Is the Rapture credible?

[Clare73]

That your interpretation of that verse is what the apostles universally taught and not simply your opinion.

It falls to you to demonstrate that this apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is not the teaching of Christ and does not mean what it states.

Yes, I do understand 1 Th 4:13-17. I have shown you that Christ and the apostles knew that believers are raised on the very last day, not before. (John 6:39). In Revelation 20:4-6, it does mention people who are raised before the last day. They are asleep in Christ, so "the dead in Christ", the martyrs, and they are raised before anyone else. They come and reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation then says that the rest of the people are not raised at this time. Then on the last day, those who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
So, it is only the martyrs who are raised before the last day. Every other person is raised on the last day. As Jesus taught.

Here is my point. I do not mind people discussing the theory of the rapture;

---------> The rapture (catching up) is not a theory, it is the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).<---------

 

[1Tonne]

It falls to you to demonstrate that this apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) is not the teaching of Christ and does not mean what it states.

You are once again trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. You originally claimed that your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' That is your claim, so it falls to you to prove that your interpretation is what Jesus and the apostles universally taught—not just what you personally believe it means.

I fully affirm what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 states, but I reject your interpretation of it as the only correct one. I have already demonstrated from Scripture (John 6:39; Revelation 20:4-6) that your interpretation contradicts other clear teachings about the resurrection timeline.

If you believe your interpretation is the one true apostolic teaching, then provide clear biblical evidence that all believers are raised before the last day, as you claim. Otherwise, your assertion remains your opinion, not an authoritative teaching of Christ.

 

[Clare73]

You are once again trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. You originally claimed that your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' That is your claim, so it falls to you to prove that your interpretation is what Jesus and the apostles universally taught—not just what you personally believe it means.

Contraire. . .

1 Th 4:16-17 couldn't be more clear and requires no more "interpretation" than does Jn 3:18.

That's a pathetic fig-leaf. . .any ole' port in a storm. . .reveals a lot about your "hermeneutics."

And personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8)
does not overturn plainly and clearly stated NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16).

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate, from didactics rather than from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles subject to more than one interpretation, my Biblical error in any of the above.

 

[1Tonne]

Contraire. . .

1 Th 4:16-17 couldn't be more clear and requires no more "interpretation" than does Jn 3:18.

That's a pathetic fig-leaf. . .any ole' port in a storm. . .reveals a lot about your "hermeneutics."

And personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8)
does not overturn plainly and clearly stated NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16).

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate, from didactics rather than from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles subject to more than one interpretation, my Biblical error in any of the above.

You are still dodging the main issue. You made the original claim that your reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' That is a positive assertion, and as the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it. Simply declaring that it 'couldn’t be more clear' does not prove your interpretation is the correct or only valid one.

I agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is clear about what will happen—the dead in Christ will rise first, and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord. But you are assuming that this means a pre-tribulation rapture of all believers. That assumption must be proven, not merely asserted.

You dismiss John 6:39 and Revelation 20:4-6 by calling them 'prophetic riddles'—yet Jesus' statement that believers are raised on 'the last day' (John 6:39) is as clear as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Likewise, Revelation 20:4-6 explicitly states that only the martyrs are raised before the rest. Your rejection of these verses is not based on clarity but on your unwillingness to consider their implications.
Also, I have shown you how your understanding of how prophecy is always written in riddles. To use this shows that your understanding is flawed.

So, instead of making empty accusations about my 'hermeneutics,' provide a clear biblical demonstration that:

1. All believers are raised before the last day rather than on it (contrary to John 6:39).
2. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 overrides Revelation 20:4-6, which states that only the martyrs are raised first.
3. Show me how you know that your understanding is the same understanding that the apostles had.

Until you do, your claim that your interpretation is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ' remains just that—your interpretation, not authoritative doctrine.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, the word "Rapture" is not in any Bible translation that I am aware of. But the Scriptures do teach we will be caught up to be with Jesus in great joy, and this is the *meaning* of the word "Rapture".

And yes it will be the resurrection of the church . . . "in the twinkling of an eye" > in 1 Corinthians 15:52 > we will be raised "incorrupible" in the almighty power of the Holy Spirit changing our bodies resurrectionally.

This, then, is a doctrine clearly presented by our Apostle Paul. It does not belong to someone more recent. It perhaps got sudden public attention, as if it had just been discovered later. But we have where our Apostle Paul speaks of >

"the resurrection"

which certain ones were saying was already "past", even in his time.

2 Timothy 2:18

Here is where Paul mentions the resurrection which some said was "already past". I see how Paul uses "resurrection" for the event which people later are calling the "Rapture".

But not all believers believe the resurrection-Rapture of the church will be pre-trib.

