Tit for Tat Tariffs - The US versus the World

[stevil]

The goal of the tariff is to get the manufacturers to move some of their work back here. We cannot continue to outsource the country NAFTA style. A few people working cannot sustain supporting all the people who don't work here. Mercantilism simply does not work.

There are better ways to try and get manufacturing going in USA, rather than to just make overseas stuff more expensive and basically create massive inflation in USA.

Give tax breaks to companies, give aid and support for people starting new ventures, invest in infrastructure and new technology.

I mean, if you have a room full of bone china, and you need to clear it all out, you could have a closing down sale, or you could run around the room with a sledge hammer.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The goal of the tariff is to get the manufacturers to move some of their work back here.

It takes years and hundreds of billions of dollars in investment to build a manufacturing base. Why would companies take that risk if tariffs are going to be temporary (either because Trump negotiates them away or because some future administration drops them)?

 

[eclipsenow]

You do realize that you are articulating the policy of Joe Biden?

Exactly - the most boringly named POSITIVE way to encourage domestic industries - the IRA - Inflation Reduction Act. He could have called it MASA - Making America Safe Again - and maybe got some more votes?

KIND VS HARSH
But computer chips, domestic steel, and some energy infrastructure were all subsidised. Many factories were being built - especially massive battery factories. I wonder how many of these companies are going to fold now that overseas rare earth's etc are all going to be so much more expensive? Joe was kindly encouraging them to be built at home with tax concessions - Trump is slapping foreign countries in the face and insulting them to cause chaos at home - and hoping complicated supply lines somehow work out.

I HAVE ALL THE CARDS
Trump crashes markets and changes the tariff rate depending on how he slept the previous night. He loves that everyone is lining up to "Make a deal". He feels like HE has all the cards!

"TAKE YOUR MEDICINE"
But meanwhile, he's destroying America's economy. What entrepreneur can plan in a chaotic and changing environment like this? Imagine you are a CEO. Are you going to invest hundreds of millions or even billions building some new mining or aluminium smelter or something in an environment where Trump suddenly changes a tariff because some foreign leader FLATTERED HIM!? Gave him the narcissistic supply he so craves?

CHAOS
So you've just invested $200 million on that factory. You thought America really needed your product, because it was now so expensive from China. You were trying to help. But Trump woke up in a good mood and Ping said his hair was looking great - and now the tariff is down. You run the numbers through your spreadsheet in a cold sweat - and realise - Trump's just bankrupted you and all those investors just lost their money!

 

[eclipsenow]

It takes years and hundreds of billions of dollars in investment to build a manufacturing base. Why would companies take that risk if tariffs are going to be temporary (either because Trump negotiates them away or because some future administration drops them)?

Ah you got in just before me!

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You do realize that you are articulating the policy of Joe Biden?

Source?

 

[eclipsenow]

Source?

Google inflation reduction act. This is known.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Google inflation reduction act. This is known.

Lol. Okay. Whatever. I think it is best if we let @wing2000 provide a response.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

We can now add Taiwan to the list of countries wanting to negotiate.

 

[wing2000]

Source?

Have you heard of the Chips and Science Act?
Or Biden's extension of Trump's tariffs on foreign steel?
Or Biden's increased tariffs on Chinese EV's?

 

[eclipsenow]

Lol. Okay. Whatever. I think it is best if we let @wing2000 provide a response.

TARIFFS ARE ALL STICK - what about using a carrot instead?
Instead of punishing allies - what about rewarding friends at home? That’s what Biden was doing through the Inflation Reduction Act. It gave tax cuts to essential IT and computer chip manufacturing and energy and industrial sectors across America. It was stimulating the right industries without punishing allies. It also encouraged ‘friend-shoring’ to keep potential military allies on side in the new Cold War with China. Billions were being invested in battery manufacture, and would have produced so many by 2030 America could hypothetically have supplied ALL new cars with EV batteries. It created jobs and incentivised economic competitiveness without punishing vital trading partners.
Inflation Reduction Act - Wikipedia

It avoided Negative Spillovers.
Protectionist tariffs tend to have widespread, negative repercussions. They mess up supply chains, increase input costs, and spark trade wars that hurt America’s own exports. It’s messy. It generates bad will - reducing America’s reputation and soft power. Look how overseas papers are writing about the American President!

“Tariff Man” is acting like a paranoid 12-year-old bully who is convinced that everyone has wronged him, and he wants revenge. But the president’s instrument of revenge – massive tariffs – is going to do serious damage to the US and global economies. Stock market investors are convinced that’s the case, with Wall Street and world stock markets losing trillions of dollars in value in recent days as a result of Trump’s obsession.​

The president has escalated his risky, vengeful trade war even though the US economy was in strong shape when he took office – the jobless rate was just 4.1%, inflation was below 3% and US economic growth was the strongest in the industrial world, with its stock market at record levels. So it’s unclear whether the US economy needed the shock treatment that Trump is inflicting. The price increases resulting from his tariffs – which are a tax on imports – will cost the average American family $3,800 a year, according to the Budget Lab at Yale.”​

Trump’s ‘Liberation Day’ could mean recession in the US and pain worldwide | Steven Greenhouse​

 

[stevil]

TARIFFS ARE ALL STICK - what about using a carrot instead?

