Null

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Any human governing body soon fails to follow the governance of God, as self interest soon returns even if only in concern over itself and its existence. God tells us time and time again that He will provide what is needed but man likes to add our own insurance defeating the purpose

So you'd like to abolish all mass human organization of people's? Do you consider the family as a unit of governance as being against God inherently?

 

[timothyu]

So you'd like to abolish all mass human organization of people's? Do you consider the family as a unit of governance as being against God inherently?

Why not? God will.
A true family operates on the principle of love. Families under the guise of institutions reject love for power and authourity.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Why not? God will.
A true family operates on the principle of love. Families under the guise of institutions reject love for power and authourity.

So my original claim is correct in that you would seek for every Christian to live like a monastic? Not even a monastic but an ascetic where all bonds of community are dissolved?

Also it's not true that a family only operates on love. Power is required to keep a family in order, the power of parents over their children.

 

[timothyu]

So my original claim is correct in that you would seek for every Christian to live like a monastic?

No and I never said that. You don't speak for me. I said live as the original Way did, serving each other and all as a community of like minded doers of the two commandments. There is no need for man to take everything good that comes along and build an empire for themselves out of it

Power is required to keep a family in order, the power of parents over their children.

If properly done, then with love only. Not the excuse we are being dominant for your own good. There is a difference between teaching understanding and forced compliance. Mankind seems to favour the latter.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No and I never said that. You don't speak for me. I said live as the original Way did, serving each other and all as a community of like minded doers of the two commandments. There is no need for man to take everything good that comes along and build an empire for themselves out of it

Except you don't. The early Christians had community and government of said communities.

If properly done, then with love only. Not the excuse we are being dominant for your own good. There is a difference between teaching understanding and forced compliance. Mankind seems to favour the latter.

With love only looking like what? Just words and encouragement without discipline? Do you know what children are like?

 

[John G.]

Should a Christian support or oppose conscription? Why?

If it is necessary for the defence of one's homeland, I see no reason why Christians should oppose conscription.
When John the Baptist was asked by soldiers "what shall we do?", he told them to be content with their pay. He didn't tell them to quit the army.

Having said that, I must admit that I am opposed to Christians joining the army in this day and age as the West has strayed from God and uses the military for purposes other than defence.

 

[timothyu]

The early Christians had community and government of said communities.

No similarity to the Gentile Christianity

Just words and encouragement without discipline? Do you know what children are like?

Sure.. I raised six and was one myself

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No similarity to the Gentile Christianity

? I'm confused as to what this statement means. You've spoken against the idea of government (meaning an organized community structure) and I pointed out the early Church essentially functioned as an organized community that excercised power.

Sure.. I raised six and was one myself

And you never disciplined any of your children? You never punished them or excercised power over your children?

 

[timothyu]

You never punished them or excercised power over your children?

Not in the way the establishment churches did/do but this is about conscription. Come to think of it those established churches liked war too. Human thinking.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Not in the way the establishment churches did/do but this is about conscription

It is but the issue goes deeper based on your original response to me in which you seemed to undercut the notion of Christians participating in war or government. You seem to advocate for something wholly beyond earthly considerations, going as far as to suggest love is all that is needed and we should never have or excercise power.

I reject the pacifist notion some Christians seemed to have adopted as almost as bad as the idea that conscription is moral because it ignores the reality of power existing and being given to Christians not only in government but in life in general. This is why I'm confused by your perspective because it's inconsistent and cannot be applied by any community without the community dissolving itself.

 

[timothyu]

going as far as to suggest love is all that is needed and we should never have or exercise power.

That is exactly what God commanded.. His authourity, not ours and love all as self

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That is exactly what God commanded.. His authourity, not ours and love all as self

So Christians are utterly unable to impose order on any aspect of life then and are utterly subject to whatever befalls them. I notice you also didn't answer my question directly about your children, probably because it is obvious as a father you did discipline your children when they needed it.

 

[timothyu]

So Christians are utterly unable to impose order on any aspect of life then and are utterly subject to whatever befalls them.

Think of us as the Red Cross that serves either side.

s a father you did discipline your children when they needed it.

Never excommunicated any and didn't even have to burn any at the stake.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Think of us as the Red Cross that serves either side.

Never excommunicated any and didn't even have to burn any at the stake.

This conversation clearly cannot go on as you are unable to discuss further. God bless Tim.

 

[Hoping2]

I would question this in terms of a general calling by God to be a soldier. It seems to me there have been numerous times in history in which the Church benefitted from the presence of Christian soldiers who were willing to use their martial might to combat the forces which might seek to destroy Christians. It is not obvious that Christians are not called to be soldiers or serve in a military force. Unless you mean only mean that there is nowhere in the Gospel where one is called to be a soldier in military service, which is true. Though Christ never tells the soldiers who do serve in the Roman army to abandon their position.

I will depend on God, and not on men, for my safety.

 

[Hoping2]

Can you define government? Because wouldn't a government be merely an organizing mechanism of a large community? Are opposed to the organization of communities?

I am opposed to any group that is anti-God.
He said to pray our our enemies, not kill them.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I will depend on God, and not on men, for my safety.

We've already this discussion hoping. God seems to use methods aside from direct intervention when it comes to defending his people. Historically direct divine intervention has not been primary way God has protected Christians. He seems to require some action on our part.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am opposed to any group that is anti-God.
He said to pray our our enemies, not kill them.

We are told in scripture that Kings have authority to kill those who disobey laws. Christians who kill for justifiable reasons (let's say an invasion or assault) aren't at fault because they killed their enemy in their own self defense.

 

[Hoping2]

We've already this discussion hoping. God seems to use methods aside from direct intervention when it comes to defending his people. Historically direct divine intervention has not been primary way God has protected Christians. He seems to require some action on our part.

God can, and probably will continue to, use the disobedient to protect the believers.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

God can, and probably will continue to, use the disobedient to protect the believers.

How presumptive and immoral to rely on others to do what you consider dirty work.