One divine person in Jesus

[Theophilus Agapee]

We can say that:

100%Person = 100%Divinity
100%Person = 100%Humanity
100%Person = 100%Divinity+100%Humanity

It's not an addition, but Union. A person cannot have two natures. If you divide the Essences, you get two Persons, two Christs. And this is what you're doing as Dyophysites.

Person is indivisible. Therefore, the Person of Christ is fully God, fully man, fully God-man. Therefore, we say that God is man. It is absolutely logical, if you think about it.

In your heresy, you do not have the SAME Person incarnated.

But this option is heretical:

100%Divinity=100%Humanity=100%God-humanity

Yes, Divinity did not turn to Humanity.

I found a good quote from Grigor Tatevatsi that refutes this misconception.

Divinity and humanity are not similar to each other and are not applicable to the whole

Yes, the Essences are really distinct. We are not kidding, as Dyophysites think. But the two Essences are really UNITED in ONE Nature. The Nature is applicable to the WHOLE Person of Christ.

 

[Tigran1245]

It's not an addition, but Union. A person cannot have two natures. If you divide the Essences, you get two Persons, two Christs. And this is what you're doing as Dyophysites.

We do not talk about 2 natures for only two reasons.

1) In order not to count all natures. Because we will have to talk about three or more natures.

2) One hypostasis must have only one definition and one nature. In other words, if there are 2 natures, there will be 2 hypostases.

In your heresy, you do not have the SAME Person incarnated.

Show me the place where I wrote that it was not the same person who was incarnated?

Yes, the Essences are really distinct. We are not kidding, as Dyophysites think. But the two Essences are really UNITED in ONE Nature. The Nature is applicable to the WHOLE Person of Christ.

Yes, Divine nature is applicable to the Whole Person of Christ, but not to the Whole nature of Christ, as St. Grigor said.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

We do not talk about 2 natures for only two reasons.

1) In order not to count all natures. Because we will have to talk about three or more natures.

2) One hypostasis must have only one definition and one nature. In other words, if there are 2 natures, there will be 2 hypostases.

If we talk about two Natures after the Union, then we have two Persons. This is your error as a Semi-Nestorian.

Show me the place where I wrote that it was not the same person who was incarnated?

You keep talking about the change of the Person: in your theory, the Person of Christ was fully or wholly Divine before the Incarnation, then after the Incarnation He became Divine only in part. And you clearly used the term "part". In your Semi-Nestorian theory, the whole Person of Christ is NOT Divine anymore. So we got another person here. In your Semi-Nestorian theory God was NOT manifested in the flesh, and John is making an error when he says in his Epistle that they have SEEN Him and TOUCHED Him.

The Son became flesh without ceasing to be Divine. This whole Human Person is wholly that Divine Person, the Logos. The Human Essence is NOT that body and soul! The Human Essence is the Essence of that body and soul! That body and soul are the Human Person who is the same Person of the Logos, not another Person to whom the Logos was united. The Human Essence does NOT have a Person or a Hypostasis (in the sense of Persona). The Person of this Human Essence is the Logos Himself! This is the same Second Person of the Trinity who is wholly Divine.

Yes, Divine nature is applicable to the Whole Person of Christ, but not to the Whole nature of Christ, as St. Grigor said.

Great! So let's go back to the beginning of our discussion: Is Christ's hand part of His whole Person? If the Divine Essence is applicable to the WHOLE Person of Christ, as you now say, then is the Divine Essence applicable to Christ's hand in the Union of the Nature? Is Christ's hand Divine-Human by Nature? Is it wholly Divine and wholly Human by Nature, though only Human by Essence?

 

[Tigran1245]

You keep talking about the change of the Person: in your theory, the Person of Christ was fully or wholly Divine before the Incarnation, then after the Incarnation He became Divine only in part. And you clearly used the term "part".

Once again. The Fathers use "part" when they speak of the different properties of Christ. God the Word, soul and body are the parts that create the whole of Christ, according to Grigor Tatevatsi:

And regarding [division of the] whole into parts, as with the diminution of one part the whole becomes imperfect, likewise God the Word, spirit, and body totally united are Christ, and by the diminution of one [of them] Christ does not remain.

But the Person of Word is full God the Word, full flesh, full soul.

