Heaven Or Hell

[Clare73]

No scriptures talk about an immortal human spirit.

You might consider the subject matter of 2 Co 5.

What lives on after one's body dies?

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, all humans die physically now.

You had me worried there for a moment.
If you believe that, why did you say this:
fhansen said:

I believe that humans were created to exist forever, and that they can ultimately choose to exist apart from God and that this separation, itself, is the cause of all the pain and suffering already experienced in this world.​

What do you mean by that?

Yes, heaven is where God is, not necessarily a physical place or existing in time and space. Beyond my pay grade at this point.

Sorry to be confused, but I am a little lost.
If you believe heaven is a literal place where God dwells, and where persons can join God in heaven, why did you say this:
fhansen said:

This world is not hell, but certainly not heaven, either.​

I'm not sure if you believe in figurative, or literal things.
I'm confused if you aren't being specific on the subject. Sorry.

 

[CoreyD]

No. Soul sleep is not biblical for Christians. Generally only SDA and JW believe it.

No scripture.

Those who are righteous are in heaven awaiting for the resurrection.

No scripture.

Remember the transfiguration? What about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

No scripture.

They sound conscious to me!

No scripture.

Sorry, but this thread and subforum is not for making unsupported claims.

 

[CoreyD]

Soul sleep didn’t become popular among Christians until after the Reformation. Luther may have flirted with the idea, but he certainly didn’t believe in it!

Your quotations of Scripture are just proof text.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not here asking for your opinion Riley.

 

[fhansen]

What do you mean by that?

Well... as Christians we already believe that we can exist after death.

Sorry to be confused, but I am a little lost.
If you believe heaven is a literal place where God dwells, and where persons can join God in heaven, why did you say this:
fhansen said:
This world is not hell, but certainly not heaven, either.

Not sure why you'd be confused, since in the next sentence I already said I don't know exactly what that state will be like other than that it will include the presence of God. As far as whether this world is heaven or hell I think it should be obvious enough that it's neither. Either way, the afterlife is something we can only know about in part, we don't have full understanding at this point as to what it will be like.

 

[CoreyD]

Well... as Christians we already believe that we can exist after death.

I don't understand that to be a Christian belief. Quite the opposite. Genesis 3:4

Not sure why you'd be confused, since in the next sentence I already said I don't know exactly what that state will be like other than that it will include the presence of God. As far as whether this world is heaven or hell I think it should be obvious enough that it's neither. Either way, the afterlife is something we can only know about in part, we don't have full understanding at this point as to what it will be like.

Christians know.

 

[Clare73]

Then why did Jesus say that the dead believers would be raised on the last day?
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:39-40

The last day is the end of time and the end of the church age where, according to the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2) of Christ (Lk 10:16), there occurs
1) the resurrection of all mankind and
2) the catching up (harpazo) of the saints, both the then living and the resurrected, to meet the Lord in the air and to accompany him to earth (parousia) to
3) assist in the judgment of the world.

 

[fhansen]

I don't understand that to be a Christian belief. Quite the opposite. Genesis 3:4

And they died spiritually immediately after eating of the fruit, after their act of disobedience. That death is the alienation from God that we're all born into now and is the reason why we must be reborn. Later they would also die physically, as we all do, and yet still exist.

Christians know.

Nah-just talk.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Cor 2:9

 

[1Tonne]

The last day is the end of time and the end of the church age where, according to the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2) of Christ (Lk 10:16), there occurs
1) the resurrection of all mankind and
2) the catching up (harpazo) of the saints, both the then living and the resurrected, to meet the Lord in the air and to accompany him to earth (parousia) to
3) assist in the judgment of the world.

The end of the church age is not the last day. There is still a 1000 year millennial reign. Then Satan is set free, and then after this, the general resurrection of everyone. Believer and non-believer. Alive and dead.

Here is my view:

1. Church Age Ends – This is the period we are in now, where the gospel is being preached to the nations. It ends with the Second Coming of Christ.
2. Second Coming of Christ – Jesus returns, defeats the Antichrist, and establishes His 1,000-year reign on earth. During this time, only the martyrs (Revelation 20:4-6) are resurrected to reign with Him.
3. Satan Bound – Satan is restrained for this millennium, preventing him from deceiving the nations.
4. Satan’s Final Rebellion – At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released, deceives the nations again, and leads one last rebellion against Christ, which is quickly defeated.
5. Great White Throne Judgment (The last day) – All people are resurrected and judged. (including all believers and non-believers. Both alive and dead.) This is the “last day” when history as we know it ends.
6. New Heaven & New Earth – God creates a renewed cosmos, and believers enter into the eternal state.

