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The revised Old Covenant

Soyeong

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Jesus lived under the OC, inaugurating the NC by his death.
Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). None of God’s covenants are contrary to walking in His way.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). None of God’s covenants are contrary to walking in His way.
Jesus lived under the Old Covenant, inaugurating the New Covenant with his death (post #60).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33), so what is your point?
Jeremiah 31:33 is a promise given to Israel.

However, saint Paul writes about the new covenant this way:

Does this sound as if we were again boasting about ourselves? Could it be that, like some other people, we need letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are the letter we have, written on our hearts for everyone to know and read. It is clear that Christ himself wrote this letter and sent it by us. It is written, not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, and not on stone tablets but on human hearts. We say this because we have confidence in God through Christ. There is nothing in us that allows us to claim that we are capable of doing this work. The capacity we have comes from God; it is he who made us capable of serving the new covenant, which consists not of a written law but of the Spirit. The written law brings death, but the Spirit gives life. The Law was carved in letters on stone tablets, and God's glory appeared when it was given. Even though the brightness on Moses' face was fading, it was so strong that the people of Israel could not keep their eyes fixed on him. If the Law, which brings death when it is in force, came with such glory, how much greater is the glory that belongs to the activity of the Spirit! The system which brings condemnation was glorious; how much more glorious is the activity which brings salvation! We may say that because of the far brighter glory now the glory that was so bright in the past is gone. For if there was glory in that which lasted for a while, how much more glory is there in that which lasts forever! Because we have this hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who had to put a veil over his face so that the people of Israel would not see the brightness fade and disappear. Their minds, indeed, were closed; and to this very day their minds are covered with the same veil as they read the books of the old covenant. The veil is removed only when a person is joined to Christ. Even today, whenever they read the Law of Moses, the veil still covers their minds. But it can be removed, as the scripture says about Moses: "His veil was removed when he turned to the Lord." Now, "the Lord" in this passage is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom. All of us, then, reflect the glory of the Lord with uncovered faces; and that same glory, coming from the Lord, who is the Spirit, transforms us into his likeness in an ever greater degree of glory.​
2Co 3:1-18 GNB
 
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Clare73

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Jesus lived under the Old Covenant, inaugurating the New Covenant with his death (post #60).
The New covenant does not involve the Levitical laws.
 
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Clare73

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The New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33), so what is your point?
The New Covenant does not include any Old Covenant laws.

Jesus has given us a new commandment replacing all old commandments--to love as he has loved us (Jn 13:34), with Jesus' own self-sacrificing love for us, which far transcends any OT covenant laws.

The born again have the indwelling Holy Spirit to enable them to love as Jesus loved.

The New Covenant is not about law keeping, it is about loving in the power of the Holy Spirit.

What a loss when this is not understood.
 
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Clare73

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I'm going to listen to the voice of Jesus because I love Him

If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10
Jesus distinguishes between his commandments and his Father's commandments.

And what are Jesus commandments: "A new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you."
Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, including saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed everything that God spoke in Deuteronomy.
Jesus was born, lived, preached, died under and fulfilled the Old Covenant, thereby ending the Old Covenant (Heb 8:13).
We are under the New Covenant and his New Covenant commands.
 
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ARBITER01

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Jesus distinguishes between his commandments and his Father's commandments.

Exactly!

That's the part that most folks tend to miss in scripture. We are to follow and obey Jesus.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Torah by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could be free to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place,
The Old Covenant is not revised, it is abolished (Eph 2:15), made obsolete (Heb 8:13).

Nor was the New Covenant "caused by lawlessness."

The New Covenant was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant patterns/types in the sacrificial system of atonement, thereby making the Old Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13).
but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). None of God’s covenants are contrary to walking in His way.
Lotta' disagreement here with NT teaching.

The Old Covenant and its commands are obsolete (Heb 11:13), being replaced by the New Covenant and Jesus' commands whereby we walk in God's way.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Jesus distinguishes between his commandments and his Father's commandments.
Where does it say different commandments? Best not to add what’s not there.
And what are Jesus commandments: "A new commandment I give you, that you love one another as I have loved you."
Jesus was quoting Old Testament as it turns out. Lev 19:18 and no where does it say new commandments deletes old commandments.
Jesus was born, lived, preached, died under and fulfilled the Old Covenant, thereby ending the Old Covenant (Heb 8:13).
We are under the New Covenant and his New Covenant commands.
Jesus lived to be our example to follow, so I know its convenient for some to put Him in a box of the “old Covenant” so we don’t; have to follow Him or listen or follow His teachings, but this is a bad interpretation leading people away from Jesus. John 14:6

Jesus never taught do as I say, not as I do. He always led by example starting at Creation why He made man in His image and likenesses to be followers of Him, not to do our own thing.