And I have found no scripture which *directly* says Jesus will return immediately before the Great Tribulation. However, you can read what Jesus Himself says will come to pass "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" > Matthew 24:29-31. This will include the gathering of "His elect". In the Rapture-resurrection the church will be gathered. And we are God's "elect". So, using such scripture I see how ones can support a post-trib gathering of Jesus Christ's Bride.

And Jesus says "His" elect . . . not some, but "His". This is picking at words, but it's there.

 

[com7fy8]

Even so - - - Jesus does say He will come when we do not expect, right? To me, this indeed can mean at any time even if there hasn't been an obvious tribulation like we understand the Book of Revelation is talking about.

Well, yes > Jesus does say >

"'Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.'"

This is the same quote for both Matthew 24:44 and Luke 12:40.

So, it is easy to accept that being "ready" means now and therefore in case Jesus comes . . . while I am writing this. Well . . . I'm still here.

And for some time I assumed the Rapture-resurrection of the church would come just before the Great Tribulation. People I knew told me so, there was that movie with crashing cars and planes, and different church groups were teaching pre-Trib.

But one time I noticed how people were saying they would not want to suffer in the Tribulation. Perhaps they were weak and did not know how God is able to have us doing well with Him during any situation. So, they did not have a Biblical reason for wanting to be raptured first.

Then I was hearing how Jews will be saved during the Tribulation. Well, if Jesus comes first, He will remove all the pastors with decades of maturity and experience. And so, at first, the only Christians on earth during the Trib will be newborn babies in Christ . . . if all the saved mature Christians will be raptured just before the trib. This would mean newborn babies will do well with no one mature to help them . . . during the most horrible time ever on this earth!!! And since the Trib is only seven years long, these Christians will all have less than seven years of Christian experience. And yet, they will serve God and do well for Jesus. And these won't have our decades-mature pastors to mentor them and be their "examples to the flock" (in 1 Peter 5:3).

Won't Jesus provide these servants in the Trib with seasoned pastoring couples and other mature church members?? Why would Christ have us forsake newborns who are His Bride in the Trib while we go to Heaven to have the Wedding Feast? After all, whoever becomes saved during the Trib will also be part of the Bride.

And our Apostle Paul stayed here to suffer such great tribulation, in order to help us; Paul would have loved to die and go to be with Jesus; yet, he said >

"Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:24)

So, I considered that Jesus could want volunteers to stay here to minister to the Jews and others who will be saved during the Trib. But I should not boast that I would do well; this would be an honor for Jesus to give.

Then I got the brilliant idea of searching the Scriptures to see if God's word says anything like, "Jesus will return just before the Tribulation." Seven words would be enough to say clearly what people have been preaching sermons and writing books to say.

And I did not find any such statement. But I have read what comes "Immediately after" (Matthew 24:29-31). Plus > if "the dead in Christ will rise first" . . . *before* the living get raptured > the dead of the tribulation period would be rising *after* the living of a pre-trib Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:16.

So, I can see how Jesus means to be "ready" for Him and for any tribulation to be shared with Him. He will be with us, in any case. And with Jesus "you will find rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:29). No matter what we go through - - - God is able to keep us in His love's rest.

If newborn babies can serve Jesus during the Trib . . . this is because of how God is able.

Those wrath judgments won't harm God's children. This world's evil people will be the ones having such a hard time. While they might refuse to do business with us . . . they will be the ones being killed and tormented. Food trucks can crash because of drivers getting stung and killed. Houses and huts and caves will be left behind by Satan's people who are killed and fleeing. We can pick our dwelling, eat food left behind by executed sinners, maybe adopt their kids and bring them up for Jesus. Each day, we can choose a dwelling, use a different abandoned car or donkey, piggy-back our new children.

 

[1Tonne]

Yes, the word "Rapture" is not in any Bible translation that I am aware of. But the Scriptures do teach we will be caught up to be with Jesus in great joy, and this is the *meaning* of the word "Rapture".

And yes it will be the resurrection of the church . . . "in the twinkling of an eye" > in 1 Corinthians 15:52 > we will be raised "incorrupible" in the almighty power of the Holy Spirit changing our bodies resurrectionally.

This, then, is a doctrine clearly presented by our Apostle Paul.

The question is, when will the church be raised? Jesus said on the last day and not before. Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection. It is for the martyrs, and it then specifically states that it is only the martyrs and no one else. This is the first resurrection. We also see in 1 Thes 4 two separate resurrections. The first one is for the dead in Christ, or those who sleep. This is the martyrs. Then after they have been (reigned for 1000 years), we have another resurrection where we meet the Lord in the air, and then we will be with Him forever. This second resurrection is on the last day, as Jesus said.
So, yes, the Apostle Paul did teach of the resurrection. But he did not teach a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.
So, I want Clair73 to show me where the apostles taught a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture.

