Trump: Ukraine “Never Should Have Started War” with Russia

[ozso]

Of course Trump supporters agree with him. Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?

I keep hearing they're turning against him.

 

[7thKeeper]

No. Let Europe earn it's place at the table and deal with European issues to free up the United States to focus on Asia. I feel like I am getting mixed signals from the left. Wasn't it the left that vilified Bush for dragging the United States into these forever wars? So why now all of a sudden, it is the left who are shrilling because Trump doesn't want to drag the country into another proxi forever war?

But you said let NATO deal with it. USA is part of NATO.

 

[7thKeeper]

At this point, nobody in europe believes the USA will come and help us when Russia attacks. We're on our own, and you can't be trusted, even if it happens during the reign of a democratic party president, because they'll just use this precedent as an excuse.

Someone put it as "Europe can't trust the USA because of it's schizophrenic 4 year election cycle."

 

[Pommer]

Okay. Then let's just let NATO deal with Russia as they were intended and let the United States focus on China.

Russia hasn’t attacked a NATO signatory, as such, it’s powerless to move against The Motherland.

Perhaps Trump can work out a deal to take half of Taiwan's computer chips in return for weapons.

This what’s-in-it-for-US? diplomacy is different from a protection racket how?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

But you said let NATO deal with it. USA is part of NATO.

Yes. USA is PART of NATO. But Europe forgot that they are also a part of NATO. Time for them to grow up and stop sucking off the American teat while simultaneously bragging about their free entitlement. I don't know how else to break it down. The US does not have unlimited resources and cannot carry the weight of NATO any longer. So Europe is going to have to make a choice, either step up to the plate and do their fair share, or they will lose the US as a member which will force them to step up. It is almost as if Europe has become that 35 year old snotty and entitled millennial man-child that is still living with their parents (the US) and throwing a temper tantrum because the parents had the audacity to say, "You need to start paying rent or get out of my house."

 

[7thKeeper]

How much is it worth to deplete our weapons stock piles and leaving the Pacific vulnerable to China? I think 400% is fair.

Except you aren't. You and Europe have mainly been sending aging stock and equipment to Ukraine and replacing it simultaneously with newer stuff for themselves. You've only gotten rid of stuff that would have expired or was aging and merely accelerated (if even that) it's replacement that would have come anyway. It's only recently now that Ukraine is getting some straight from production stuff. I'm most curious currently about seeing how the Steel Eagle (regular and ER variant) perform as the thought of a flying claymore is actually pretty damn scary.
But to argue that you're scared that you're depleting your stocks and being vulnerable in your east is just pure crock. Especially using that as a justification for the horrid "deal" Trump attempted to push on Ukraine... Just sad on your part.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Except you aren't.

Yes, we are.

US, NATO weapons stockpile 'dangerously low': USAF General - Breaking Defense

“So we don’t have nearly what we had at the heart of the Cold War. Now you add that we’re giving a lot of munitions away to the Ukrainians — which I think is exactly what we need to do — but now we’re getting dangerously low and sometimes, in some cases even too low that we don’t have enough,”...

breakingdefense.com

 

[7thKeeper]

Yes. USA is PART of NATO. But Europe forgot that they are also a part of NATO. Time for them to grow up and stop sucking off the American teat while simultaneously bragging about their free entitlement. I don't know how else to break it down. The US does not have unlimited resources and cannot carry the weight of NATO any longer. So Europe is going to have to make a choice, either step up to the plate and do their fair share, or they will lose the US as a member which will force them to step up. It is almost as if Europe has become that 35 year old snotty and entitled millennial man-child that is still living with their parents (the US) and throwing a temper tantrum because the parents had the audacity to say, "You need to start paying rent or get out of my house."

Except in this case, they are paying it and you just don't like it. Like has been posted, what's been donated to Ukraine is nearly the same and if we take the future into consideration, Europe is currently donating more as an absolute sum and as percentage of their GDP for several countries.
The percentage spending has already been discussed as per NATO aim, so this sucking on teat is just sounding like a justification for acting like a donkey adjacent animal and trying to do what amounts to racketeering and very literally screwing a nations economic prospects to satisfy someone's misled ego.