I understand not everyone wants to do so, but if we are connected to Him, we would be keeping His commandments, the same ones He kept for our exmaple.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Same commandments. There is no other way John 15:6
 
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SabbathBlessings

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19th century panic about an 1844 second coming is hardly a good introduction to make for one's system of theology; Saturday keeping included.
Who quoted anyone from 1844? God made the Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 way before 1844. You can keep pretending the Sabbath didn't come from God and its not a commandment or that its been edited despite Christ own Testimony saying no editing. We can believe whatever we want, but we are only sanctified by God’s Truth John 17:17, not ours and only He can sanctify us which He in His own Words relates to keeping His Sabbath Eze 20:12. We can’t sanctify ourselves, we can’t sanctify a day or take away God sanctification and blessings despite our best efforts Num 23:20 Isa 66:17 It’s the same old story, following man or following God Mat 15:3-14 we will each have to make these decision and the choices we make leads us to the path we end up on Rom 6:16
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Who quoted anyone from 1844? God made the Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 way before 1844. You can keep pretending the Sabbath didn't come from God and its not a commandment or that its been edited despite Christ own Testimony saying no editing. We can believe whatever we want, but we are only sanctified by God’s Truth John 17:17, not ours and only He can sanctify us which He in His own Words relates to keeping His Sabbath Eze 20:12. We can’t sanctify ourselves, we can’t sanctify a day or take away God sanctification and blessings despite our best efforts Num 23:20 Isa 66:17 It’s the same old story, following man or following God Mat 15:3-14 we will each have to make these decision and the choices we make leads us to the path we end up on Rom 6:16
You need not quote because history reveals the roots of adventism in the William Miller movement. Seventh day observance among adventists arose out of that movement. The sabbatarianism of Seventh Day Adventism arose from alleged visions received by Ellen White, so it is historically accurate to call attention to that connection as I did.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You need not quote because history reveals the roots of adventism in the William Miller movement. Seventh day observance among adventists arose out of that movement. The sabbatarianism of Seventh Day Adventism arose from alleged visions received by Ellen White, so it is historically accurate to call attention to that connection as I did.
Still doesn’t change what God said. Exo 20:8-11 Gen 2:1-3, Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Still doesn’t change what God said. Exo 20:8-11 Gen 2:1-3, Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18
Amen. That is, assuredly, of a truth. This Hebrew word Amen, is here retained by the example and authority of all the four evangelists, who have retained it. It is used by our Lord as a strong asseveration, and affirmation of the truth. (Challoner) ---

Not one jot (or not one jota), nor one tittle, i.e. not the least letter, nor stroke of a letter; that is, not the least moral precept. Besides every type and figure of the former law, now by my coming shall be fulfilled. (Witham) ---

Greek: Amen, is retained in the Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, and Armenian languages, aw well as in all vulgar idioms. It is a term of asseveration, and equivalent to an oath; and in many places, to make the asseveration still stronger, it is repeated. St. Luke very accurately translates it into Greek: nai. St. Paul and St. John unite them Greek: nai and Greek: amen. (Haydock)

Verily - Truly, certainly. A word of strong affirmation.

Till heaven and earth pass - This expression denotes that the law never would be destroyed until it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying everything else may change; the very earth and heaven may pass away, but the law of God shall not be destroyed until its whole design has been accomplished.

One jot - The word “jot,” or yod (י y), is the name of the Hebrew letter I, the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet.