It is a very weird concept to punish your suppliers your trade partners for making things of value and desirable quality and price that your people want it and are willing to pay for it with money. What's wrong with that?

It would also be a very weird concept to punish your customers for not choosing to buy your products. I mean, should they be forced to buy your junk?
If you want your stuff to sell, make stuff that people want, make it with quality and good price so that people will buy from you rather than from others. This is just the way commerce goes. If people are trading with you, this is a good thing and should be encouraged. You should be doing your best to be nice to your trading partners, not trying to extort them.

But it is in Trump's nature to be a bully or gang mobster and extort, and threaten. That is his personality to a Tee.
This is what USA voted for, this is what you wanted as a representation of your country, of your brand. You get what you vote for. We all knew what Trump was like, it isn't like this is surprising, you guys voted for this.

 

[linux.poet]

MOD HAT ON​

This thread has had a cleanup off topic posts. Please stay on topic. ​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[eclipsenow]

It is a very weird concept to punish your suppliers your trade partners for making things of value and desirable quality and price that your people want it and are willing to pay for it with money. What's wrong with that?

It would also be a very weird concept to punish your customers for not choosing to buy your products. I mean, should they be forced to buy your junk?
If you want your stuff to sell, make stuff that people want, make it with quality and good price so that people will buy from you rather than from others. This is just the way commerce goes. If people are trading with you, this is a good thing and should be encouraged. You should be doing your best to be nice to your trading partners, not trying to extort them.

But it is in Trump's nature to be a bully or gang mobster and extort, and threaten. That is his personality to a Tee.
This is what USA voted for, this is what you wanted as a representation of your country, of your brand. You get what you vote for. We all knew what Trump was like, it isn't like this is surprising, you guys voted for this.

I'm Australian - and 100% with you on this.

 

[eclipsenow]

View attachment 363266

We can now add Taiwan to the list of countries wanting to negotiate.

You think this is a good thing? The irony is we were warned this is how Trump wants to see the world - on their knees before him!

Trump has certain psychological needs for attention called 'narcissistic supply'. These people don't want friends - they want worshippers. Sharing an image like the above reveals a profound dismissal of the danger America is in. The economic pain is just the start. He LOVES the world lining up to beg - he cannot help himself. He is physically incapable of caring whether or not it causes havoc and hurts the little guy.

"A second psychologist, Dr Vince Greenwood, says people with Trump’s condition “exhibit a grandiose sense of self import, derive pleasure from causing harm, and are incapable of caring about other people’s feelings.”"​

 

[Aryeh Jay]

When you're the President you can do what you want. You can grab the world by it's...

 

[trophy33]

Tomorrow, the EU member states are due to vote on reciprocal 25% tariffs against the USA, regarding some goods.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Have you heard of the Chips and Science Act?
Or Biden's extension of Trump's tariffs on foreign steel?
Or Biden's increased tariffs on Chinese EV's?

No. Probably if it is anything like the rest of Biden's "Build Back Better" plan, it was likely a scam to launder money and accomplish nothing. Which reminds me, after all the billions of dollars Biden's BBB plan spent to connect people to the internet, how many people actually got connected?

 

[wing2000]

We can now add Taiwan to the list of countries wanting to negotiate.

....the adminstration has been pressuring Taiwan to increase its defense spending (10%) so it can defend itself without relying totally on the US Navy....alas, that's a tough sell when Trump is attacking their tariff policy.

 

[wing2000]

No. Probably if it is anything like the rest of Biden's "Build Back Better" plan, it was likely a scam to launder money and accomplish nothing. Which reminds me, after all the billions of dollars Biden's BBB plan spent to connect people to the internet, how many people actually got connected?

....word is, there is a large advance chip manufacturing complex rising in the desert north of Phoenix.

...and since you asked:

Since the beginning of the Biden-Harris Administration, the Department has invested approximately $4.4 billion for 360 ReConnect awards that will bring high-speed internet access to more than 680,000 people in the most rural and remote areas of America. More than $2.2 billion of this funding, which will benefit an estimated 341,000 people, was made available through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL).

https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/press-releases/2024/12/18/biden-harris-administration-connects-people-and-businesses-rural-areas-reliable-high-speed-internet

Of course, that program may have been canceled by Elon's boys....

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You think this is a good thing? The irony is we were warned this is how Trump wants to see the world - on their knees before him!

I am just going to disregard all that phyco-analyzing mumbo jumbo and answer your question. Yes. When you look at the bigger picture and not how much Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg have lost, which they will eventually get back, it is a good thing that countries are finally coming to the table thanks to Trump's targeted pressure. Furthermore, the booming stock market was a facade that was arbitrarily created by propping up the economy by printing money and dumping it into bogus "Build Back Better" programs that never got off the ground.