 

[Pommer]

Of course Trump supporters agree with him. Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?

Everyone is free to choose to support Trump, though there are times when it may appear that some don’t really have a choice.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Someone put it as "Europe can't trust the USA because of it's schizophrenic 4 year election cycle."

More of a reason for them to stop being utterly dependent on the US for their defense.

 

[7thKeeper]

Yes, we are.

US, NATO weapons stockpile 'dangerously low': USAF General - Breaking Defense

“So we don’t have nearly what we had at the heart of the Cold War. Now you add that we’re giving a lot of munitions away to the Ukrainians — which I think is exactly what we need to do — but now we’re getting dangerously low and sometimes, in some cases even too low that we don’t have enough,”...

breakingdefense.com

Munitions is an issue, but the donations have been of stock that's aging and would need to be destroyed otherwise. The replenishment of those is something we would need to do either way, even without Ukraine. The war there just proved that everyone had been too lax in this regard. But you haven't sent Ukraine fighters, which is one thing he talked about. It's extremely simplistic of you to try to blame Ukraine for all of this and then make outrageous demands based on it and that is what Trumps demand was.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Except in this case, they are paying it and you just don't like it. Like has been posted, what's been donated to Ukraine is nearly the same and if we take the future into consideration, Europe is currently donating more as an absolute sum and as percentage of their GDP for several countries.
The percentage spending has already been discussed as per NATO aim, so this sucking on teat is just sounding like a justification for acting like a donkey adjacent animal and trying to do what amounts to racketeering and very literally screwing a nations economic prospects to satisfy someone's misled ego.

Be honest. All nonsense aside. What would NATO be without the US?

 

[7thKeeper]

More of a reason for them to stop being utterly dependent on the US for their defense.

Sorry, we aren't dependent on you for our defense. Makes a simplistic arguement and a nice catchphrase but reality is a bit more varied than that, just bunching everything together. But agreed partially, Europe should work on it's defense more. I don't think you've just thought it through what it means for the USA if it's done this way.

 

[Pommer]

Be honest. All nonsense aside. What would NATO be without the US?

Let’s just wait two weeks and all find out together, eh?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Munitions is an issue,

Okay. Now I am confused because you are saying that weapons shortages is not an issue while simultaneously saying it is an issue, but...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Sorry, we aren't dependent on you for our defense.

Yes, you are. Tell me again why no European NATO member has tried to negotiate peace? Can you name the last war that Europeans won that did not involve the US coming to bail them out?

 

[7thKeeper]

Yes, you are. Tell me again why no European NATO member has tried to negotiate peace? Can you name the last war that Europeans won that did not involve the US coming to bail them out?

No, Finland is not. We're quite capable of defending ourselves and plan to do so with or without NATO membership. And why no negotiation for peace by Europans? Because Ukraine hasn't wanted one and they are the ones to negotiate it. That's the thing, it has to be a deal that Ukraine will accept, not something a third party dictates to them. Europe knows this and that Putin isn't currently willing to do so, but some Americans apparently don't.

 

[Nithavela]

Someone put it as "Europe can't trust the USA because of it's schizophrenic 4 year election cycle."

I don't even trust the USA during the cycles with the "nice guy" anymore. Any relationship going forward has to be purely transactional and on the basis that it might get reneged at any moment.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

And why no negotiation for peace by Europans? Because Ukraine hasn't wanted one and they are the ones to negotiate it.

I guess that sounds like an Ukranian problem to me. So let Ukraine worry about Ukraine. Frankly, I really don't care what Russia does with Ukraine. Not our circus, not our monkeys. No Europe may be more concerned because it is happening in their backyard.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

what's been donated to Ukraine is nearly the same

What all of Europe has provided is "nearly" the same as what the US provided? Laughable. Listen, I am not going to begrudge Europe from wasting billions of dollars in a proxi-war, but it is not in US interest. So I support Trump in walking away from it.