Is the existence of Christianity better for this world

[2PhiloVoid]

Let me guess, you think of me as Johnny

..... oh, that was a hilarious movie for its time. But yeah. Sort of .......... like that.

 

[Hans Blaster]

..... oh, that's was a hilarious movie for its time. But yeah. Sort of .......... like that.

"for its time" thou speakth blasphemy.

As I prepare to log on...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"for its time" thou speakth blasphemy.

As I prepare to log on...

.................. I suppose that to reduce any tensions my "blasphemy" might entail, I could think of another way to handle it all............

 

[stevevw]

Now that you have demonstrated that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person (a proposition which was not seriously disputed in this discussion)

Sorry did I accidently reply to you. I was pointing out evidence for Jesus to another poster who suggested the evidence was light on Jesus.

your next step would be to go somehow from there to proving the right-wing Evangelical Protestant theology you generally preach.

Thats interesting that you call what I say right-wing Evangelical Protestant theology. I honestly have not thought of what I believe or how I see the reality of the bible as having that political sway. I am a Catholic and more sensitive to Cathologism and certainly not a Protestant or right-wing Evangelical.

I think your interpretation of my position is more about how you see others who may disagree with your worldview. You must have a lot of right-wing Evangelical Protestants in your political system. This is a very American thing and I am Australian. I think we are predominately Catholic. Well use to be. Now its 'identity politics' and most religions are seen as irrelevant if not ostrasized.

But that would be unpleasant and very tedious for all of us and you would be unlikely to succeed.. Perhaps we could postpone that discussion and go back to the OP. After all, if Christianity has an effect on society it is because of what Christians do unto to others, whether what they believe about it is true or not.

The problem is I don't see it as right-wing Evangelical Protestant. That did not enter my head. I don't even know what their interpretation is or how they apply this today in politics. Like I said thats American.

As I said I see this as common sense, logical and a reasonable assumption based on our lived reality and what we know today about human behaviour. I am not even making theological or doctrinal claims. Only trying to work it out based on comparing the bible to non bible world and how they behaved. It tells me that the biblical world behaved pretty much the same apart from the context of God using that to fullfill his plan.

 

[stevevw]

No, not exactly that, even though what you're saying here ends up having something to do with what is, I think, the central issue of contention.

OK

Partly, yes. But partly no since philosophical concepts like "justice" don't come from the universe with "Guaranteed Absolute!!!!" labels attached to them.

Ok. So what are you saying, that they need "Guaranteed Absolute!!!!" labels attached to them.

Yes. I think Jesus lit up the runway in the dark for everyone. Now, it's just a matter of getting people grounded safely.

Yes I think so. Is that possible. I think there would be contention over what exactly "grounded safely" means.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK

Ok. So what are you saying, that they need "Guaranteed Absolute!!!!" labels attached to them.

No. I'm not saying that particularly, but.......................... it would help if that were the case. Since it's not, we're all scrambling in the dark to find the light, even ethically.

Yes I think so. Is that possible. I think there would be contention over what exactly "grounded safely" means.

I was speaking metaphorically toward an essentially epistemic grounding, where "landing" involves arriving in the open arms of Christ our Savior.

Of course, you're right though; the same sun that softens the wax also hardens the clay.

 

[BCP1928]

Sorry did I accidently reply to you. I was pointing out evidence for Jesus to another poster who suggested the evidence was light on Jesus.

Thats interesting that you call what I say right-wing Evangelical Protestant theology. I honestly have not thought of what I believe or how I see the reality of the bible as having that political sway. I am a Catholic and more sensitive to Cathologism and certainly not a Protestant or right-wing Evangelical.

I think your interpretation of my position is more about how you see others who may disagree with your worldview. You must have a lot of right-wing Evangelical Protestants in your political system. This is a very American thing and I am Australian. I think we are predominately Catholic. Well use to be. Now its 'identity politics' and most religions are seen as irrelevant if not ostrasized.

That sounded interesting so I looked it up and indeed, Catholics have been a plurality of Christians in Australia since the 1980s. However, as I told you, I am an Anglican who was educated in Catholic schools and I would never take you for either an Anglican or a Catholic based on your expressed opinions about Christianity.

The problem is I don't see it as right-wing Evangelical Protestant. That did not enter my head. I don't even know what their interpretation is or how they apply this today in politics. Like I said thats American.

That may be part of my impression. You are reliably in strict agreement with the poilitical agenda of right wing Evangelical Protestants in this country when it comes to your political opinions and often quote their favorite talking heads in support.

As I said I see this as common sense, logical and a reasonable assumption based on our lived reality and what we know today about human behaviour. I am not even making theological or doctrinal claims. Only trying to work it out based on comparing the bible to non bible world and how they behaved. It tells me that the biblical world behaved pretty much the same apart from the context of God using that to fullfill his plan.

 

[stevevw]

No. I'm not saying that particularly, but.......................... it would help if that were the case. Since it's not, we're all scrambling in the dark to find the light, even ethically.

