15th and 16th century Christian wars Protestants having wars and even with eachother, what do we think about this today?

[JohnB445]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

Obviously knowing God and getting to know Him and about Him through the Bible is more important than history, but without knowledge of history you may not be able to understand and interpret the Bible well.

It's also useful to know the broad developments in the Christian world from the very early church to now; how theology developed, how emphases changed sometimes over time, what mistakes and corrections were made by various factions, and in what ways churches/denominations differ and why. Then you can make up your mind prayerfully and will be less inclined to repeat the mistakes or tunnel vision from the past.

I saw a historian's quote a long time ago claiming that more Christians died at the hand of other Christians than from persecution by the Romans in those first four centuries. Also the persecution of the Anabaptists and other non-mainstream believers by the 'main' reformers like Jean Calvin was horrific. Similarly for the later anti-Semitism of Marin Luther.

Btw .. many of the pilgrim fathers first fled from the UK to Holland (my native home country) because in the 17th century it was a free-haven for people from any religion (Protestants, Jews, etc.). From Holland they departed again for North-America as that newly developing region had more opportunities economically. The Dutch city of Leiden where many of those stayed still has a commemoration plague of that.

See e.g.: The Mayflower Story | Mayflower

 

[PloverWing]

This learning is good and important. It was a shameful time in our history, Christians killing other Christians in Europe and the US, and we need to remember all of it, so that we don't repeat it.

 

[Hoping2]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

Real Christians don't fight wars.
They pray for those who hate them.

Stick to the bible.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Real Christians don't fight wars.
They pray for those who hate them.

Stick to the bible.

I think I get what your intention is; are Christians who handed out death penalties to other Christians for heresy also not real Christians? Just curious ..

 

[Palmfever]

John 16
These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[PloverWing]

Real Christians don't fight wars.
They pray for those who hate them.

I agree that persecuting and killing other Christians is not the way to live out the teachings of Jesus.

I think it can be useful, though, to be aware of the temptations to which Christians have succumbed in the past, since that awareness may help keep us from repeating their mistakes in our present day.

 

[Aaron112]

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad?

Learning the truth is extremely painful, and all the more difficult because "other than" or "instead of" is published historically and recently over twenty times as much. Perhaps over , well, be astonished.

Should I focus more on the Bible?

Always. Read it like a 3 year old learning at Jesus' Knee, from Father. May He Grant Understanding in all of true Wisdom and true Knowledge daily and forever! Amen.

 

[jas3]

Studying Christian history is very worthwhile. I would recommend though that you look back farther than the 1500s, since in the grand scheme of things that's relatively late.

 

[Aaron112]

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs,

Amen. Direct Perfect Truth / Access, Fellowship, Union with Jesus and God.

but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

Can't ignore history, this is where we learn what to do and what not to do. That being said, discernment is important when reading about the past. If you are troubled or it causes you to stumble, then refrain until your faith is strong enough to provide you with fruitful understanding
Blessings

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

Learn it. Compare it with that which Christ the Lord has Personally said, done, and discussed. By this, you will become more and more prepared to distinguish between those that try to chain you to their favorite "historical christian perspectives", or those that claim to be "apostolic" by swearing of vows and other human sinful behaviors, and Christ the Lord Himself.

 

[Hoping2]

I think I get what your intention is; are Christians who handed out death penalties to other Christians for heresy also not real Christians? Just curious ..

Who is it that has the power to give or take life ?
Were we not told to pray for our enemies, and do them good ?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

It's definitely good and useful to learn about history, along with different perspectives that exist on those same accounts of history, even Christian history.

In fact, I don't know how anyone can focus on the Bible without a growing sense and understanding of what written history is .................................

 

[J_B_]

It's definitely good and useful to learn about history, along with different perspectives that exist on those same accounts of history, even Christian history.

In fact, I don't know how anyone can focus on the Bible without a growing sense and understanding of what written history is .................................

Right. Were it not for the fact that philosophy doesn't usually pay well, I probably would have taken up philosophy as a profession. A friend of mine once said that one's "true profession" shows through no matter what you do. As such, as an engineer, I often find myself instigating conversations surrounding the philosophy of engineering.

And in my studies of history, I often tend toward the philosophy of history.

