Which is more harmful to humanity... sin or stupidity?

[partinobodycular]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a theologian and pastor in Nazi Germany. He was executed for resistance on April 9, 1945 just days before the concentration camp that he was in was liberated by the Americans. He had spent a lot of his time in prison writing about what could make seemingly normal people do such heinous things.

His conclusion... humanity's most barbaric behavior isn't a result of sin, it's a result of stupidity. People choose social conformity over truth.

 

[Bradskii]

His conclusion... humanity's most barbaric behavior isn't a result of sin, it's a result of stupidity. People choose social conformity over truth.

There but for the grace of God of God...

 

[chevyontheriver]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a theologian and pastor in Nazi Germany. He was executed for resistance on April 9, 1945 just days before the POW camp that he was in was liberated by the Americans. He had spent a lot of his time in prison writing about what could make seemingly normal people do such heinous things.

His conclusion... humanity's most barbaric behavior isn't a result of sin, it's a result of stupidity. People choose social conformity over truth.

It's been said that sin makes you stupid. So ....

 

[Jo555]

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a theologian and pastor in Nazi Germany. He was executed for resistance on April 9, 1945 just days before the POW camp that he was in was liberated by the Americans. He had spent a lot of his time in prison writing about what could make seemingly normal people do such heinous things.

His conclusion... humanity's most barbaric behavior isn't a result of sin, it's a result of stupidity. People choose social conformity over truth.

Many lives have also suffered through the intellect.

As we are speaking of sin, which is a concept of religion, surely a religious discussion would be welcomed.

In the bible, it teaches anything apart from faith and God's love is sin. That pretty much sums up everything without Him.

On the video, this is a central teaching in scripture. You don't blindly follow the crowd. We are to hear from God for ourselves, and follow his leading.

The book of Jeremiah is a great one there for God condemns this, and it starts with the sin of following after our own selfish desires.

As I like to say, I see atheists (unsure if you are) have good things to share that often does line up, in part, with scripture, but not completely, therefore it is eroneous and shrouded in darkness.

And it is truly by grace through faith that we attain his life. It is nothing we can boast about. It is a gift from God.

So I realize this may be a foreign or rejected concept. Not sharing to convince anyone, but more to share the Christian POV.

But as I said, the video raises a good point as even scripture says we shouldn't blindly follow the crowd, including leaders. We do have his promise that if we are his and rely on Him we will hear his voice and follow.

I often tell other believers the same thing, how important it is to go to God ourselves and let Him confirm or reject what we hear from others. Unless it is a foundational stone, sometimes a direction is just meant for us and not another.

Thanks for sharing. Although I don't agree with the main premise, there are still valuable takeaways that do line up with scripture, but as Him as our Source and Truth.

 

[Jo555]

Many lives have also suffered through the intellect.

As we are speaking of sin, which is a concept of religion, surely a religious discussion would be welcomed.

In the bible, it teaches anything apart from faith and God's love is sin. That pretty much sums up everything without Him.

On the video, this is a central teaching in scripture. You don't blindly follow the crowd. We are to hear from God for ourselves, and follow his leading.

The book of Jeremiah is a great one there for God condemns this, and it starts with the sin of following after our own selfish desires.

As I like to say, I see atheists (unsure if you are) have good things to share that often does line up, in part, with scripture, but not completely, therefore it is eroneous and shrouded in darkness.

And it is truly by grace through faith that we attain his life. It is nothing we can boast about. It is a gift from God.

So I realize this may be a foreign or rejected concept. Not sharing to convince anyone, but more to share the Christian POV.

But as I said, the video raises a good point as even scripture says we shouldn't blindly follow the crowd, including leaders. We do have his promise that if we are his and rely on Him we will hear his voice and follow.

I often tell other believers the same thing, how important it is to go to God ourselves and let Him confirm or reject what we hear from others. Unless it is a foundational stone, sometimes a direction is just meant for us and not another.

Thanks for sharing. Although I don't agree with the main premise, there are still valuable takeaways that do line up with scripture, but as Him as our Source and Truth.

Why Stalin Tried to Stamp Out Religion in the Soviet Union | HISTORY

Joseph Stalin led a uniquely brutal campaign against religion and religious leaders.

www.history.com

 

[Jo555]

Why Stalin Tried to Stamp Out Religion in the Soviet Union | HISTORY

Joseph Stalin led a uniquely brutal campaign against religion and religious leaders.

www.history.com

Lastly, for now at the least, just a comparison summary from online.

Significantly more people died under Stalin's regime than during the Crusades; estimates place the death toll under Stalin at tens of millions, while the Crusades resulted in several million deaths across multiple campaigns over a longer period.