In your Semi-Nestorian theory, the whole Person of Christ is NOT Divine anymore. So we got another person here. In your Semi-Nestorian theory God was NOT manifested in the flesh, and John is making an error when he says in his Epistle that they have SEEN Him and TOUCHED Him.

Person of Word is the full God the Word, full flesh, full soul. He has full divine and full human nature.

The Son became flesh without ceasing to be Divine. This whole Human Person is wholly that Divine Person, the Logos. The Human Essence is NOT that body and soul! The Human Essence is the Essence of that body and soul! That body and soul are the Human Person who is the same Person of the Logos, not another Person to whom the Logos was united. The Human Essence does NOT have a Person or a Hypostasis (in the sense of Persona). The Person of this Human Essence is the Logos Himself! This is the same Second Person of the Trinity who is wholly Divine.

Great! So let's go back to the beginning of our discussion: Is Christ's hand part of His whole Person?

Not part. Whole Person has whole hand. But hand is part of Nature.

If the Divine Essence is applicable to the WHOLE Person of Christ, as you now say, then is the Divine Essence applicable to Christ's hand in the Union of the Nature?

No. Watch picture

Is Christ's hand Divine-Human by Nature?

No. Only hand nature. Not human or divine. It can be only called divine or human, because of union, but not by nature. For instance, Christ flesh is uncreated by union with divinity and created by its nature.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Once again. The Fathers use "part" when they speak of the different properties of Christ. God the Word, soul and body are the parts that create the whole of Christ, according to Grigor Tatevatsi:

And regarding [division of the] whole into parts, as with the diminution of one part the whole becomes imperfect, likewise God the Word, spirit, and body totally united are Christ, and by the diminution of one [of them] Christ does not remain.

But the Person of Word is full God the Word, full flesh, full soul.

Grigor Tatevatsi says you should NOT divide Christ into parts, and you quote him to prove the opposite.

As I said, you keep talking about the change of the Person: in your theory, the Person of Christ was fully or wholly Divine before the Incarnation, then after the Incarnation He became Divine only in part. And you clearly used the term "part". You are Semi-Nestorian. You don't need to explain your point further: anyone who reads this discussion carefully has already seen that you are Semi-Nestorian.

Person of Word is the full God the Word, full flesh, full soul. He has full divine and full human nature.

In your heresy, the WHOLE Person is NOT Human 100%. You have another person besides the Logos. You are Semi-Nestorian, if not fully Nestorian.

Not part. Whole Person has whole hand. But hand is part of Nature.

The WHOLE Person is Divine-Human by Nature. The hand is Divine-Human by Nature, though Human by Essence.

You have clarified your point. This is Semi-Nestorianism. We have seen what the Confession of the Orthodox Faith says.

No. Watch pictureView attachment 363006

As all can see, you divided Christ to parts, and thus you have made of Him more than one Person.

This is Semi-Nestorianism, if not full Nestorianism.

No. Only hand nature. Not human or divine. It can be only called divine or human, because of union, but not by nature.

The Nature is that Union. But in your heresy, the Union is just a dream, and you still have two separate natures. You are Nestorian.

For instance, Christ flesh is uncreated by union with divinity and created by its nature.

Flesh = Human Essence. Christ does NOT have two separate Essences that are added to each other, but two Essences UNITED in One Nature in One Person, the Person of the Logos.

 

[Tigran1245]

Grigor Tatevatsi says you should NOT divide Christ into parts, and you quote him to prove the opposite.

Tatevatsi does not divide, but distinguishes. And parts of nature, not parts of personality.

As I said, you keep talking about the change of the Person: in your theory, the Person of Christ was fully or wholly Divine before the Incarnation, then after the Incarnation He became Divine only in part.

As you can see in the picture, 100% Person has 100% Deity.

And you clearly used the term "part". You are Semi-Nestorian.

Tatevatsi uses the word part, not I only.

In your heresy, the WHOLE Person is NOT Human 100%. You have another person besides the Logos. You are Semi-Nestorian, if not fully Nestorian.

Show the second Person in my picture!

The Person in my drawing is the top point of the triangle. We can see the triangle of the God-human nature, we can see two small triangles inside the big one. One top point (Peeson) will be the same in all three triangles. Therefore 100% Person is 100% Divine, 100%human, 100%God-human.

The WHOLE Person is Divine-Human by Nature. The hand is Divine-Human by Nature, though Human by Essence.\

Stop making up terminology

As all can see, you divided Christ to parts, and thus you have made of Him more than one Person.

