What is true saving grace?

[FutureAndAHope]

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The way we see God influences our own lives, but also the lives of others. Our church has a food ministry that services the community's needs. I met a man a few weeks ago at the food bank, and when I asked him if he would like to go to church, he responded that he could not respond to a God who controls every aspect of life. I told him that I do not believe that God is a dictator who controls every aspect of our lives. Yet, how fervently do people present the false doctrine that God has controlled life to such an extent that he even forces many into damnation, through no evil of their own, but by His sovereign will or choice to destroy them.

I would like to suggest that such a doctrine is offensive to the world, but not only that, it is not the nature of God.

Reasons

The Early Church did not believe it. They believed that man was responsible for their own life, that they would be judged based upon how they individually responded to the ever-extended mercy of God.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107] states “ I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures” and “ he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice”.​

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] states: 1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness…... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165] wrote: they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​

But it is not just the Early Church that believed that God gives every person a chance of salvation, the bible makes it clear it is our choice, not God’s sovereign will that determines salvation or damnation. He opens our ears to instruction and commands that we turn from sin; the choice is then in our court. There is a choice we make.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

The bible makes it clear that the Father’s love, or saving grace, comes to those willing to obey God when they hear of His grace.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

​

We should be careful what we swallow.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

God is offering eternal life salvation to everyone, but it is not turning from sin. That God's requires to receive God's free gift of eternal life salvation, it is belief in Jesus.

That is God's grace, anything done outside of simple belief in Jesus, is not God's grace.

 

[fhansen]

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The way we see God influences our own lives, but also the lives of others. Our church has a food ministry that services the community's needs. I met a man a few weeks ago at the food bank, and when I asked him if he would like to go to church, he responded that he could not respond to a God who controls every aspect of life. I told him that I do not believe that God is a dictator who controls every aspect of our lives. Yet, how fervently do people present the false doctrine that God has controlled life to such an extent that he even forces many into damnation, through no evil of their own, but by His sovereign will or choice to destroy them.

I would like to suggest that such a doctrine is offensive to the world, but not only that, it is not the nature of God.

Reasons

The Early Church did not believe it. They believed that man was responsible for their own life, that they would be judged based upon how they individually responded to the ever-extended mercy of God.

Ignatius [A.D. 30-107] states “ I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures” and “ he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice”.​

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202] states: 1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness…... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.​

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165] wrote: they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...​

But it is not just the Early Church that believed that God gives every person a chance of salvation, the bible makes it clear it is our choice, not God’s sovereign will that determines salvation or damnation. He opens our ears to instruction and commands that we turn from sin; the choice is then in our court. There is a choice we make.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

The bible makes it clear that the Father’s love, or saving grace, comes to those willing to obey God when they hear of His grace.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

​

We should be careful what we swallow.

Yes, and this has been the continuous teaching of the church.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-
​

God is offering eternal life salvation to everyone, but it is not turning from sin. That God's requires to receive God's free gift of eternal life salvation, it is belief in Jesus.

That is God's grace, anything done outside of simple belief in Jesus, is not God's grace.

Salvation is by belief in Jesus, we are justified by Jesus' work on the cross, and by belief in it.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Rom 4:8 BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD SHALL NOT IMPUTE SIN."

We are called to a salvation not based on our human perfection. But to say that turning from sin is not a part of salvation misses the point. We are certainly called to depart from iniquity. Salvation is accompanied by the desire to obey God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Although we may fall into sin from time to time, a Christian's life should be marked by purity.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

1Jn 3:5-9 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[d taylor]

Salvation is by belief in Jesus, we are justified by Jesus' work on the cross, and by belief in it.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Rom 4:8 BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD SHALL NOT IMPUTE SIN."

We are called to a salvation not based on our human perfection. But to say that turning from sin is not a part of salvation misses the point. We are certainly called to depart from iniquity. Salvation is accompanied by the desire to obey God.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Although we may fall into sin from time to time, a Christian's life should be marked by purity.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

1Jn 3:5-9 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

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​

If your belief in it, is referring to Jesus death on the cross. That is not what gives people God's free gift of eternal Life salvation it is belief in Jesus. as Jesus is the eternal life giver, as Jesus is eternal life. The death on the cross took away the sin of the world and Jesus' resurrection proved He Jesus is who He said He is, The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

So people can believe Jesus is who He says He is and in turn believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-
​

If your belief in it, is referring to Jesus death on the cross. That is not what gives people God's free gift of eternal Life salvation it is belief in Jesus. as Jesus is the eternal life giver, as Jesus is eternal life. The death on the cross took away the sin of the world and Jesus' resurrection proved He Jesus is who He said He is, The Son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

So people can believe Jesus is who He says He is and in turn believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

What I believe by "belief in it", is that Jesus' death was like the sacrifices performed by Moses. His death made continual oneness with God possible. It was a sacrifice that forgives our sin. Our lifetime of sins covered by the cross. The sacrifice He made, gives us access to the Holy Spirit, and a relationship with God. His Holy Spirit motivates us to not live in uncleanness, and willful sin. Today we stand justified, forgiven, and free. But we are not to use that fact to sin, but rather serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.

 

[d taylor]

What I believe by "belief in it", is that Jesus' death was like the sacrifices performed by Moses. His death made continual oneness with God possible. It was a sacrifice that forgives our sin. Our lifetime of sins covered by the cross. The sacrifice He made, gives us access to the Holy Spirit, and a relationship with God. His Holy Spirit motivates us to not live in uncleanness, and willful sin. Today we stand justified, forgiven, and free. But we are not to use that fact to sin, but rather serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.

