The revised Old Covenant

[fhansen]

If we fail to love, we thereby fail all the commandments.

Yes, and? They specify how/where we've failed, still providing their pedagogical function as they show that we're not yet perfected in love. They serve no purpose once we are so perfected-so we prove their value to the extent that we break them in thought, word, or deed.

IOW, if we fail the commandments, we've failed to love. And if we don't love, we're not one of His.

 

[Clare73]

we can say that about the first four commandments.
And we can ask a similar question regarding "Love your neighbor" in Lev 19:18 for the last 6 commandments.
If that is all we needed - then they are all "quoted/referenced"
Indeed God is Love.
But that does not mean that we toss out our Bibles.

Nor does it mean we toss out our shoes.

Relevance?

 

[Clare73]

Yes, and? They specify how/where we've failed, still providing their pedagogical function as they show that we're not yet perfected in love. They serve no purpose once we are so perfected-so we prove their value to the extent that we break them in thought, word, or deed.

IOW, if we fail the commandments, we've failed to love. And if we don't love, we're not one of His.

And if we've failed to love others as ourselves, we've failed the commandments, so
loving your neighbor as yourself is all we need, as presented by Jesus, for those commandments relating to others.

 

[fhansen]

And if we've failed to love others as ourselves, we've failed the commandments, so
loving your neighbor as yourself is all we need, as presented by Jesus, for those commandments relating to others.

And I absolutely agree, that if we love God and neighbor then we don’t even need to hear the commandments in order to obey them-Rom 2:13. That’s the ideal, the goal. I’d also agree with anyone who says that the commandments still serve their intended purpose, to make us aware and convict us of not obeying them, of failing to love. Again, until we’re perfected in love, which is connected to our very created purpose as human beings, then we can benefit from hearing God’s law. We prove by sin that the law is not yet fully written on our hearts, IOW. And that is exactly the reason that most churches continued to carry down and uphold and elevate the Ten Commandments throughout the centuries from the beginning. They’re good for humanity to know.

 

[BobRyan]

If you love God with all your heart, will you disrespect his name. . .or worship other gods?

we can say that about the first four commandments.
And we can ask a similar question regarding "Love your neighbor" in Lev 19:18 for the last 6 commandments.

If that is all we needed - then they are all "quoted/referenced"

According to Jesus, love covers all the bases (Mt 22:37-40), repeated by Paul (Ro 13:8, 10).

Indeed God is Love.

But that does not mean that we toss out our Bibles.

Nor does it mean we toss out our shoes.

Relevance?

you do appear to be struggling with relevance...

But I don't think the point is really all that hard to follow.

 

[BobRyan]

And if we've failed to love others as ourselves, we've failed the commandments, so
loving your neighbor as yourself is all we need,

And they already had that in Lev 19:18 -- still our sovereign God gave the TEN

Such that "He spoke the Ten words" Deut 4:13 and "Added no more" Deut 5:22

Even though Lev 19:18 existed all the same

In Matt 19 when asked about His statement "Keep the Commandments" Jesus quotes from BOTH the TEN and the Lev 19:18 statement.

the point remains. One does not negate or delete the need for the other, according to Christ.

 

[Clare73]

And they already had that in Lev 19:18 -- still our sovereign God gave the TEN

He gave the TEN in Ex 20. . .that's before Leviticus.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You may or may not keep Resurrection Day--either way it won't affect whether you're "Saved" or not

Why do some folk get so fixated on who is or isn't saved?
Can't you leave that to God?

 

[Dan Perez]

Nor does it mean we toss out our shoes.

Relevance?

AND hEBREWS 8:7 says , For if that FIRST COVENANT had been FAULTLESS , then NO PLACE would have been

SOUGHT FOR A SECOND .

And verse 8 , Because finding fault with them , He says , BEHOLD , the Days are coming says the LORD , when I will make

a NEW COVENANT with the HOUSE of ISRAEL and with the HOUSE of JUDAH

And as of today there no COVENANT with Israel or JUDAH and will have be ONE NATION as EZE 37 , says they will

have to BE ONE STICK , meaning ONE NATION , PERIOD !!


dan p

 

[Clare73]

we can say that about the first four commandments.
And we can ask a similar question regarding "Love your neighbor" in Lev 19:18 for the last 6 commandments.
If that is all we needed - then they are all "quoted/referenced"

Indeed God is Love.
But that does not mean that we toss out our Bibles.
you do appear to be struggling with relevance...
But I don't think the point is really all that hard to follow.

Appearances are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[BobRyan]

AND hEBREWS 8:7 says , For if that FIRST COVENANT had been FAULTLESS , then NO PLACE would have been

SOUGHT FOR A SECOND .

And verse 8 , Because finding fault with them , He says , BEHOLD , the Days are coming says the LORD , when I will make

a NEW COVENANT with the HOUSE of ISRAEL and with the HOUSE of JUDAH

And as of today there no COVENANT with Israel or JUDAH and will have be ONE NATION as EZE 37 , says they will

have to BE ONE STICK , meaning ONE NATION , PERIOD !!


dan p

"I will make a new Covenant" Jer 31:31-34 ... same statement found in Heb 8.