Show me the second Person in the picture. Or are you a liar?

The Nature is that Union. But in your heresy, the Union is just a dream, and you still have two separate natures. You are Nestorian.

I have one composite nature. This is Nestorian heresy:

Flesh = Human Essence. Christ does NOT have two separate Essences that are added to each other, but two Essences UNITED in One Nature in One Person, the Person of the Logos.

You introduce a mixture and a simple nature and blaspheme Cyril of Alexandria and other Fathers who explained the concept of natural union in an Orthodox way, as a union of the soul and the body of man. Everyone teaches that the Person of Christ is one and it includes all the properties of the Godhead and humanity. But no one has taught the heresy, the one nature of Christ = only Divine = only human. Grigor Tatevatsi condemns this heresy:

Divinity and humanity are not similar to each other and are not applicable to the whole

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Tatevatsi does not divide, but distinguishes. And parts of nature, not parts of personality.

Yes, we do not divide, but we distinguish the two Essences. We don't have "parts" in the sense that you are using this term "part" and you are misquoting Tatevatsi.

Parts of nature, and not parts of personality? Look at your triangle, and answer me: Was this WHOLE Person, the Second Person of the Trinity, in the tomb for those 3 days after the Crucifixion? If not, then you should realize that you are dividing the Person of Christ by dividing the Essences, as you are Semi-Nestorian, although you claim to unite them. To claim something doesn't automatically make what we claim truth. Roman Catholics claim that they do not worship the Virgin Mary, but only venerate her; does this change the fact that they worship Mary? You claim that you don't divide the natures like Nestorians, but you only distinguish them; does this change the fact that you are dividing the Essences and thus you are a Semi-Nestorian?

As you can see in the picture, 100% Person has 100% Deity.

As I can see in your picture, 100% of the Word is NOT Human! Your "Word" is joined (addition) to body and soul! When Christ was in the tomb, your two "Christs" appeared suddenly: One of them (Word joined to body) lies in the tomb, the other one (Word joined to soul) goes to declare his victory in Hadys. Your Semi-Nestorian triangle is destroyed at Christ's death, and the two "Christs" appear! Your WHOLE 100% Person does not stay in the tomb; your WHOLE 100% Person does not go to Hadys. You don't have ONE Christ who is 100% the same Logos Person, fully Divine-Human. You are a Semi-Nestorian.

Tatevatsi uses the word part, not I only.

Tatevatsi does not use the word "part" in your sense, but he uses it to deny the division of Christ to parts! If you divide Christ to parts, says he, you don't have one Christ anymore. You say: "Oh! Then there are parts in Christ!" And thus you are a Semi-Nestorian, brainwashed by Nestorian apologists and misquoting Miaphysite theologians.

Show the second Person in my picture!

I already did! Read above.

The Person in my drawing is the top point of the triangle. We can see the triangle of the God-human nature, we can see two small triangles inside the big one. One top point (Peeson) will be the same in all three triangles. Therefore 100% Person is 100% Divine, 100%human, 100%God-human.

And we have seen how your "Word" is NOT the WHOLE of this triangle, but only a part of it.

Stop making up terminology

I am reforming the terminology in order to clarify the Miaphysite Christology. Your Nestorian friends do not like it that things are getting clarified, and thus their heresy is being exposed in a better way. While Miaphysite leaders are trying to find the best terminology in order to show the unity of doctrine with the Chalcedonians, as Pope Shenouda did in the Common Formula on Christology:

"We believe that our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate-Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity one with His Divinity without mixture nor mingling, nor confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His Humanity even for a moment or twinkling of an eye. At the same time, we anathematize the doctrines of both Nestorius and Eutyches."
— Mixed Commission of the Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church: Common formula on
Christology

In one of his speeches, Pope Shenouda said that it was he who suggested this formula, and it was accepted by the Roman Catholic theologians.

We should always use the best terminology in order to show and clarify the right doctrine. But your Nestorian friends prefer to stay in the ambiguities of the misunderstood Greek terms that caused the Nestorian and Chalcedonian controversies.

Show me the second Person in the picture. Or are you a liar?

I showed you.

Why would I lie? A person who loves you, tells you the truth, even if that truth will hurt you.