And I have found no scripture which *directly* says Jesus will return immediately before the Great Tribulation. However, you can read what Jesus Himself says will come to pass "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" > Matthew 24:29-31. This will include the gathering of "the elect". In the Rapture-resurrection the church will be gathered. And we are God's "elect". So, using such scripture I see how ones can support a post-trib gathering of Jesus Christ's Bride.

And Jesus says "the" elect . . . not some, but "the". This is picking at words, but it's there.

If we look at the verse you mentioned, Matthew 24:31 says that the angels will gather the elect from heaven. Not from Earth.
"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matt 24:31
In Revelation, the only people in heaven that are mentioned are the martyrs. They are dressed in white robes or linen. So, the angels gather the elect (martyrs) and return with them to earth and reign for 1000 years.
In Revelation 19:11-16 we see the overview account of when Jesus returns and conquers the antichrist. In verse 14 we see the martyrs again who are dressed in white linen. These are the only ones who return with Him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 focuses on the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. This passage describes how, at the end of time, the Lord will descend from heaven, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord.

The passage is not referring to the "Rapture" in the way some Protestant traditions do. Instead, it emphasises the unity of the Church—both the living and the dead—at Christ's return. The phrase "caught up together" is understood as a moment of transformation and glorification for Christians, rather than a secret or separate event.

 

[Clare73]

You are still dodging the main issue. You made the original claim that your reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ.' That is a positive assertion, and as the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it.

Done. . .

It falls to you to address the Biblical demonstration (Scriptures) presented with it.

Lotta' dodging and dancing in lieu of addressing the Scripture presented.

I will respond regarding "the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16)" when you address those.

Your excitable hermeneutic is grossly flawed.
Personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8, no matter how you try to overthrow this text) does not govern NT teaching.

 

[1Tonne]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 focuses on the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. This passage describes how, at the end of time, the Lord will descend from heaven, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord.

The passage is not referring to the "Rapture" in the way some Protestant traditions do. Instead, it emphasises the unity of the Church—both the living and the dead—at Christ's return. The phrase "caught up together" is understood as a moment of transformation and glorification for Christians, rather than a secret or separate event.

I believe, like you, that it is speaking of the last day resurrection (vs 17), but it also speaks about the first resurrection of the dead, which are the martyrs, as in Revelation 20:4-6

One thing that has always seemed strange with this thinking is, why does God not raise the living and the dead at the same time? Why does he have to separate them? In the sheep and goats' judgment, it looks like he gathers everyone at the same time. So, he gathers all the believers and non-believers, both the living and the dead.

Address the Biblical demonstration (Scriptures) presented with it.

I will respond regarding "the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16)" when you address those.

It makes me laugh how, after repeatedly asserting time and time again, thread after thread, that your view is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ,' you now refuse to provide any actual evidence that the apostles taught it. If you truly had a solid biblical demonstration proving that the apostles believed in a pre-tribulation rapture, you would have eagerly presented it by now. Instead, you’ve sidestepped the question and tried to shift the focus elsewhere because you cannot prove it. (You cannot defend it. LOL).
Blessings.

 

[Clare73]

I believe, like you, that it is speaking of the last day resurrection (vs 17), but it also speaks about the first resurrection of the dead, which are the martyrs, as in Revelation 20:4-6

Previously addressed. . .

 

[1Tonne]

Previously addressed. . .

Thank you. Yes, I have previously addressed Thessalonians 4 and also Revelation 20.
Now you need to address why your view is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ' as you have not. So, provide any actual evidence that the apostles taught it.

 

[com7fy8]

on the last day

And, by the way, Jesus says "at the last trumpet". So, can this mean the seventh trumpet we see in Revelation?

 

[Clare73]

Thank you. Yes, I have previously addressed Thessalonians 4 and also Revelation 20.
Now you need to address why your view is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ' as you have not. So, provide any actual evidence that the apostles taught it.

See posts #64, #70.

 

[1Tonne]

And, by the way, Jesus says "at the last trumpet". So, can this mean the seventh trumpet we see in Revelation?

He does return with a trumpet call in verse 16. But it does not say that it is one of the 7 trumpets in Revelation. Trumpet blasts are often used when a king is entering a place. The trumpet in 1 Thes 4 simply shows that Jesus is the King of Kings.
But I agree that the 7th trumpet blown in Revelation is on the last day. So, the day we are caught up in the air (1 Thes 4:17). This trumpet blast is for every believer and non-believer to go to judgment. This is also mentioned in 1 Cor 15:51-52, "Behold, I am telling you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” So, at the last trumpet, on the last day, we will all be raised up and judged at the Great White Throne Judgement, which is in Rev 20:11-15.
The Great White Throne Judgment is also mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 in what is called the sheep and goats' judgment. Believers and non-believers are gathered at the same time. The judgment is also mentioned in Romans 14:10, saying, "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” So, both believers and non-believers are judged on the last day at the last trumpet.

See posts #64, #70.