If one takes that to mean "there is no New Covenant" then even NT saints don't have it.

But instead what we have is
Gal 1:6-9 only ONE Gospel
(so then only one Gospel covenant)
Gal 3:8 that one and only Gospel preached to Abraham


And we find the New Covenant is Old Testament in Jer 31 just as we see it in the New Testament Heb 8

New Covenant

Spiritual - basis for salvation OT and NT

Jer 31:31-34
-- Each one with a new heart, God's Law written on the heart
-- Each one taught by God
-- Each one adopted into God's family
-- Each one forgiven of sins through faith in Jesus' name Acts 10:43 says this is what all OT prophets taught

Rom 2:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

 

[Clare73]

Why do some folk get so fixated on who is or isn't saved?
Can't you leave that to God?

You really don't know why anyone is "fixated" on salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)?

 

[KevinT]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

Haven't we already been down this rabbit hole? Is this a question you have? Or a provocative thread starter?

KT

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You really don't know why anyone is "fixated" on salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)?

Is that reply serious?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Haven't we already been down this rabbit hole? Is this a question you have? Or a provocative thread starter?

KT

neither.

 

[Jermayn]

The holy scriptures teach that the Law [of Moses] is the Old Covenant and that there is a New Covenant in Christ. Is the New Covenant a revision of the Old Covenant with the same Law [of Moses] being normative for Christian behaviours, including observing the ten commandments and the various specific laws that are based upon or derived from the ten commandments?

From my understanding, Jesus' New Testament commandments of loving God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself covers all the commandments in the Old Testament. As far as food laws and such, we know those are not required anymore.

 

[BobRyan]

From my understanding, Jesus' New Testament commandments of loving God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself covers all the commandments in the Old Testament.

In fact those ARE Old Testament commands.

Deut 6:5 Love God with all your being
Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself

In Matt 22 -- the Jews wanted to know if Jesus knew about that detail. And He showed them that He already knew it.

In Luke 10:25-28 a Jewish scholar in Law - asked Jesus this question and Jesus turned it around on the Lawyer "how do you read the answer" -- and the Jewish lawyer gave the same answer we see in Matt 22.

In other words - this is not some new law invented by Christ on the spot in Matt 22 - or known only to Him at that time -- rather the Jews themselves knew that these TWO commands in the LAW of Moses were the bedrock foundation for all the LAW

As far as food laws and such, we know those are not required anymore.

because food was changed at the cross?
rats, cats, dogs and bats were suddenly "food for Christians" at the cross?

Notice what happens in Acts 10. Peter says he never knew about such a thing as -- rats,cats,dogs,bats to be eaten as food for Christians. And that is long after the cross.

 

[Clare73]

In fact those ARE Old Testament commands.
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your being
Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
In Matt 22 -- the Jews wanted to know if Jesus knew about that detail. And He showed them that He already knew it.
In Luke 10:25-28 a Jewish scholar in Law - asked Jesus this question and Jesus turned it around on the Lawyer "how do you read the answer" -- and the Jewish lawyer gave the same answer we see in Matt 22.

In other words - this is not some new law invented by Christ on the spot in Matt 22 - or known only to Him at that time -- rather the Jews themselves knew that these TWO commands in the LAW of Moses were the bedrock foundation for all the LAW
because food was changed at the cross?
rats, cats, dogs and bats were suddenly "food for Christians" at the cross?
Notice what happens in Acts 10. Peter says he never knew about such a thing as -- rats,cats,dogs,bats to be eaten as food for Christians. And that is long after the cross.

That's a good denominational twist on that one. . .Ro 14:14?

 

[BobRyan]

That's a good denominational twist on that one

I see you deleted every Bible text referenced to make your comment.

How instructive.

. . .Ro 14:14?

Start with vs 1 to see that the issue is not about "eating nothing" vs "eating something.

Rather it is "eating meat vs vegetables only".

As we all know - even the Jews had no teaching about "eating vegetables only" -- to get the actual context for that -- read 1 Cor 8 where we find Paul's own "I will never eat meat again" comment.

1 Cor 10:
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

deleting texts,... avoiding context.... not as helpful a tool as some have supposed

 

[Clare73]

I see you deleted every Bible text referenced to make your comment.
How instructive.
Start with vs 1 to see that the issue is not about "eating nothing" vs "eating something.
Rather it is "eating meat vs vegetables only".
As we all know - even the Jews had no teaching about "eating vegetables only" -- to get the actual context for that -- read 1 Cor 8 where we find Paul's own "I will never eat meat again" comment.

1 Cor 10:
11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

deleting texts,... avoiding context.... not as helpful a tool as some have supposed

More of the same. . .

Ro 14:14 stands.