Trump: Ukraine “Never Should Have Started War” with Russia

[linux.poet]

I think Biden should have minded his own business and not get involved. As Christians we believe that we are to allow God and His angels to fight the war for us.

How do you square this with Romans 13 and Ephesians 6? We are called in Ephesians 6 to spiritual warfare against various forms of evil. If our country goes to war, we are called to submit to the governing authorities and that includes going to war if our authorities deem it appropriate for us to do so.

 

[7thKeeper]

Ukraine, as far as I’m aware, isn’t a part of NATO and we are under no obligation to defend Ukraine as part of our membership in that alliance.

I don't think that was the point that was being made there, but that NATO and UN should handle this, somehow missing the fact that USA is part of both.

 

[7thKeeper]

That is false.

It is called interest.

No, that is called racketeering and extortion. You first give the aid and merely after you've given it, suddenly claim that the other person owes you something. The fact that you're defending behaviour like this is just sad, though I might want to use some stronger words. Like has been said, the "deal" was worse than what was forced upon Germany after WW1 and that devastated their economy back then. Interest my behind.

 

[7thKeeper]

What is the alternative? Another endless war where we burn billions of dollars and gain nothing in return? Trump gave Zelensky an offer, "give us half of your stuff and will will send you whatever you want."

No, the deal would have destroyed whatever postwar future Ukraine had. The deal was so incredibly one sided and also contained no security guarantees for Ukraine.

Zelensky rejected it. Now, ask yourself why the negotiations are only between Trump and Putin? Why not with Zelensky? Why not with any NATO member?

Because they don't want anyone else listening. You're trying to claim it's because Trump is "strong", but he already began to concede before the talks even began, showing how weak he was. Combined with the lies coming out from the administration as well, this only seems like Ukraine is getting screwed.

The answer is simple, because Ukrain and NATO is so weak and ineffective that they only deserve to be at the kiddy table while the grown ups talk. Putin is only threatened by NATO because the United States is its dominant member...period. Putin is willing to negotiate with Trump because Putin respects and fears Trump, not because they are buddies.

Oh please get off your high horse. You can try to pretend about being "grown ups" but the temper tantrums being shown along with the straight up lies says otherwise.

The Kiel Institute for the World Economy, a Germany-based nonprofit that tracks military, financial and humanitarian support to Ukraine, says European nations —specifically the EU, United Kingdom, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland — have allocated about $140 billion in total in aid for Ukraine, while the United States has allocated about $120 billion in total aid. Total aid includes military, humanitarian and financial aid to Ukraine.

The U.S. has provided about $2 billion more than Europe in military aid for Ukraine, but “European donors have been the main source of [total] aid to Ukraine since 2022, especially when it comes to financial and humanitarian aid,” the institute said in its latest report last week.

Well what do you know... Trumps claims about those numbers are lies. Who would have thought? Well perhaps everyone who'd paid attention. And if we account aid already allocated to Ukraine but not yet delivered (as it's money committed to them over the following years), the USA is lagging far behind.

 

[linux.poet]

I don't think that was the point that was being made there, but that NATO and UN should handle this, somehow missing the fact that USA is part of both.

My point is that NATO is not obligated to act on behalf of Ukraine. The UN also isn’t really obliged to act either unless Russia commits a war crime.

Frankly, nobody is really obliged to do anything, countries lose wars all the time, too bad, how sad, you lost. Now is this war pretty unjust and the loss unfair? Yes. But we live in a fallen world and unfortunately we need to accept the ugly reality of that eventually.

 

[Bradskii]

Now is this war pretty unjust and the loss unfair? Yes. But we live in a fallen world and unfortunately we need to accept the ugly reality of that eventually.

No. No, you don't. You most definitely don't. By anything that's honest and just and moral you MUST not stand by and do nothing.

 

[linux.poet]

No. No, you don't. You most definitely don't. By anything that's honest and just and moral you MUST not stand by and do nothing.

I’m a finite human being with finite resources at my disposal. I’m a 31 year old woman who lives thousands of miles away and doesn’t even have the financial resources to travel as far as Ukraine. And what is one woman to do? I would just get killed.

The best that could come from me is a cheap denouncing of the injustice of the war on social media and ruining my mental health by burning with rage against Putin, the latter of which I will not do. Sometimes I accept that I can’t solve every problem in the world, and that God has to solve it instead of me. That’s called sanity. I also would rather focus on the problems I can solve with the resources I actually have where I am at. That’s called effectiveness. Surely even an atheist can appreciate those values?

 

[Pommer]

Trump supporters have got to learn that just because Trump says something - they don't automatically have to defend it - every time - automatically - like some kind of powerless, agency deprived automaton.

“It’s good practice!”—Lt. Orr, Catch 22

 

[7thKeeper]

I’m a finite human being with finite resources at my disposal. I’m a 31 year old woman who lives thousands of miles away and doesn’t even have the financial resources to travel as far as Ukraine. And what is one woman to do? I would just get killed.

I don't think anyone suggested you personally had to do anything of the sorts. But that you don't walk away as a group/nation, which IS very capable of making a difference.