One tittle - The word used here, in the Greek, means literally a little horn, then a point, an extremity. Several of the Hebrew letters were written with small points or apices, as in the Hebrew letter, shin (שׁ sh), or the Hebrew letter, sin (שׂ s), which serve to distinguish one letter from another. To change a small point of one letter, therefore, might vary the meaning of a word, and destroy the sense. The name “little horn” was given to these points probably from the manner in which they were written, resembling a little horn. Professor Hackett says of a manuscript which he saw a Jew transcribing: “One peculiarity, that struck me at once as I cast my eye over the parchment, was the horn-like appearance attached to some of the letters. I had seen the same mark, before this, in Hebrew manuscripts, but never where it was so prominent as here. The sign in question, as connected with the Hebrew Letter Lamedh (ל L) in particular, had almost the appearance of an intentional imitation of a ram’s head. It was to that appendage of the Hebrew letters that the Saviour referred when he said, “‘Not one jot or little horn’ (as the Greek term signifies, which our version renders ‘tittle,’) ‘shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled.’” - Illustrations of Scripture, p. 234. Hence, the Jews were exceedingly cautious in writing these letters, and considered the smallest change or omission a reason for destroying the whole manuscript when they were transcribing the Old Testament. The expression, “one jot or tittle,” became proverbial, and means that the smallest part of the law should not be destroyed.

The laws of the Jews are commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, and which cannot, therefore, be changed - such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished, as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments, and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are changed, and yet the moral law be untouched. A general in an army may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat and sometimes in blue or in yellow. This would be a ceremonial law, and might be changed as he pleased. The duty of obeying him, and of being faithful to his country, could not be changed.

This is a moral law. A parent might permit his children to have 50 different dresses at different times, and love them equally in all. The dress is a mere matter of ceremony, and may be changed. The child, in all these garments, is bound to love and obey his father. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. So the laws of the Jews. Those designed to regulate mere matters of ceremony and rites of worship might be changed. Those requiring love and obedience to God and love to people could not be changed, and Christ did not attempt it, Mat 19:19; Mat 22:37-39; Luk 10:27; Rom 13:9. A third species of law was the judicial, or those laws regulating courts of justice which are contained in the Old Testament. These were of the nature of the ceremonial law, and might also be changed at pleasure. The judicial law of the Hebrews was adapted to their own civil society. When the form of their polity was changed this was of course no longer binding. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ: the shadow was lost in the substance, and ceased to be binding. The moral law was confirmed and unchanged.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Amen. That is, assuredly, of a truth. This Hebrew word Amen, is here retained by the example and authority of all the four evangelists, who have retained it. It is used by our Lord as a strong asseveration, and affirmation of the truth. (Challoner) ---

Not one jot (or not one jota), nor one tittle, i.e. not the least letter, nor stroke of a letter; that is, not the least moral precept. Besides every type and figure of the former law, now by my coming shall be fulfilled. (Witham) ---

Greek: Amen, is retained in the Hebrew, Greek, Syriac, and Armenian languages, aw well as in all vulgar idioms. It is a term of asseveration, and equivalent to an oath; and in many places, to make the asseveration still stronger, it is repeated. St. Luke very accurately translates it into Greek: nai. St. Paul and St. John unite them Greek: nai and Greek: amen. (Haydock)

Verily - Truly, certainly. A word of strong affirmation.

Till heaven and earth pass - This expression denotes that the law never would be destroyed until it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying everything else may change; the very earth and heaven may pass away, but the law of God shall not be destroyed until its whole design has been accomplished.

One jot - The word “jot,” or yod (י y), is the name of the Hebrew letter I, the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet.

One tittle - The word used here, in the Greek, means literally a little horn, then a point, an extremity. Several of the Hebrew letters were written with small points or apices, as in the Hebrew letter, shin (שׁ sh), or the Hebrew letter, sin (שׂ s), which serve to distinguish one letter from another. To change a small point of one letter, therefore, might vary the meaning of a word, and destroy the sense. The name “little horn” was given to these points probably from the manner in which they were written, resembling a little horn. Professor Hackett says of a manuscript which he saw a Jew transcribing: “One peculiarity, that struck me at once as I cast my eye over the parchment, was the horn-like appearance attached to some of the letters. I had seen the same mark, before this, in Hebrew manuscripts, but never where it was so prominent as here. The sign in question, as connected with the Hebrew Letter Lamedh (ל L) in particular, had almost the appearance of an intentional imitation of a ram’s head. It was to that appendage of the Hebrew letters that the Saviour referred when he said, “‘Not one jot or little horn’ (as the Greek term signifies, which our version renders ‘tittle,’) ‘shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled.’” - Illustrations of Scripture, p. 234. Hence, the Jews were exceedingly cautious in writing these letters, and considered the smallest change or omission a reason for destroying the whole manuscript when they were transcribing the Old Testament. The expression, “one jot or tittle,” became proverbial, and means that the smallest part of the law should not be destroyed.