I have one composite nature. This is Nestorian heresy:

View attachment 363041

As I explained above, you don't differ from this. I just don't call your heresy Nestorianism, because you claim that you keep the natures joined in one person. But after all, you have two "Christs": one is the Word, and the other is the human "Christ". So you are Semi-Nestorian.

You introduce a mixture and a simple nature and blaspheme Cyril of Alexandria and other Fathers who explained the concept of natural union in an Orthodox way, as a union of the soul and the body of man.

The body is WHOLLY human by nature of the union; the soul is WHOLLY human by nature of the union. You deny that Christ is WHOLLY Divine-Human by Nature of the Union. And in the example of the union of body and soul we do NOT have a preexistent person who was incarnated, so the body-soul union does NOT fully describe the Union in Christ. And I am NOT mixing the Essences; I am just upholding the One undivided Nature and Person of Christ.

Everyone teaches that the Person of Christ is one and it includes all the properties of the Godhead and humanity. But no one has taught the heresy, the one nature of Christ = only Divine = only human. Grigor Tatevatsi condemns this heresy:


Divinity and humanity are not similar to each other and are not applicable to the whole

Indeed, the One Nature of Christ is NOT only Divine and It is NOT only Human, but FULLY Divine-Human at the same time or simultaneously. The Divine Essence did NOT turn to Human Essence, nor did the Human Essence turn to Divine Essence. The WHOLE Logos (the Second Person of the Trinity) is Divine; the WHOLE Logos (the Second Person of the Trinity) is Human: Divine and Human at the same time or simultaneously. As Pope Shenouda suggested to Chalcedonian Roman Catholics, we can say: Christ "is perfect in His Divinity and perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity one with His Divinity without mixture nor mingling, nor confusion."

Indeed, His Humanity is ONE (really ONE!) with His Divinity! He is One Christ with One Divine-Human Nature.

And with the Joint Commission of the Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, we declare: Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, "is true God and true Man at the same time, perfect in His Divinity, perfect in His humanity. Because the one she bore in her womb was at the same time fully God as well as fully human we call the Blessed Virgin Theotokos." (You can find this First Agreed Statement (1989) on the website of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California and Hawaii here.

Concentrate on the expression "at the same time" ("simultaneously") which I emphasized. Learn the orthodox Christology.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, we do not divide, but we distinguish the two Essences. We don't have "parts" in the sense that you are using this term "part" and you are misquoting Tatevatsi.

Parts of nature, and not parts of personality? Look at your triangle, and answer me: Was this WHOLE Person, the Second Person of the Trinity, in the tomb for those 3 days after the Crucifixion? If not, then you should realize that you are dividing the Person of Christ by dividing the Essences, as you are Semi-Nestorian, although you claim to unite them. To claim something doesn't automatically make what we claim truth. Roman Catholics claim that they do not worship the Virgin Mary, but only venerate her; does this change the fact that they worship Mary?

Catholics believe the worship given to God is for God alone. God is infinitely far above any creature.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Catholics believe the worship given to God is for God alone. God is infinitely far above any creature.

Yes, I know that they claim this. Practically, for them Mary is Co-Redemptrix, and they pray to her and worship her. They believe she can hear their prayers wherever they are simultaneously, because she has the divine attribute of omnipresence.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, I know that they claim this. Practically, for them Mary is Co-Redemptrix, and they pray to her and worship her. They believe she can hear their prayers wherever they are simultaneously, because she has the divine attribute of omnipresence.

So you're a mind reader. Catholics don't claim such a power. God does allow the saints in Heaven to hear our prayers. God is all powerful, do not doubt that He can do this.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

So you're a mind reader. Catholics don't claim such a power. God does allow the saints in Heaven to hear our prayers. God is all powerful, do not doubt that He can do this.

I am not a mind reader, but a Bible reader. I know from the Word of God that God Alone can hear prayers, as He is Omnipresent and Omniscient, and I know that He is our ONLY Redeemer. So if one gives these attributes to a creature, then he is worshiping that creature.

Yes, God is all powerful, so can He lie? Can He contradict Himself? Can He give His Glory to someone else? Are these abilities or weaknesses?

Anyways, this is off topic in this thread. If you want, we can open a thread about this and discuss this topic.

 

[Valletta]

I am not a mind reader, but a Bible reader. I know from the Word of God that God Alone can hear prayers, as He is Omnipresent and Omniscient, and I know that He is our ONLY Redeemer. So if one gives these attributes to a creature, then he is worshiping that creature.