-
​

No belief in Jesus is what give a person access to The Holy spirit and a relationship with God. Because the believer becomes a child of God at the very moment they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

I see it more and more, belief in Jesus for eternal life is the dirty word no one wants to believe in and use.

 

[fhansen]

What I believe by "belief in it", is that Jesus' death was like the sacrifices performed by Moses. His death made continual oneness with God possible. It was a sacrifice that forgives our sin. Our lifetime of sins covered by the cross. The sacrifice He made, gives us access to the Holy Spirit, and a relationship with God. His Holy Spirit motivates us to not live in uncleanness, and willful sin. Today we stand justified, forgiven, and free. But we are not to use that fact to sin, but rather serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.

Yes, that oneness, that union, is our salvation. And just as we can turn to it, to Him, we can also turn back away, failing to nuture that relationship, failing to value and remain in that vital, life-giving connection to the Vine.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-
​

No belief in Jesus is what give a person access to The Holy spirit and a relationship with God. Because the believer becomes a child of God at the very moment they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

I see it more and more, belief in Jesus for eternal life is the dirty word no one wants to believe in and use.

You can't believe in the cross without believing in the person of Jesus. The two go hand in hand.

 

[d taylor]

You can't believe in the cross without believing in the person of Jesus. The two go hand in hand.

-

​

Every single believer, before Jesus died, did.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-

​

Every single believer, before Jesus died, did.

I am not sure I understand your doctrine. Could you explain in detail what you believe?

 

[d taylor]

I am not sure I understand your doctrine. Could you explain in detail what you believe?

-
​

it is the doctrine of The Gospel of John. That belief in Jesus (the person) gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
Believing that Jesus is who He says He is. The son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life and believing that this is how people become a born again child of God.

This is God's grace in relation to eternal life salvation, all other actions added to this is mans idea of God's grace.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes, that oneness, that union, is our salvation. And just as we can turn to it, to Him, we can also turn back away, failing to nuture that relationship, failing to value and remain in that vital, life-giving connection to the Vine.

Yes, we should never be complacent, we should be continually:

Eph 5:10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.

and walking in that. To me, that means obeying His word always, even if the "sin" feels right. Sure we may stumble, but we should not stay in it. We must do those things pleasing in His sight.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-
​

it is the doctrine of The Gospel of John. That belief in Jesus (the person) gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
Believing that Jesus is who He says He is. The son of God/The Messiah, the resurrection and the life and believing that this is how people become a born again child of God.

This is God's grace in relation to eternal life salvation, all other actions added to this is mans idea of God's grace.

I still don't "get" how this differs from what I said.

 

[d taylor]

I still don't "get" how this differs from what I said.

-​

So show me where you wrote belief in Jesus give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-​

So show me where you wrote belief in Jesus give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

What do you, define "belief in Jesus" as. I showed you that the cross offers us forgiveness of sin. So that we can have access to God. We believe in Jesus according to His word.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

-​

So show me where you wrote belief in Jesus give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.

If you are referring to the original post, I am not presenting the idea that we do 10 works to receive God's grace. I am suggesting, as Jesus did, that repentance, believing in who and what Jesus taught, is vital for salvation. For the most part, this is faith:

Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

But it does not exclude us from living Holy.

Mat 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[d taylor]

What do you, define "belief in Jesus" as. I showed you that the cross offers us forgiveness of sin. So that we can have access to God. We believe in Jesus according to His word.

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i have already wrote what believing in Jesus means, twice.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

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​

i have already wrote what believing in Jesus means, twice.

Could you tell me, in list form: What belief in Jesus "Is" and "Is not", so I can get some clarity?

 

[fhansen]

It’s important that we fully know what faith is: its role and purpose, so that we know what it means to believe in Christ. Faith is to experience reconciliation with God, and therefore to be connected to the Vine which, itself, is the right and just order of things for man. It’s to acknowledge God as God: His existence, first of all (Heb 11:6), and His goodness, mercy, and love- and supreme worthiness of our love. This is not to pass some sort of onetime divine litmus test regarding belief in a few truths about Jesus, and that’s it! Rather, it’s to come full circle back to God from the alienation from Him that all humanity experienced as a result of the Fall. This is so because everything Jesus said and did was an expression of who God is. To see Jesus is to see God, to know Jesus is to know God, to believe in, hope in, and love Jesus is to believe in, hope in, and love the true God. That's who Phillip should've recognized and known in John 14:9. So:

“Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” 1 Pet 1:21

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:3-34

Jesus came to reveal a God truly worth knowing, because Jesus is that God truly worth knowing. Justice, itself, calls us to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love God. That, when fully realized, is our righteousness, our perfection, our purpose, our telos, and our salvation. And only that vital connection, alone, with the grace intrinsic to it, can ensure that we do the things that end in eternal life, as Scripture makes clear (Rom 2:7, 5:17, 6:22, 8:12-14, Heb 12:14, Matt 19:17, Rev 21:6-8, 22:14-15, etc). To turn to Jesus is to turn to God, and away from the world and its offerings, "values", and sin. We only need remain in Him, picking up our cross and following Him daily. It's all grace: faith, along with hope and love, are gifts, but human choices as well, to embrace and act upon those gifts.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6