The best that could come from me is a cheap denouncing of the injustice of the war on social media and ruining my mental health by burning with rage against Putin, the latter of which I will not do. Sometimes I accept that I can’t solve every problem in the world, and that God has to solve it instead of me. That’s called sanity. I also would rather focus on the problems I can solve with the resources I actually have where I am at. That’s called effectiveness. Surely even an atheist can appreciate those values?

Well I personally can't really appreciate that "God has to solve it instead of me", because that's just turning your back on something. I find it odd that you somehow think that you personally have to be somehow heavily involved. There are some people who absolutely are doing that, but it's not an on-off switch where it's only one or the other. Heck, showing support and/or condemning things in public can even be helpful because it shows support for a cause from the public and pushes politicians to act in certain ways.

My point is that NATO is not obligated to act on behalf of Ukraine. The UN also isn’t really obliged to act either unless Russia commits a war crime.

Frankly, nobody is really obliged to do anything, countries lose wars all the time, too bad, how sad, you lost. Now is this war pretty unjust and the loss unfair? Yes. But we live in a fallen world and unfortunately we need to accept the ugly reality of that eventually.

That wasn't the point being discussed in what you replied to, so it came out of left field a bit. And "unless"? They've already been recorded as committing war crimes several times over.

 

[Pommer]

Our founding principles are leave us alone!

Following that... What do we have to do with Ukraine? Like, less than nothing!

If they want to fight a war it's not my problem. I'm fine helping put together a peace deal... We aren't merchants of death...

We went to Ukraine when they had split from the Soviet Union and told them that we’d vouchsafe their defense should Russsia come-a-knocking, if they’d get rid of the nuclear weapons that they had had there.

Should we have done that?
I dunno, but we agreed to do so and not doing so means that we can‘t be trusted to be “the good guys”.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

To be honest I see it the other way around: Trump and Putin are the kids, throwing their weight around, whilst the grown ups, including Zelensky, are trying to find a way out of the war with Ukraine retaining their territory.

Okay. Then let's just let NATO deal with Russia as they were intended and let the United States focus on China. Perhaps Trump can work out a deal to take half of Taiwan's computer chips in return for weapons.

 

[7thKeeper]

Okay. Then let's just let NATO deal with Russia as they were intended *snip*

So... Still USA and Europe?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

No, that is called racketeering and extortion.

No. It's called realism. It was Trump telling Ukraine that they are fighting a war you will not win and all we are doing is enabling you, depleating valuable resources needed to defend against Chinese agression, and delaying the inevitable. We get nothing in return except billions of dollars going into the pockets of the military industrial complex. So we are not charging you for the aid that was given, but because giving aid is no longer in our interest, we can either cut you off entirely, or sell the weapons at a price. So please tell me what you envisioned being the end result of doing what we are doing now?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

So... Still USA and Europe?

No. Let Europe earn it's place at the table and deal with European issues to free up the United States to focus on Asia. I feel like I am getting mixed signals from the left. Wasn't it the left that vilified Bush for dragging the United States into these forever wars? So why now all of a sudden, it is the left who are shrilling because Trump doesn't want to drag the country into another proxi forever war?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

No, the deal would have destroyed whatever postwar future Ukraine had. The deal was so incredibly one sided and also contained no security guarantees for Ukraine.



Because they don't want anyone else listening. You're trying to claim it's because Trump is "strong", but he already began to concede before the talks even began, showing how weak he was. Combined with the lies coming out from the administration as well, this only seems like Ukraine is getting screwed.

Oh please get off your high horse. You can try to pretend about being "grown ups" but the temper tantrums being shown along with the straight up lies says otherwise.

Well what do you know... Trumps claims about those numbers are lies. Who would have thought? Well perhaps everyone who'd paid attention. And if we account aid already allocated to Ukraine but not yet delivered (as it's money committed to them over the following years), the USA is lagging far behind.

So ask yourself why European leaders are not stepping up to fill the void in Ukrain that Trump left? What is stopping them from setting up a meeting. I already know the answer, but I am curious if you know.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

So we are the mob, charging something like 400% interest on the value of what we say we gave them -- particularly since it was a "gift" with no mention of repayment at the time it was given?

How much is it worth to deplete our weapons stock piles and leaving the Pacific vulnerable to China? I think 400% is fair.

 

[Larniavc]

Biden is the one to blame when he started giving weapons to Ukraine. You can not fight a war if you do not have weapons. Of course Biden was just a puppet, but that is another thread.

You wanted RUSIA’s invasion of Ukraine to be successful?

 

[Larniavc]

Have you ever thought about the possibility that Trump supporters defend Trump because they agree with him

Of course Trump supporters agree with him. Why do you think anyone thought otherwise?

 

[Nithavela]

Our founding principles are leave us alone!

Following that... What do we have to do with Ukraine? Like, less than nothing!

If they want to fight a war it's not my problem. I'm fine helping put together a peace deal... We aren't merchants of death...

Technical Difficulties

 

[Nithavela]

We went to Ukraine when they had split from the Soviet Union and told them that we’d vouchsafe their defense should Russsia come-a-knocking, if they’d get rid of the nuclear weapons that they had had there.

Should we have done that?
I dunno, but we agreed to do so and not doing so means that we can‘t be trusted to be “the good guys”.

At this point, nobody in europe believes the USA will come and help us when Russia attacks. We're on our own, and you can't be trusted, even if it happens during the reign of a democratic party president, because they'll just use this precedent as an excuse.