Yes, God is all powerful, so can He lie? Can He contradict Himself? Can He give His Glory to someone else? Are these abilities or weaknesses?

Anyways, this is off topic in this thread. If you want, we can open a thread about this and discuss this topic.

Psalm 103
20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
hearkening to the voice of his word! RSVCE

David tells the angels to bless the Lord.

 

[Tigran1245]

Parts of nature, and not parts of personality? Look at your triangle, and answer me: Was this WHOLE Person, the Second Person of the Trinity, in the tomb for those 3 days after the Crucifixion?

Yes, whole Person was in the tomb, in heaven and in haides.

Personality belongs entirely to every quality of nature. Therefore, if you take away or add qualities, the Person does not change. When a human dies, he loses the body and only the nature of the soul remains. But the Person does not change. 50% of the human Person does NOT disappear with the body. Because the Personality is absolutely indivisible.

As I can see in your picture, 100% of the Word is NOT Human!

The Person of the Word is man.

But the hypostasis of the Word did not turn into flesh and did not change into flesh, because the Deity does not change. The hypostasis of the naked Word is neither man nor Christ, as Tatevatsi and Khosrovik said. We are not monophysites. The Word incarnate is man and Christ.

The difference between the Person and the hypostasis of the Word is clearly shown in the picture.

Your WHOLE 100% Person does not stay in the tomb; your WHOLE 100% Person does not go to Hadys. You don't have ONE Christ who is 100% the same Logos Person, fully Divine-Human. You are a Semi-Nestorian.

You are confusing the concepts of Person and Hypostasis in the picture.

As I explained above, you don't differ from this. I just don't call your heresy Nestorianism, because you claim that you keep the natures joined in one person. But after all, you have two "Christs": one is the Word, and the other is the human "Christ". So you are Semi-Nestorian.

No one has ever confessed Christ as the naked Word hypostasis. This is rude heresy of Leontius of Byzantium, that the Divine hypostasis by it own nature became flesh. Fathers of the Armenian Church and other Oriental Churches condemned this teaching as hidden docetism.

Chalcedonians measured the terminology: for them, hypostasis = person of Christ. Having mixed two different terms, they even had a heresy that Christ is not an individual, but only a universal man...

Orthodox understanding of hypostasis is an individual nature. Christ was not only out of two common natures, but also out of two individual natures, since Christ accepted individual properties of humanity. And in the union there is one simple person, one composite hypostasis and one composite nature.

 

[Tigran1245]

Yes, I know that they claim this. Practically, for them Mary is Co-Redemptrix, and they pray to her and worship her.

Dude, you don't know not only the doctrine of Armenian Church, but also the Catholic one. Catholics, calling Mary a co-redemptrix, understand this as the fact that the Virgin Mary, by virtue of her exceptional holiness and special connection with the Son, took a special, unique part in the events of the Redemption, accomplished, of course, exclusively by Christ.

They believe she can hear their prayers wherever they are simultaneously, because she has the divine attribute of omnipresence.

Any saint can hear all prayers and know everything on the Earth at the same time.

From Ghevond Vardapet, “Book of Questions”, Jerusalem, 2011:

Do the deceased know what is happening on Earth?
The righteous know and pray for the living, but sinners themselves do not know, Angels or demons tell them.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Psalm 103
20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
hearkening to the voice of his word! RSVCE

David tells the angels to bless the Lord.

Ps 148:3
"Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all stars of light!"

David tells the sun, the moon and the stars to praise the Lord. So go ahead: pray to the sun and the moon and the stars...

 

[Valletta]

Ps 148:3
"Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all stars of light!"

David tells the sun, the moon and the stars to praise the Lord. So go ahead: pray to the sun and the moon and the stars...

Do you believe the Apostles were equal with God because God let them perform miracles? It is God who lets those in Heaven here us just as it was God who let the Apostles perform miracles. The Word of God tells us to pray for one another, those in Heaven are alive, not dead. They are alive and can hear us and they pray for us because God wills it.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Yes, whole Person was in the tomb, in heaven and in haides.

That 100% body which is in your triangle was in Heaven and in Hadys? Okay... Let the readers judge...

Personality belongs entirely to every quality of nature. Therefore, if you take away or add qualities, the Person does not change. When a human dies, he loses the body and only the nature of the soul remains. But the Person does not change. 50% of the human Person does NOT disappear with the body. Because the Personality is absolutely indivisible.

