Limited atonement !

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

He did, however election is b4 they were born and did any good or evil Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

OK, I finally noticed you replied with the exact same response three times. It tells me all I need to know.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's about what the word foreknowledge (prognosis) always means when it refers to God. It always refers to his former decrees.

It is untennable, I think, to say that a word (which is literally derived from the combination of two words, "before" and "to know") when applied to God always refers to His knowledge of His decrees by which he has predetermined everything that will happen. However, as I said before, I do see how this point of view is helpful to the cause of reformed theology.

Strong's Greek #4268​

​

proginóskó: To foreknow, to know beforehand​

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Pronunciation: prog-ee-NO-sko
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: To foreknow, to know beforehand
Meaning: I know beforehand, foreknow.​

​

Word Origin: From πρό (pro, "before") and γινώσκω (ginóskó, "to know")​

 

[Servus]

Thats false, for they didnt personally exist, it was b4

What's "b4"? Do you mean "before"?

 

[David Lamb]

Correct, the one's that chose Him first.

Not so, according to the bible:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)

If God chose Christians before the foundation of the world, how could Christians choose Him first, as you wrote?

 

[David Lamb]

First we repent from unbelief to belief. This is the choice we make. Then we receive His Holy Spirit upon conversion due to our submission to Him. He then chooses us due to our choice. His foreknowledge does not change this fact. I do understand there are other views. I take this view.
Blessings

No, God's choice was made before the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:3-4)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Not so, according to the bible:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)

If God chose Christians before the foundation of the world, how could Christians choose Him first, as you wrote?

I know this is a highly contested ongoing debate but here goes....
Our Father has foreknowledge. Just as He knew Judas would betray Him and Peter would deny Him, He also knows who will be chosen to be with Him in eternity. No mystery here.

Be blessed.

 

[David Lamb]

I know this is a highly contested ongoing debate but here goes....
Our Father has foreknowledge. Just as He knew Judas would betray Him and Peter would deny Him, He also knows who will be chosen to be with Him in eternity. No mystery here.

Be blessed.

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, which was "If God chose Christians before the foundation of the world, how could Christians choose Him first, as you wrote?" If you say that God chose those who He foresaw would believe, then that takes the initiative in salvation from God, and leaves it to the sinner. Yet we are told:

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places]in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:4-10 NKJV)

Notice those words, "lest anyone should boast." The whole passage attributes salvation from beginning to end to God. No idea there that the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, has the ability to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that the sinners who exercise that ability who God chose to save.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, which was "If God chose Christians before the foundation of the world, how could Christians choose Him first, as you wrote?" If you say that God chose those who He foresaw would believe, then that takes the initiative in salvation from God, and leaves it to the sinner. Yet we are told:

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places]in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:4-10 NKJV)

Notice those words, "lest anyone should boast." The whole passage attributes salvation from beginning to end to God. No idea there that the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, has the ability to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that the sinners who exercise that ability who God chose to save.

I am sorry. I am not a Calvinist so no matter what I say it will not be enough to convince you of a non- Calvanist point of view.
Thanks for engaging!
Be blessed.

 

[David Lamb]

I am sorry. I am not a Calvinist so no matter what I say it will not be enough to convince you of a non- Calvanist point of view.
Thanks for engaging!
Be blessed.

And thank you for continuing to be so pleasant, even though we disagree on this matter. It makes such a difference. God bless you richly, too!

 

[Brightfame52]

Limited atonement is taught plainly in scripture !

Even though the natural man will attempt to explain away the truth of God as to who Christ specifically came to saved through His blood, yet the testimony of God is true and all men liars.

That Christs death is limited to only a certain segment of men is seen here , a clear statement limiting the recipients of His Death, the Angelic heavenly testimony here Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His People here is another way of saying His Elect/Sheep !

 

[Brightfame52]

What's "b4"? Do you mean "before"?

Yes

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

I'm just going to be honest, if calvinism was true then I would hate that. I would be disgusted by that. But thank God it's not true at all proven by the most famous verse of the whole Bible, John 3:16.

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm just going to be honest, if calvinism was true then I would hate that. I would be disgusted by that. But thank God it's not true at all proven by the most famous verse of the whole Bible, John 3:16.

Tulip is True Gospel Doctrine and you are disgusted with it, hate it even, not a good place to be in friend

 

[fhansen]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep. Jn 10

The doctrine of limited atonement limits the love of God, who is love and created nothing bad but only good and wants none to perish- 2 Pet 3:9. He knows our potential, who we were created to be, and sorrows at our failure to be it even as He gives us the grace to overcome.

 

[David Lamb]

I'm just going to be honest, if calvinism was true then I would hate that. I would be disgusted by that. But thank God it's not true at all proven by the most famous verse of the whole Bible, John 3:16.

You say that you would hate it if it were true. But if it is true, then it is God's truth. Are you really saying that you only love those truths of God which you find pleasant? As for John 3:16, Calvinists believe it too. It says (as you know):

“"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:16 NKJV)

But who believes in Him? Further on in John's gospel, we find Jesus saying to some of the Jews:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

 

[Brightfame52]

Another passage of scripture that evidences the range of the death of Christ Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Now Christ Sheep and His People are One and the same. Lets look at a Psalm for proof Ps 100:3

3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

And since scripture evidences that some of His Sheep are non jews/gentiles by Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[gentiles] I have, which are not of this[jewish] fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Then its spiritually logical that His People in Matt 1:21 are not all of the jewish fold but also from among the gentile fold. Thats what James meant here Acts 15:14

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

 

[Brightfame52]

The doctrine of limited atonement limits the love of God, who is love and created nothing bad but only good and wants none to perish- 2 Pet 3:9. He knows our potential, who we were created to be, and sorrows at our failure to be it even as He gives us the grace to overcome.

False teaching

 

[fhansen]

False teaching

Poor understanding of the gospel.

 

[Brightfame52]

Poor understanding of the gospel.

You understand it enough to reject it.

 

[fhansen]

You understand it enough to reject it.

You haven't yet come to truly understand it. But rather than trading jibes back-and-forth perhaps you could view something of my understanding here, in post #465:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-reason-why-folks-believe-they-can-lose-their-salvation.7784830/page-24