So in short: No, the "last day" is not immediately after the Church Age. The 1,000-year reign comes first, then the final resurrection and judgment happen on the last day.

Do you believe that Christ will return with the martyrs and reign for 1000 years?

 

[Clare73]

The end of the church age is not the last day. There is still a 1000 year millennial reign.

That is based in prophetic riddles not clearly spoken (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation, where that particular interpretation is not in agreement with the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17, Co 6:2) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

Then Satan is set free, and then after this, the general resurrection of everyone. Believer and non-believer. Alive and dead.
Here is my view:

1. Church Age Ends – This is the period we are in now, where the gospel is being preached to the nations. It ends with the Second Coming of Christ.
2. Second Coming of Christ – Jesus returns, defeats the Antichrist, and establishes His 1,000-year reign on earth. During this time, only the martyrs (Revelation 20:4-6) are resurrected to reign with Him.
3. Satan Bound – Satan is restrained for this millennium, preventing him from deceiving the nations.
4. Satan’s Final Rebellion – At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released, deceives the nations again, and leads one last rebellion against Christ, which is quickly defeated.
5. Great White Throne Judgment (The last day) – All the dead are resurrected (including all believers who were not martyred) and judged. This is the “last day” when history as we know it ends.
6. New Heaven & New Earth – God creates a renewed cosmos, and believers enter into the eternal state.

So in short: No, the "last day" is not immediately after the Church Age. The 1,000-year reign comes first, then the final resurrection and judgment happen on the last day.

Do you believe that Christ will return with the martyrs and reign for 1000 years?

I do not find that in the teachings (1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Co 6:2) of Christ (Lk 10:16), with which it does not agree.

 

[RileyG]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not here asking for your opinion Riley.

It’s not an opinion. I already mentioned the scripture verses that don’t support soul sleep such as Luke 9:28-36, Matthew 17:1-38, Mark 9:2-13.

God bless

 

[RileyG]

No scripture.


No scripture.


No scripture.


No scripture.

Sorry, but this thread and subforum is not for making unsupported claims.

See previous post. Also, Philippians 1:23 .

Blessings

 

[1Tonne]

That is based in prophetic riddles not clearly spoken

The problems I have with your interpretations are that you turn it into a riddle when it does not need to be. Then you use excuses like "Prophetic Riddle" to excuse the pitfalls in your interpretation.

NOTE: We have spoken before about your riddles.
A quote from me about the last time we spoke about this stuff
"This is really sounding like you are using "NT Teaching", "Apostolic Teaching", "Dark Sayings" and "Prophetic riddles" to justify your wrong interpretation. Try to answer questions using scripture to back you up instead of using these words to justify your view. The bible should be able to explain itself with other scripture, but so far all I have seen from you is personal interpretation of dark sayings and some of it is in conflict with itself or you are adding to it"

So, when talking to me, please do not try to make yourself sound extra spiritual by using such wording when answering. Use the bible to back you up instead of slogans.

where that particular interpretation is not in agreement with the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17, Co 6:2) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

1 Thes 4:16
1 Thes 4:16 says that the dead in Christ will be raised first. This is the martyrs. They are raised and then they reign for 1000 years. No other believer is raised. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air on the last day. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
So, yes, my interpretation is in agreement with this teaching. (Rev 20:4-6, 1 Thes 4:16-17, John 6:39-40, John 11:24)

1 Cor 2:2
"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?"
If Jesus is the one who judges all people (the world) at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), then what does Paul mean when he says in 1 Corinthians 6:2 that "the saints will judge the world"?

Understanding 1 Corinthians 6:2 in Context
First, we need to understand what the word saint means. A saint is someone who believed in God, lived a holy and virtuous life, and has died in that faith. So, saints are dead believers. But, in a sense, we are all saints, even us who are alive. We have died to self so that Christ can rule in us. But in the context of 1 Corinthians 6:2, this means those who have died literally for their faith.
This was written in a time when many believers were being persecuted and executed for their faith. And by the time Paul writes 2 Corinthians, he even says that he feels like he has a death sentence on his head. So, he wrote 1 Corinthians 6:2 knowing that many of the believers were going to die. These people would become martyrs for their faith and be raised and reign with Christ for 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6). So, these saints would reign with Christ and judge the world as it says in Revelation 20:4-6 and in 1 Cor 6:2.

Your interpretation is not in agreement with what Jesus says in John 6:39 about the believers raised on the last day. You make a day that is not the last, into the last day.
Neither is your interpretation in agreement with Rev 20:4-6 where only the martyrs are raised.