We have seen how your Semi-Nestorian triangle is destroyed at Christ's death.

The Person of the Word is man.

Yes, you have the Word and the Person of the Word: Two "Christs".

But the hypostasis of the Word did not turn into flesh and did not change into flesh, because the Deity does not change. The hypostasis of the naked Word is neither man nor Christ, as Tatevatsi and Khosrovik said. We are not monophysites. The Word incarnate is man and Christ.

There is ONE Person who is Christ and Man. Christ is both God and Man at the same time, i.e. simultaneously.

The difference between the Person and the hypostasis of the Word is clearly shown in the picture.

Yes, it is clear in your picture how you have two "Christs".

You are confusing the concepts of Person and Hypostasis in the picture.

Yes, you have two "Christs" with two Hypostases, just like Nestorians. Semi-Nestorians do not differ much from Nestorians.

No one has ever confessed Christ as the naked Word hypostasis. This is rude heresy of Leontius of Byzantium, that the Divine hypostasis by it own nature became flesh. Fathers of the Armenian Church and other Oriental Churches condemned this teaching as hidden docetism.

Yes, we condemn that heresy, as well as your heresy.

Chalcedonians measured the terminology: for them, hypostasis = person of Christ. Having mixed two different terms, they even had a heresy that Christ is not an individual, but only a universal man...

No, the whole Church believes that Christ is One Person, the same Second Person of the Trinity. Check again the common statements between Chalcedonians and Miaphysites.

Orthodox understanding of hypostasis is an individual nature. Christ was not only out of two common natures, but also out of two individual natures, since Christ accepted individual properties of humanity. And in the union there is one simple person, one composite hypostasis and one composite nature.

That's why we do not keep fighting on the meaning of Hypostasis and we reform our terminology in order to express our doctrine clearly. Check again the common statements and the Confession of the Orthodox Faith where the term Hypostasis is not even mentioned.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Dude, you don't know not only the doctrine of Armenian Church, but also the Catholic one. Catholics, calling Mary a co-redemptrix, understand this as the fact that the Virgin Mary, by virtue of her exceptional holiness and special connection with the Son, took a special, unique part in the events of the Redemption, accomplished, of course, exclusively by Christ.

Yes, some Roman Catholics give Mary part of the Glory that belongs to Christ Alone, i.e. to God Alone. ("Some" was added by moderators).

Any saint can hear all prayers and know everything on the Earth at the same time.

From Ghevond Vardapet, “Book of Questions”, Jerusalem, 2011:

Do the deceased know what is happening on Earth?
The righteous know and pray for the living, but sinners themselves do not know, Angels or demons tell them.

Ghevond Vardapet is not the Word of God.

 

[Theophilus Agapee]

Do you believe the Apostles were equal with God because God let them perform miracles? It is God who lets those in Heaven here us just as it was God who let the Apostles perform miracles. The Word of God tells us to pray for one another, those in Heaven are alive, not dead. They are alive and can hear us and they pray for us because God wills it.

Christ gave the Apostles and also other Christians in the first century the gift of healing and performing miracles, and those were sign gifts. But Christ did NOT give the Apostles and Christians Divine Attributes. Look what the Apostle Peter said:

"But when Peter saw {this,} he replied to the people, "Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, {the one} whom you delivered and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, but put to death the Prince of life, {the one} whom God raised from the dead, {a fact} to which we are witnesses. And on the basis of faith in His name, {it is} the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which {comes} through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all." (Acts 3:12-16 NASB1995)

Yes, the Word of God tells us to pray for one another when we are in the Church Militant, as prayer is striving in spiritual war:

"Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me" (Romans 15:30 NASB1995)

But when you are in the Church Triumphant, you are NO LONGER in spiritual war, but you have rested from all your works:

"And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, 'Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'' 'Yes,' says the Spirit, 'so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.'" (Revelation 14:13 NASB1995)

Leave the saints of the Church Triumphant to rest from their labors, and do not pull them into the battle again. They are alive for God, but dead for us. Or else, why would you need to pray to them? Just write them an email or call them on Zoom...

 

[Tigran1245]

Yes, Roman Catholics give Mary part of the Glory that belongs to Christ Alone, i.e. to God Alone.

Prayers to the Virgin Mary and the saints are part of the teaching of our Church. What exactly do you have complaints about Catholics?