That's a long way of agreeing with your very succinct statement that knowing "different perspectives" is important. The best work I've found on a Christian philosophy of history is Patterns in History by Bebbington.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right. Were it not for the fact that philosophy doesn't usually pay well, I probably would have taken up philosophy as a profession. A friend of mine once said that one's "true profession" shows through no matter what you do. As such, as an engineer, I often find myself instigating conversations surrounding the philosophy of engineering.

And in my studies of history, I often tend toward the philosophy of history.

That's a long way of agreeing with your very succinct statement that knowing "different perspectives" is important. The best work I've found on a Christian philosophy of history is Patterns in History by Bebbington.

That an additional source I'll have to keep in mind since you've mentioned it. Thanks, J.B.!

 

[heirmiles]

There are some big rabbit holes in Christian history, that the more you dig, the more you realize how much work was done theologically to bring us to where we are today. For instance, after 1000 AD, with the advent of Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, people began to think theologically in terms of Platonic, and Aristotlean frames of reference. This lead to centuries of debate and (sometimes physical) conflict, mud-slinging etc. By the time Martin Luther came around, these ideals and principles were a mainstay in European theological thought. In Luther's response to Henry viii's published work against him, he made it quite obvious that it was these principles that were being put above scripture. Luther saw that Thomist philosophy should not be the basis of interpretation of scripture, and that only the Bible should be our theological mainstay in terms of faith, life, and practice. Digging into the documents themselves can be quite enlightening. Check out the reformation section "Project Canterbury" for Luther's response to Henry, and be prepared for some spicy comments (unable to post web address, but you can find it in the reformation section of Project Canterbury). And the story of Peter Abelard (ca. '1100) is an example of the discord that erupted at that time. ccel.org/ccel/abelard/misfortunes/misfortunes?queryID=45905100&resultID=1388

 

[RileyG]

This learning is good and important. It was a shameful time in our history, Christians killing other Christians in Europe and the US, and we need to remember all of it, so that we don't repeat it.

Well said

[even though you posted this comment almost 10 years ago]

 

[stevevw]

Church history is interesting and I think by understanding this we come to understand the importance of a unified church.

I think every action has an equal and opposite reaction. We can see how Peter and Paul setup the church after Christ. Emphasing about keeping to the true teachings. Paul was constantly reminding the church about false teachings and remembering and sticking to the teachings that the diciples were given authority to lay the foundations for the church on which Peter was the rock.

But as time went on and we moved further away from the cross the church became institutionalised and abused its position. This brought about a reaction where people questioned the authority of the church and this led to a split. That split has now become many splits with varying and opposing beliefs about how we should build the church in modern times.

I think just the fact that the church has many variations that often compete is bad fruit rather than something positive regarding diversity. We should be able to go to any church in the world and find the same teachings and beliefs despite culture or ideology.

Maybe this was inevitable as we grew and were enlightened many perspectives were developed. Science and rationaility played a big part. The reformation was around the same time as the Enlightement and the rise of science. So as the world became more secularised this became the dominant norms and rather than the church influencing society it is now secular ideologies like materialism and humanism.

Its interesting that I think the Protestant arm of the church splitting in its various denominations is more likely to conform with secular ideology. As though the original split though justified was throwing the baby out with the bathwater as far as the roots of the church from Christ. Which if followed would in fact put the church in conflict with secular ideologies and liberal churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm learning about Christian history, specifically the Protestant/Catholic wars 1500's and 1600's and even the persecution of Protestants by other Protestants.

People came aboard the Mayflower for religious freedom, with them were what we would call today Baptists, Anabaptists, and others. Learning about the Puritans as well.

Is all this Christian History learning good or bad? Should I focus more on the Bible? I'm also learning other history perspectives such as Catholic Persecution by Protestants in America as well.

If you look at the history of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox church in the 1500s, outside of Northern Europe and a few other semi-autonomous vovoideships, it was basically us being oppressed and killed by Muslims.

The one really happy moment for Western Christians during that area was the defeat of the Ottoman army on the outskirts of Vienna by the combined Christian forces led by the Polish commander Jan Sobiesky. This began the turning point in the Ottoman oppression of Europe, where Turkocratia began to be rolled back, first with the liberation of Hungary, then much of Greece, and then the rest except the area around Constantinople where the Christians are still oppressed, even moreso under the Erdogan dictatorship.