 

[CoreyD]

And they died spiritually immediately after eating of the fruit, after their act of disobedience. That death is the alienation from God that we're all born into now and is the reason why we must be reborn. Later they would also die physically, as we all do, and yet still exist.

The Devil claimed they would not die.
Now you are back to figurative. You agreed humans die physically. Adam died physically.
The Devil lied.
So do his ministers. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Nah-just talk.
“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.” 1 Cor 2:9

Read the verse again, with the surrounding verses. 1 Corinthians 2:6-10
Those words exactly refer to the ignorant. The ones you called Christians a moment ago.

 

[fhansen]

The Devil claimed they would not die.
Now you are back to figurative. You agreed humans die physically. Adam died physically.
The Devil lied.
So do his ministers. 2 Corinthians 11:15

There's nothimg figurartive about spiritual death. Man was meant to be connected to the VIne and is lost, sick, disordered, in a state of injustice, dead, if apart from Him. And this, again, is why a living soul must be reborn.

Read the verse again, with the surrounding verses. 1 Corinthians 2:6-10
Those words exactly refer to the ignorant. The ones you called Christians a moment ago.

Ok, so describe heaven for me.

 

[CoreyD]

It’s not an opinion. I already mentioned the scripture verses that don’t support soul sleep such as Luke 9:28-36, Matthew 17:1-38, Mark 9:2-13.

God bless

Thanks for actually providing scripture.

Evidently you imagine that Moses and Elijah are living, though the Bible says otherwise.
Why not look at the references used to show that the dead sleep in the dust until awakened, and demonstrate those to be saying otherwise.

Luke 9:28-36 - the transfiguration - is a vision, in which the disciples... like yourself, imagine what they was seeing was real. Matthew 17:9

When Moses died, where do you imagine he went?
Did he go to heaven, or did he go to dust?
What scriptures would you use to answer?

The vision does not tell us.
You only imagine, like Peter, that what's being played out there is an occurring event. Luke 9:33
Jesus of course, understood Peter's mistake. Will he understand the "mistakes" of most here?

 

[CoreyD]

See previous post. Also, Philippians 1:23 .

Blessings

I have a desire to live in paradise.
I still have to wait... like those who die, and await resurrection.
I'm sure there are children who want to get up this weekend and go to the park. They aren't going to immediately transport to the park.

 

[Lukaris]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

It says in John 5:22-30 that the good are saved & the evil unsaved. It would seem that those saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) are unaffected by what scripture says is the 2nd death ( Revelation 20:6). The rest are judged by their works & those not found in the book of life are condemned ( Revelation 20:11-15); some were found & others not. What else could this mean unless we want to play head games about it? God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy ( Romans 9:14-18).

The prophet Micah said God showed us what is good ( Micah 6:8) to be just & merciful. Since we are not, we know God is.

 

[CoreyD]

There's nothimg figurartive about spiritual death. Man was meant to be connected to the VIne and is lost, sick, disordered, in a state of injustice, dead, if apart from Him. And this, again, is why a living soul must be reborn.

If one uses death to describe separation from God, it is figurative use of the word dead, or death.

Ok, so describe heaven for me.

What the Bible tells us about heaven, is not a description.

Jesus said, "He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world."

Where Jesus came from, and where his father lives, with all his spirit sons, is an actual world... different to ours.
The world is the totality of entities, the whole of reality, or everything that exists.

It's where a family resides - a family of spirit beings, sons of God, called angels, who see the father and dwell in his presence.
Hebrews 12:18-24
...you have not come to the mountain that may be touched... But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels...

It is an actual abode... a home with many dwellings, just as we have homes on our home world.
In My Father's house there are many mansions. And if not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? John 14:2

It's not like what the churches paint in the minds of their flock - streets of gold.
Neither do everyone go there, once they do God's will.

Those chosen to go into this realm, and live as citizens Philippians 3:20, have a role to fulfill - that of being kings, priests and judges, during Christ's millennial rule. Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:6

They will rule over our home - the earth, which God gave to mankind Psalm 115:16, to live on Isaiah 45:18, and they will make the earth like the garden of God, as at the beginning... only, it will be the entire earth that becomes a garden, for the righteous. Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 65:17-25

 

[RileyG]

I have a desire to live in paradise.
I still have to wait... like those who die, and await resurrection.
I'm sure there are children who want to get up this weekend and go to the park. They aren't going to immediately transport to the park.

If you’re referring to the resurrection at the end of time, then yes. Those who died aren’t unconscious per scripture cited and what the early Church taught.