???????? You said that I had already addressed this, which I have many times. Not just in this thread but in other threads that you and I have been in.
You seem very double-minded. One moment you are saying that I have addressed this, the next moment you are wanting me to address it again.

But for you, I will go through and explain 1 Thes 4:13-18. Then, since I have fulfilled my part of your demand, you should be fulfilling your promise to show where the apostles also taught that the rapture was their belief. Not just an assumption.

1 Thes 4:13-17
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [sleep in Jesus." Verse 13-14
Verses 13 and 14 say that people should not grieve for the dead believers, and that the dead believers will be raised and return with Him. The wording at the end of verse 14 says that they fell asleep in Christ. This implies that they died for the testimony of Christ. So, this would be the martyrs as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. If this is the martyrs, then they come and reign for 1000 years with Christ.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Verses 15
Then, verse 15 is simply saying that we who are alive right now should not expect to be raised until the martyrs have been raised. We will not proceed them. The dead in Christ who are the martyrs are raised first, and then on the last day, we too will be raised.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Verse 16
This is going into more detail about when Jesus returns with the martyrs. There will be a shout from an archangel and a trumpet sound. And the martyrs will be raised in the first resurrection.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." Verse 17
This is the last day. We who are here on the very last day will be raised up in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor 15:51-52) to go to judgment. Believers will then be with the Lord forever, while others will be condemned.

Now, I have fulfilled your demand. Please keep your part of your promise and do not try to avoid it as you always do.

 

[Clare73]

I believe, like you, that it is speaking of the last day resurrection (vs 17), but it also speaks about the first resurrection of the dead, which are the martyrs, as in Revelation 20:4-6
One thing that has always seemed strange with this thinking is, why does God not raise the living and the dead at the same time? Why does he have to separate them? In the sheep and goats' judgment, it looks like he gathers everyone at the same time. So, he gathers all the believers and non-believers, both the living and the dead.
It makes me laugh how, after repeatedly asserting time and time again, thread after thread, that your view is 'the apostolic teaching of Christ,' you now refuse to provide any actual evidence that the apostles taught it. If you truly had a solid biblical demonstration proving that the apostles believed in a pre-tribulation rapture, you would have eagerly presented it by now. Instead, you’ve sidestepped the question and tried to shift the focus elsewhere because you cannot prove it. (You cannot defend it. LOL).
Blessings.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[ARBITER01]

Eph 5:29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ also does the church;

Do people really believe the body of Christ is going to suffer the wrath of GOD during the tribulation?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Previously addressed. . .

The topic, that is the topic of the meaning of saint Paul's words in First Thessalonians, was previously addressed around two thousand years ago. That you've decided to support views invented in the nineteenth century by leaders of some of the worlds non-christian bible-quoting religions and by a number of people who indirectly became the founders of a few restorationist christian religions isn't evidence supporting the interpretations that you claim are true.

This passage is about the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age in which we live.

We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God,through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven,and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words.​

1Th 4:13-18 NAB
There's nothing about a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation 'rapture', nothing that is remotely like the novels "Left Behind" and its sequels. Those are religious folk stories that mislead and deceive the people who take them to heart, incorporating them into their eschatology.

 

[1Tonne]

Address the Biblical demonstration (Scriptures) presented with it.

I will respond regarding "the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16)" when you address those.

Previously addressed. . .

I addressed the first part of the deal you made, and now you have backed out of your part. I knew you would not keep to your word. Hollow.

 

[1Tonne]

Eph 5:29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ also does the church;

Do people really believe the body of Christ is going to suffer the wrath of GOD during the tribulation?

It’s true that Christ loves His church deeply — Ephesians 5:29 is a beautiful picture of that care. But love doesn’t always mean escape from suffering. In fact, Scripture repeatedly shows that believers are called to endure tribulation, not be removed from it.

Jesus Himself said in John 16:33, “In this world you will have tribulation; but take heart, I have overcome the world.” He didn’t promise His followers exemption from hardship — He promised His presence and ultimate victory through it.

The early church knew this well. In Acts 14:22, Paul and Barnabas encouraged believers by saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” And Paul himself wrote in Romans 8:36, “For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Yet, he adds that in all these things “we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”

The idea that Christians will be raptured out before tribulation assumes that God's wrath and the tribulations of the end times are the same thing. But there’s a distinction. God knows how to preserve His people through His judgments — just like He protected Israel during the plagues in Egypt (Exodus 8–12), or Noah in the ark, or the faithful remnant in Babylon.

And what about the martyrs in Revelation 6:9–11 and Revelation 20:4 — those who were killed for their testimony during the tribulation? They are called blessed, and they reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These aren’t people who missed the rapture — these are faithful believers who endured and overcame.

Christ nourishes and cherishes His church, yes — and sometimes that means walking with her through the fire, not lifting her out of it.