15th and 16th century Christian wars Protestants having wars and even with eachother, what do we think about this today?

[The Liturgist]

But as time went on and we moved further away from the cross the church became institutionalised and abused its position.

Insofar as thats true, it is true only of the Roman church and only for a period of about 750 years from the beginnings of the Great Schism with the Orthodox until the reforms of the Council of Trent and the abolition of the Auto da Fe in Spain and Portugal.

The Church has also always been an institution. But the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have, aside from isolated incidents confined to local churches such as the Patriarchate of Constantinople, never abused their position, not in a general way. The Church of the East, which is related to but not a part of either Orthodox jurisdiction, had for a few centuries an uncanonical hereditary patriarchate but this has been abolished, but this cannot be said to be the entire church abusing its position. And its possible this uncanonical arrangement may have been beneficial in terms of preserving relations with and discouraging predation from the Muslim oppressors in Constantinople and Tehran (since the Church of the East awkwardly straddled the border between the Turkish and Persian empires).

 

[stevevw]

Insofar as thats true, it is true only of the Roman church and only for a period of about 750 years from the beginnings of the Great Schism with the Orthodox until the reforms of the Council of Trent and the abolition of the Auto da Fe in Spain and Portugal.

The Church has also always been an institution. But the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have, aside from isolated incidents confined to local churches such as the Patriarchate of Constantinople, never abused their position, not in a general way. The Church of the East, which is related to but not a part of either Orthodox jurisdiction, had for a few centuries an uncanonical hereditary patriarchate but this has been abolished, but this cannot be said to be the entire church abusing its position. And its possible this uncanonical arrangement may have been beneficial in terms of preserving relations with and discouraging predation from the Muslim oppressors in Constantinople and Tehran (since the Church of the East awkwardly straddled the border between the Turkish and Persian empires).

Yes though I think the church has generally become less like the church of Christ moving away from the cross there has always been within these splits and conflicts a genuine presense of Christ working usually in the background. There have been revivals and the interesting thing is that its always an effort to realign with what is considered the tru church, the church as it was after Christ..

The Friars and Monks of the 15th and 16th centuries for example lived like diciples, sacrificing themselves, helping the poor and needy. The Salvos rose up out of a need for helping the poor during the Industrial revolution where many came to the cities for work and ended up in slums.

I think we are overdue for another of these resets. When the church has drifted so far away from its core teachings the need for getting back to basics, to what has worked in the past, to what the teachings actually tell us will work. Which sounds simple but in a world where theres so many distractions it seems out of step and too much a commitment. But thats exactly why it works.

In a world that puts self first, sacrificing your life for another is a radical idea.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes though I think the church has generally become less like the church of Christ moving away from the cross there has always been within these splits and conflicts a genuine presense of Christ working usually in the background. There have been revivals and the interesting thing is that its always an effort to realign with what is considered the tru church, the church as it was after Christ..

The Friars and Monks of the 15th and 16th centuries for example lived like diciples, sacrificing themselves, helping the poor and needy. The Salvos rose up out of a need for helping the poor during the Industrial revolution where many came to the cities for work and ended up in slums.

All of that is specific to the Western Church. You haven’t said anything applicable to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, which have never had anything like the Protestant Reformation. When there have been controversies, it has always been in protest of bishops forcing changes onto the worship of the church which have threatened the continuity between our current worship and that of the Apostles.

The Orthodox, unlike the Western churches, have not drifted away from the original doctrine of Christ in any respect.

 

[RileyG]

If you look at the history of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox church in the 1500s, outside of Northern Europe and a few other semi-autonomous vovoideships, it was basically us being oppressed and killed by Muslims.

The one really happy moment for Western Christians during that area was the defeat of the Ottoman army on the outskirts of Vienna by the combined Christian forces led by the Polish commander Jan Sobiesky. This began the turning point in the Ottoman oppression of Europe, where Turkocratia began to be rolled back, first with the liberation of Hungary, then much of Greece, and then the rest except the area around Constantinople where the Christians are still oppressed, even moreso under the Erdogan dictatorship.

Thank you for your immense knowledge!

God bless you!

 

[stevevw]

All of that is specific to the Western Church. You haven’t said anything applicable to the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, which have never had anything like the Protestant Reformation. When there have been controversies, it has always been in protest of bishops forcing changes onto the worship of the church which have threatened the continuity between our current worship and that of the Apostles.

The Orthodox, unlike the Western churches, have not drifted away from the original doctrine of Christ in any respect.

