist the Holy Spirit and some choose to embrace the Holy Spirit and the gospel message and they choose to seek Him and put their faith in Him.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

You are right that God initiates things, but you are wrong to think that He can't be resisted.

---

4. God Must Draw Us​

John 6:44 (ESV):

• This directly states human inability to come to Christ unless drawn by the Father. That "drawing" is understood by many as regeneration.

Do you ignore this verse...

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

All people are drawn, but that can be resisted.

---

5. God Opens the Heart​

Acts 16:14 (ESV):

• Lydia did not open her own heart—God did. This illustrates divine initiative in response to the gospel.

Did you read the verse closely?

One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message

Did God just randomly pick Lydia to open her heart to Paul's message? No. She was already a worshiper of God. How did she become a worshiper of God in the first place? I believe she used her free will to choose to worship God, but she could have chosen not to.

God did something similar for Cornelius by having Peter go preach to him. But, he already believed in God, so Peter wasn't just sent to him randomly. As Jesus said, if someone believed Moses, they would also believe Him (John 5:46).

---

Summary:​

Scripture portrays humans as spiritually dead, unable to seek God, and incapable of understanding spiritual truth.

No, it doesn't. You take all of those verses out of context and ignore that sinners are spiritually sick and do not understand that being dead in sins has nothing to do with one's ability, but rather refers to one's status as being separated from God because of sin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What are you talking about? I replied to every single point you made. I made like 6 or 7 replies to that long post addressing every single point you made and you only responded to one of them. You're saying we can’t repent and believe unless God enables us to then you quote Acts 16:14 as evidence to support you’re statement but the woman whom God opened her heart was ALREADY A WORSHIPPER OF GOD. She was already a believer. Nowhere does it say that she was unable to accept the gospel, it says that the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things Paul was saying. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. She was seeking and knocking because she was already a worshipper of God.

Exactly. Calvinists always are only looking at part of the story instead of the whole story. Yes, God opened her heart to the gospel, but why? Was that just random? No. It was because she was already a worshipper of God. Those who believed the teachings of Moses would also believe in Jesus (John 5:46).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In all that I wrote, you choose to pick at this? Really? Do you have an answer or not? And you have no idea whether or not she had already repented.

What worshipper of God has not repented?

 

[Mercy Shown]

What worshipper of God has not repented?

Not nessecarily, The rich young ruler had worshipped All his life but had never repented. Even Cornelius was a worshipper of God before he received the Holy Spirit. Many have a form of godliness but deny the power of God.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not nessecarily, The rich young ruler had worshipped All his life but had never repented. Even Cornelius was a worshipper of God before he received the Holy Spirit. Many have a form of godliness but deny the power of God.

They are not true worshipers of God like Lydia and Cornelius then. No one would be described as a worshiper of God unless they had repented and had true faith.

 

[Mercy Shown]

They are not true worshipers of God like Lydia and Cornelius then. No one would be described as a worshiper of God unless they had repented and had true faith.

You say so, but what makes what you say a fact. We can publish our opinions all we want but that does not make it so.

 

[Mercy Shown]

What worshipper of God has not repented?

Well, all of the Pharisees for start. All those who had a form of Godliness.

 

[Mercy Shown]

That refers to us being separated from a personal relationship with God. However, Jesus said we are spiritually sick before salvation. Why do you not say anything about that?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus calls sinners who are dead in sins and also sick to repentance. Do you know the difference between being dead in sins and being spiritually sick and in need of the physician? As I already said, being dead in sins means you are separated from God. Death is separation. Physical death results in the separation of the body from the soul and spirit.

To be spiritually sick means we are sinners who need to repent. Can a physically sick person not realize that he can't cure himself and acknowledge that he needs a physician without divine intervention causing him to do so? Of course he can. Likewise, being a sinner does not mean you are incapable of recognizing it without being regenerated first. Sinners are spiritually sick, not spiritually unconscious. Sinners can be shown their sin and then decide to humble themselves and acknowledge their sins and that they can't save themselves and need the Great Physician Jesus to heal them spiritually.


That verse is specifically in relation to the deep things of God which refer to the meat or solid food of the word of God that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 3:2. That verse does not refer to things like the simple gospel message. Paul rebuked immature "babes in Christ" for behaving and thinking carnally like the natural man, but they were still "in Christ". They could not understand the meat or solid food of his teaching, but they understood the simple things.


He reaches out to people with the preaching of the gospel and speaking to people's hearts by the Holy Spirit and then people must choose how to respond. Some choose to resist the Holy Spirit and some choose to embrace the Holy Spirit and the gospel message and they choose to seek Him and put their faith in Him.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

You are right that God initiates things, but you are wrong to think that He can't be resisted.


Do you ignore this verse...

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

All people are drawn, but that can be resisted.


Did you read the verse closely?

One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message

Did God just randomly pick Lydia to open her heart to Paul's message? No. She was already a worshiper of God. How did she become a worshiper of God in the first place? I believe she used her free will to choose to worship God, but she could have chosen not to.

God did something similar for Cornelius by having Peter go preach to him. But, he already believed in God, so Peter wasn't just sent to him randomly. As Jesus said, if someone believed Moses, they would also believe Him (John 5:46).


No, it doesn't. You take all of those verses out of context and ignore that sinners are spiritually sick and do not understand that being dead in sins has nothing to do with one's ability, but rather refers to one's status as being separated from God because of sin.

Lots of your opinions but little scripture.