Key points:

• Scale of Stalin's regime:
  Stalin's Great Purge and forced collectivization led to widespread famine and executions, causing a vastly higher death toll compared to the Crusades.
  
  
• Duration of the Crusades:
  The Crusades were a series of wars spread over centuries, while Stalin's reign was concentrated in a few decades.
  
  
• Estimated death tolls:
  While exact numbers are debated, most historians agree that Stalin's regime resulted in tens of millions of deaths, while the Crusades caused several million deaths.

 

[partinobodycular]

There but for the grace of God

Which is probably why He chose me to start this thread. Supposedly people who prefer living in isolation are less inclined to follow the crowd, and therefore less susceptible to being stupid. And when it comes to preferring isolation... I'm your guy.

Unfortunately this is a 'Christian' forum which kinda put's it's adherents in the category of crowd followers from the git go. Sorry

Which makes for a rather interesting followup question.

Does modern technology make people less susceptible to following the crowd... or more susceptible to following the crowd?

Or does it simply make them more vocal when they do?

 

[partinobodycular]

It's been said that sin makes you stupid.

Care to explain how?

 

[Jo555]

Minus well bring Forest Gump into the equation, "Stupid is as stupid does."

Or was that his momma that said that?

I see the issue in blindly following the leader more as ignorance that crosses all the boundaries of differences, but as a Christian I see all wrongdoings as a product of sin.

And as I said, it is a topic very near and dear to my own heart. And, I believe all truth lies in God, so I point others to Him for that, even as we understand He can start that process by use of another.

I saw a documentary about Jim Jones. Some that escaped said there were others that did not feel comfortable about drinking the poisoned kool-aid, but they listened to Jones voice over those serious concerns. Very interesting and beneficial topic to explore.

 

[Jo555]

Minus well bring Forest Gump into the equation, "Stupid is as stupid does."

Or was that his momma that said that?

I see the issue in blindly following the leader more as ignorance that crosses all the boundaries of differences, but as a Christian I see all wrongdoings as a product of sin.

And as I said, it is a topic very near and dear to my own heart. And, I believe all truth lies in God, so I point others to Him for that, even as we understand He can start that process by use of another.

I saw a documentary about Jim Jones. Some that escaped said there were others that did not feel comfortable about drinking the poisoned kool-aid, but they listened to Jones voice over those serious concerns. Very interesting and beneficial topic to explore.

Don't blindly drink the kool-aid people. It may just be a deathtrap.

 

[Bradskii]

Which is probably why He chose me to start this thread. Supposedly people who prefer living in isolation are less inclined to follow the crowd, and therefore less susceptible to being stupid. And when it comes to preferring isolation... I'm your guy.

Unfortunately this is a 'Christian' forum which kinda put's it's adherents in the category of crowd followers from the git go. Sorry

Which makes for a rather interesting followup question.

Does modern technology make people less susceptible to following the crowd... or more susceptible to following the crowd?

Or does it simply make them more vocal when they do?

I think that it probably reinforces what we already think. I do my best to get as varied a view on matters as possible but we're all susceptible to bias.

 

[Jo555]

I think that it probably reinforces what we already think. I do my best to get as varied a view on matters as possible but we're all susceptible to bias.

Bias is as bias does ... Huh?

My thinking ... Yep, here we go. Don't all clap at once, it's deafening and I will get a big head.

We all have a belief system. There are things we will hold tightly because they have been proven true to us. Other things we may hold more loosely.

It is useful in considering where we received our source for truth. If we borrowed our truth from another human being, then that truth is worth reconsidering until it is our very own truth, or rejected as such.

From a Christian perspective, let us take belief in God. If we have come to believe solely on another's word and have not experienced genuine faith through God, then one's faith won't stand the test of time.

Comprende? But don't blindly drink the kool-aid, we should all search it out for ourselves.

Ok, enough with the standing ovation.
Blush.
I'll give you guys a break now, but don't cry ... In the words of the terminator,

"I'll be back."

 

[com7fy8]

Which is more harmful to humanity... sin or stupidity?

Jesus gives us light so we can see right and He makes us strong so we do not give in to what is wrong, but we love instead.

But sin of character makes a person dark and weak so the person can give in to what is wrong.

So, stupidity is being in the darkness of sin. But also it includes weakness so we can do what is not wise, even if we know better.

So, stupidity can be in total darkness of sin, or it can be knowing but weak enough in sin so we give in. Either way, it is because of sin.

So, I would say you can not separate the two.