Yes I agree. They have stayed true. I was focusing the west and how the split affected them. How the Protestant split has led to further splits within splits. This contrasts with the Catholic church which like the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches have remained true to the teachings and Gods law and order.

Its no coincident that they have also not been influenced by western ideologies such as Feminism, Egalitarianism and its latest manifestation the Critical theories, DEI and Wokism.

 

[DragonFox91]

I think too often many Christians say 'we're all friends now.' The things fought over in the past are still important. They didn't war b/c of if they thought the sky was blue or red.

 

[Amo2]

The history of God's chosen people, is the unfolding fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Which has been given to His people, that they might know and understand where they are in history, and what to expect in the possibly near future.

 

[stevevw]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

Actually I think the best place to understand the early church and their belief and practices is from the fist few church fathers like Clement of Rome around 70AD, maybe before who was a disciple of Peter and ordained by him. Also Ignatius of Antioch around 110AD who was a diciple of John. Also Polycarp of Smyrna and a few others that were the disciples of the disciples of the disciples lol.

The point is they were still very much immersed in the aftermath of Christ and the disciples. The stories were still alive and there were people around who were witnesses of knew a witness.

Its here where I think we see the development of the church structure based on the disciples setup. Everything is centered around Christ, being like Him. Many of the leaders as well as ordinary Christians including women from this period were executed so being a Christian meant being a Christian and putting your life on the line.

This was before the church gained political acceptence around 360AD. But even before this you begain to see other teachings develop that are opposing the church and thats why they had the first Council of Nicaea (325) as there was a growing dissention within the church of other denominations with alternative beliefs.

Really this was the case from the start of Christianity as even before Christ the Jews were splitting into sects with their own versions of prophesies and the teachings inclusing the Messiah. There were other Messiahsa and some sect were similar to Christianity claiming the be the Way.

But I think it was the power of Christ and its witness that made the church united and able stay true. But after time this allowed opposing beliefs and I think this setup what would later become a major schism. The Schism also came at a time when we were moving towards the Enlightenment. So people were beginning to question everyng including God.

 

[Amo2]

Yes I agree. They have stayed true. I was focusing the west and how the split affected them. How the Protestant split has led to further splits within splits. This contrasts with the Catholic church which like the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches have remained true to the teachings and Gods law and order.

Its no coincident that they have also not been influenced by western ideologies such as Feminism, Egalitarianism and its latest manifestation the Critical theories, DEI and Wokism.

Interesting. Protestants did in fact protest against the abuses of the church enabled by the power of the state. Regarding not just a few major deviations from the “teachings and God’s law and order”. These “teachings and God’s law and order” were the exact points of contention and controversy. Protestants who finally ended up having the scriptures for themselves, noticed a great differences between what the scriptures taught, and what the Roman Catholic Church in particular taught. Whose teachings were enforced by the state, which was itself a major point of contention between the Reformers and the Catholic Church.

Once Protestants became well enough established in certain places, they turned around and developed the same union with the state, which they protested against concerning the Church of Rome. This was understandable as a defense against Roman Catholicism, as it was evident that Roman Catholic leadership demanded the end of all things Protestant. Persecuting, imprisoning, burning at the steak, and wiping out entire Protestant peoples at this very time of history. It was another thing altogether, when they began persecuted other bible believing Protestants, who simply desired what they themselves had obtained concerning freedom of belief and worship.

Which is where the United States comes into the picture, in developing the matured Protestant principle of separation of Church and state. As it was populated largely by many different faiths. Many of whom came here to escape persecution at the hands of intolerant European Roman Catholics and Protestants who enforced their religions by the state. Although many of these pilgrims wished to establish their own versions of these European models, by the grace of God, freedom won the day. Freedom of religion being the basic foundation of any authentically free society. Some have mistakenly thought to make our separation of church and state out to be freedom from religion. This is erroneous though, as Atheism and or Secular Humanism are in fact religions themsleves. Systems of belief based upon faith that there is no God.

As far as the claim that Roman Catholicism has, “not been influenced by western ideologies such as Feminism, Egalitarianism and its latest manifestation the Critical theories, DEI and Wokism”, someone simply has not been paying attention to details. Pope Francis and Roman Catholic social doctrines and teaching are eaten up with such. Via teachings such as the political establishment of the Common Good, equity above equality, the redistributive state, and the universal destination of goods. Just to mention a few.

First Amendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.