The laws of the Jews are commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, and which cannot, therefore, be changed - such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished, as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments, and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are changed, and yet the moral law be untouched. A general in an army may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat and sometimes in blue or in yellow. This would be a ceremonial law, and might be changed as he pleased. The duty of obeying him, and of being faithful to his country, could not be changed.

This is a moral law. A parent might permit his children to have 50 different dresses at different times, and love them equally in all. The dress is a mere matter of ceremony, and may be changed. The child, in all these garments, is bound to love and obey his father. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. So the laws of the Jews. Those designed to regulate mere matters of ceremony and rites of worship might be changed. Those requiring love and obedience to God and love to people could not be changed, and Christ did not attempt it, Mat 19:19; Mat 22:37-39; Luk 10:27; Rom 13:9. A third species of law was the judicial, or those laws regulating courts of justice which are contained in the Old Testament. These were of the nature of the ceremonial law, and might also be changed at pleasure. The judicial law of the Hebrews was adapted to their own civil society. When the form of their polity was changed this was of course no longer binding. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ: the shadow was lost in the substance, and ceased to be binding. The moral law was confirmed and unchanged.
Fulfilled does not mean to end as Mat 5:19-20 makes clear as does Gal 5:19-21 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 14:12 Rev 12:17 Rev 22:14-15 etc. etc. etc. (Think of it more like a wedding covenant- does fulfill one's weddings vows allows for adultery or is one faithful?) And it definitely does not pluck out the Sabbath commandment to be treated differently than the other 9 commandments. Is there ever a time someone in Christ can worship other gods, vain His name, covet or steal? Of course not, why Jesus taught not to break the least of these commandments which of course includes the 4th commandment the way God said Mat 5:19

A jot or tittle means not something as small as a dot of an i or cross of a t can pass, yet alone an entire commandment or two.

God personally wrote the Ten Commandments on stone for its eternal nature than placed them in our hearts in the New Covenant. To think God made a mistake and accidently wrote the seventh day Exo 20:10 Heb 4:4 when He meant the first day and to edit what God personally divinely wrote as if we know better than our Creator and Master is the same spirit who told Eve she would not die if she ate the forbidden tree, its been the controversy from the beginning, being faithful to God or thinking we know better than He. Its time to come out of our man-made traditions leading people on the wrong path Mat 15:3-14 Rev 18:4

Guess all gets sorted out soon enough.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Fulfilled does not mean to end
seems like it does mean "completed" and "made obsolete"; When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Heb 8:13 LSB
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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God broke the Old Covenant.

10 ¶ And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zechariah 11:10-13
 
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SabbathBlessings

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seems like it does mean "completed" and "made obsolete"; When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Heb 8:13 LSB
The New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws as people erroneously teach, can't make something perfect, written by our perfect Savior Exo 31:18 more perfect Psa 19:7 why it still has God law, now written on a better surface, our hearts and minds Heb 8:10 as long as we don't rebel Rom 8:7-8 keeping what He said through our love and faith and His power John 14:15-18 John 15:4-10
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws as people erroneously teach, can't make something perfect, written by our perfect Savior Exo 31:18 more perfect Psa 19:7 why it still has God law, now written on a better surface, our hearts and minds Heb 8:10 as long as we don't rebel Rom 8:7-8 keeping what He said through our love and faith and His power John 14:15-18 John 15:4-10
the old covenant is obsolete. It is a thing of the past. Christ established a new covenant not a revised old covenant.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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the old covenant is obsolete. It is a thing of the past. Christ established a new covenant not a revised old covenant.
Agreed, the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6, most people seek a rabbit hole looking for better laws, when God never said that, what we should be seeking is the better promises of the New Covenant on how we can keep God's law in our heart, Heb 8:10 instead of rebelling like everyone else in the Scripture who did so which separated them from God Isa 59:2 Following that same path of disobedience Heb 4:11 is not going to reconcile us Rev 22:14. God will help us keep His commandments, which is one of the better promises, based on what He does,, but we have to be willing to obey Him the way He asks, not the way we want. Cain and Abel are a good example of this. Both believed in God, both made sacrifices, one the way God asked the other the way he felt was right. The one that followed God was persecuted by the one who didn't. Nothing new under the sun.
 
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