The people who did the Nazi thing included different sorts of stupid people. There were all-out psychopaths who welcomed their opportunity to be so brutal and were proud of what they did. They even thought they were being smart.

On the other hand there were people who could help the Nazis but they were not wholehearted but weak enough to give in to what they did, in weakness fearing what could happen to them and their families if they didn't cooperate. But giving in to that weakness was stupid, because they were not looking to God and submitting to how He could have strengthened them and guided them.

So, their sin made them stupid, in any case > love-stupid.

And there was their conceit. The psychopaths felt superior to their victims so they could do what they did to them, I would say. And ones who went along could have been in conceit of valuing themselves more than the ones they somehow helped to kill and torture, somehow feeling better than the victims of the Nazis.

 

[Robban]

It's been said that sin makes you stupid. So ....

Also it has been said, "A person cannot sin unless a spirit of folly, stupidity or insanity enters into them."

 

[com7fy8]

There but for the grace of God of God...

Yes, there but for the grace of God it could have been me.

We have how certain Jews did what some number of Germans did. When Jesus was brought before the people, they said, "His blood be on us and on our children." (in Matthew 27:25)

Those were everyday Jewish moms and dads who became so able to reject their own Messiah and curse their own children with Jesus' blood. This shows how religious socially accepted people in sin can change so much, very quickly, I would say.

*Any* humans in sin are in such danger of falling for doing a thing like that. The Jews could do what they did, and Germans could do what they did.

It was not only being uninformed so they could go along with the crowd > a number of Jews had known who Jesus is; God proved Him to them!

But sin in their character made them weak and dark enough to give in.

And I would say many Germans knew they must love their neighbor as themselves; yet, they did what they did.

While ones were acting in the stupidity of their darkness of sin, others were in their stupidity of knowing but not being wise enough to depend on God to make them strong in His love. So, in either way of stupidity, sin was their basic problem of not sharing with God in His love which would give them light for how love would have them seeing things.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

 

[partinobodycular]

I think that it probably reinforces what we already think.

But isn't it in the act of reinforcing what we believe, that we inadvertently reinforce things that aren't true, and in doing so we advocate for a position from which we may later find it difficult to retreat, and so we become entrenched in a position, which although stupid, we fail to recognize as such, because to do so would result in cognitive dissonance.

So the question is, does the modern availability of information make it easier to avoid this trap, or does the availability of disinformation make it easier to fall into?

 

[partinobodycular]

But sin of character makes a person dark and weak so the person can give in to what is wrong.

So, stupidity is being in the darkness of sin. But also it includes weakness so we can do what is not wise, even if we know better.

So, stupidity can be in total darkness of sin, or it can be knowing but weak enough in sin so we give in. Either way, it is because of sin.

So, I would say you can not separate the two.

I appreciate your input, but I have to disagree. Stupidity isn't dependent upon being a sinner or a saint, it's dependent upon being so committed to the legitimacy of what one believes that it becomes absolutely impossible to consider the alternative. It's a psychological problem, not a spiritual one.

Now, one could consider this to be the sin of pride, but in that case almost all Christians are guilty. Simply ask them if it's possible that their God doesn't exist. They'll almost universally answer no. They'll do this because cognitive dissonance simply won't allow them to answer honestly.

 

[NBB]

IF there were no sin in the world, it would be a paradise of glory, even if people were dumb.

 

[NBB]

I appreciate your input, but I have to disagree. Stupidity isn't dependent upon being a sinner or a saint, it's dependent upon being so committed to the legitimacy of what one believes that it becomes absolutely impossible to consider the alternative. It's a psychological problem, not a spiritual one.

Now, one could consider this to be the sin of pride, but in that case almost all Christians are guilty. Simply ask them if it's possible that their God doesn't exist. They'll almost universally answer no. They'll do this because cognitive dissonance simply won't allow them to answer honestly.

You can experience God dude, as real as anything else. How can i say he doesn't exists, when he interacts with people.

 

[Bradskii]

But isn't it in the act of reinforcing what we believe, that we inadvertently reinforce things that aren't true, and in doing so we advocate for a position from which we may later find it difficult to retreat, and so we become entrenched in a position, which although stupid, we fail to recognize as such, because to do so would result in cognitive dissonance.

So the question is, does the modern availability of information make it easier to avoid this trap, or does the availability of disinformation make it easier to fall into?

The latter I think. I'd bet we'd all say that we're mostly immune to it, but that's not really the case. I have a tendency to read articles and buy books written by people whose opinion I already agree with. I will search out opposing views but that would represent maybe 10 - 15% of what I read.