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[Aaron112]

MSG
Don’t put your life in the hands of experts who know nothing of life, of salvation life. Mere humans don’t have what it takes; when they die, their projects die with them. Instead, get help from the God of Jacob, put your hope in God and know real blessing! God made sky and soil, sea and all the fish in it. He always does what he says— he defends the wronged, he feeds the hungry. God frees prisoners— he gives sight to the blind, he lifts up the fallen. God loves good people, protects strangers, takes the side of orphans and widows, but makes short work of the wicked.

I am opposed to any group that is anti-God.
He said to pray our our enemies, not kill them.

 

[Aaron112]

Here are some relevant Bible passages:

• Psalm 91:14-16:
  "Because he loves me," says the Lord, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. He will call on me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. I will satisfy him with a long life and show him my salvation."
  
  
• Exodus 14:14:
  "The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."
  
  
• Isaiah 41:10:
  "Fear not, for I am with you; be not discouraged, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous hand."
  
  
• Jeremiah 1:19:
  "They will fight against you but will not overcome you, for I am with you and will rescue you,” declares the Lord."
  
  
• Isaiah 49:25:
  "For thus says the LORD: “Yes, captives of the mighty will be taken and the prey of the tyrant will be freed. For I will oppose your adversary. I will save your children."
  
  
• Psalm 62:5-8:
  "He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defense; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory; the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us."
  
  
• Psalm 121:7-8:
  "The LORD will protect you and keep you safe from all dangers. The LORD will protect you now and always wherever you go."

 

[Hoping2]

We are told in scripture that Kings have authority to kill those who disobey laws. Christians who kill for justifiable reasons (let's say an invasion or assault) aren't at fault because they killed their enemy in their own self defense.

I am not of the world's kings, so haven't God's authority to kill anyone.
My defense is praying to God for His protection from the world.
He is good at that !

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am not of the world's kings, so haven't God's authority to kill anyone.
My defense is praying to God for His protection from the world.
He is good at that !

Which relies on others to do something you consider immoral. That is defend you.

 

[Hoping2]

Which relies on others to do something you consider immoral. That is defend you.

God has used the wicked to slay other wicked folks many times.
What the Romans did to Jerusalem, comes to mind.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

God has used the wicked to slay other wicked folks many times.
What the Romans did to Jerusalem, comes to mind.

I just can't take this seriously. If you believe it is evil for someone else to defend you, then you have an obligation to deny their assistance.

 

[Hoping2]

I just can't take this seriously. If you believe it is evil for someone else to defend you, then you have an obligation to deny their assistance.

My assistance comes from God, not men.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

My assistance comes from God, not men.

I don't think there's any point in rehashing this. If you live in a world where you are not dependent on other people for various needs, wants and desires then I suppose you can go live in that world. Have a good day.

 

[Hoping2]

I don't think there's any point in rehashing this. If you live in a world where you are not dependent on other people for various needs, wants and desires then I suppose you can go live in that world. Have a good day.

Are the sparrows dependent on anyone ?
They seem to be thriving !

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Are the sparrows dependent on anyone ?
They seem to be thriving !

I do not believe a reasonable discussion can be had between you and me. If you live utterly alone, dependent on nothing that was created except for whatever God directly gives to you via miracles, then I wish you a good day.

 

[Avaree]

Well we render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. There is a long history of war/battles in the OT. There is nothing in Scripture one way or the other when it comes to drafts. I think it’s an individual’s choice how to grapple with it. Neither being right or wrong. This seems a more fitting topic for Christian Ethics imo.

Back in Biblical time kings had the power to make anyone they chose serve in their army for as long as they needed them. Doesn't this mean that the kings of Israel probably also made people serve in the army when they needed more soldiers? Perhaps when we read "muster an army" (in some bible translations) it could imply a draft of sorts?

 

[Hoping2]

I do not believe a reasonable discussion can be had between you and me. If you live utterly alone, dependent on nothing that was created except for whatever God directly gives to you via miracles, then I wish you a good day.

I will continue to depend on God.
You can continue to depend on man, and self.
Don't expect any miracles though.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I will continue to depend on God.
You can continue to depend on man, and self.
Don't expect any miracles though.

It's not necessarily a dichotomy Hoping and this is my frustration with your perspective. You seem to think that in acknowledging the participation of others in our lives for certain things, like being defended against an aggressor, that we somehow deny God in all of this. Your position comes across as incredibly craven and self righteous in that you acknowledge the need for protection, that others protect you, but then you condemn them as wicked for having the gall to actually defend you because they might harm someone else.

 

[Hoping2]

It's not necessarily a dichotomy Hoping and this is my frustration with your perspective. You seem to think that in acknowledging the participation of others in our lives for certain things, like being defended against an aggressor, that we somehow deny God in all of this. Your position comes across as incredibly craven and self righteous in that you acknowledge the need for protection, that others protect you, but then you condemn them as wicked for having the gall to actually defend you because they might harm someone else.

Nobody ever killed someone else to protect me: thanks be to God.
God already had it covered.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Nobody ever killed someone else to protect me: thanks be to God.
God already had it covered.

On a broad societal level, yes, people were killed to protect you. Laws were enforced which require ultimately the barrel of a gun to enforce and you rely on the order of said society in order to have some sense of stability. So when you say God has it covered, what do you mean? Is it in a general vague sense or is that God produces miracles to defend you from harm each time they might happen? I think I remember in our last discussion you implied that if a Christian gets attacked then they probably weren't a true Christian because they were attacked and didn't rely on God. Do I have that right?

 

[RDKirk]

So you'd like to abolish all mass human organization of people's? Do you consider the family as a unit of governance as being against God inherently?

Will families exist in heaven?

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." -- Matthew 22

"But he replied to the man who told him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.’" -- Matthew 12

Earthly family structure, like earthly governments, are a consequence of the Fall, a make-do, an ad hoc, until God remakes all things back to His original intent. In that way, yes, they are "against God" because they are not God's perfect intent.

 

[RDKirk]

How presumptive and immoral to rely on others to do what you consider dirty work.

Yet, that is the basis of Romans 13.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Will families exist in heaven?

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." -- Matthew 22

"But he replied to the man who told him, ‘Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?’ And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.’" -- Matthew 12

Earthly family structure, like earthly governments, are a consequence of the Fall, a make-do, an ad hoc, until God remakes all things back to His original intent. In that way, yes, they are "against God" because they are not God's perfect intent.

If one has this view then all human organization and natural relations ought to be shunned in favour of a pure Godly life. Yet it seems to me that marriage as institution and family is something that matters to God. So do the wider relations we find ourselves in, extended family, town, city, state, country.

Yet, that is the basis of Romans 13.

Does Paul call what the government does dirty work though? Does he say what the government does in order to deliver justice is wrong in and of itself? I don't see that in Romans 13.

 

[RDKirk]

If one has this view then all human organization and natural relations ought to be shunned in favour of a pure Godly life. Yet it seems to me that marriage as institution and family is something that matters to God. So do the wider relations we find ourselves in, extended family, town, city, state, country.

Does Paul call what the government does dirty work though? Does he say what the government does in order to deliver justice is wrong in and of itself? I don't see that in Romans 13.

Paul says the king is authorized to use the sword, but Jesus said, "All who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

This is not a contradiction: Earthly governments exist by the power of violence, and fall by the power of violence.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Paul says the king is authorized to use the sword, but Jesus said, "All who live by the sword shall die by the sword."

This is not a contradiction: Earthly governments exist by the power of violence, and fall by the power of violence.

What Christ said is not a moral condemnation of having a sword, but an aspect of reality. If you play the game of violence then you are subject to the game of violence. Unfortunately violence cannot be avoided in any society, lest complete anarchy take place and only those who would use violence for evil purposes are able to exercise it. If a man uses violence in order to save his friend, is he condemned because he used violence?