In some ways we are all scrambling for the same thing but don't stop and think about what ideas like 'Justice' actually represent in reality. Its hard to concieve non material truths. Thats why I think we can know these through our lived reality. How these transcedent truth work in real life.

Its just that we are told over and over that experiences are subjective and everyone is different. But when we stop and think about it we all believe in such ideas because we live them out all the time.

I was speaking metaphorically toward an essentially epistemic grounding, where "landing" involves arriving in the open arms of Christ our Savior. Of course, you're right though; the same sun that softens the wax also hardens the clay.

I watched a video of Peterson who basically said epistemically if you are truely seeking truth this brings you to Christ who claims to be the truth which is a scary proposition as it brings you to the foot of the cross. We are all seeking truth and today people say there are many truths.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In some ways we are all scrambling for the same thing but don't stop and think about what ideas like 'Justice' actually represent in reality. Its hard to concieve non material truths. Thats why I think we can know these through our lived reality. How these transcedent truth work in real life.

Its just that we are told over and over that experiences are subjective and everyone is different. But when we stop and think about it we all believe in such ideas because we live them out all the time.

I watched a video of Peterson who basically said epistemically if you are truely seeking truth this brings you to Christ who claims to be the truth which is a scary proposition as it brings you to the foot of the cross. We are all seeking truth and today people say there are many truths.

Do you realize I have a degree in Philosophy? I'm just wondering because you always seem to talk at me as if................I'm somehow completely and utterly uninformed, about almost everything. I can't really take much of that sort of "addressment" from people for very long.

I'm just going to say that while I respect the fact that you make an effort to assert some cogent points, some of which I occassionally agree with to a limited extent, what you've just stated in this post about "lived reality" comes across to me as mere truism. The not so commonly recognized fact is, much of what we think is true, particularly where metaphysics and religion are evaluated, don't bear out easily---and sometimes not at all--- in the experience of "lived reality."

But more than that, we have way, way too many people, both religious and non, just flapping their jaws with simplistic truisms, especially where the notion of knowing absolutely what "justice" is---------------and I find this to be the case whether they are Liberal or Conservative politically.

For my part, I do not pretend to "know" any absolutes in regard to "justice."

On the other hand, I also don't pretend that I don't have a reasonable notion for what a reasonable definition of essential reality is. But a lot of people sure like to tell me otherwise about it all......................

 

[BCP1928]

In some ways we are all scrambling for the same thing but don't stop and think about what ideas like 'Justice' actually represent in reality. Its hard to concieve non material truths. Thats why I think we can know these through our lived reality. How these transcedent truth work in real life.

Its just that we are told over and over that experiences are subjective and everyone is different. But when we stop and think about it we all believe in such ideas because we live them out all the time.

I watched a video of Peterson who basically said epistemically if you are truely seeking truth this brings you to Christ who claims to be the truth which is a scary proposition as it brings you to the foot of the cross. We are all seeking truth and today people say there are many truths.

You should be scared, because the cross Peterson is leading you to is yours, not Christ's and supply-side Jesus is laughing all the way.

 

[stevevw]

That sounded interesting so I looked it up and indeed, Catholics have been a plurality of Christians in Australia since the 1980s. However, as I told you, I am an Anglican who was educated in Catholic schools and I would never take you for either an Anglican or a Catholic based on your expressed opinions about Christianity.

I really have no denomination. I go to a couple of different churches and none are Catholic as I find it boring. Maybe its changed. We have a good uniting church and I also go to a small independent church as its local grass roots and has people my age. Good for socialising. But I also work with other churches as I am involved in community work.

But I think common sense is important and most of these different churches are on the same page. In fact some of the non Christains I work with are on the same page. Gods truth should also be reflected in everyday reality and common sense.

That may be part of my impression. You are reliably in strict agreement with the poilitical agenda of right wing Evangelical Protestants in this country when it comes to your political opinions and often quote their favorite talking heads in support.

But if thats the case then I don't think the right wing Evangelical Protestants are as right winged as you say as my position is pretty middle of the road and pretty common sense. A quick glance at their ideas they mention Creationism and prayers in schools and against evolution. Well they missed me on those ones as I'm not a creationist and I support evolution.

But other issues like anti abortion, euthanasia, porn and drugs I agree with and I think thats a common sense position for most Christains.

 

[BCP1928]

I really have no denomination. I go to a couple of different churches and none are Catholic as I find it boring. Maybe its changed. We have a good uniting church and I also go to a small independent church as its local grass roots and has people my age. Good for socialising. But I also work with other churches as I am involved in community work.

But I think common sense is important and most of these different churches are on the same page. In fact some of the non Christains I work with are on the same page. Gods truth should also be reflected in everyday reality and common sense.

But if thats the case then I don't think the right wing Evangelical Protestants are as right winged as you say as my position is pretty middle of the road and pretty common sense. A quick glance at their ideas they mention Creationism and prayers in schools and against evolution. Well they missed me on those ones as I'm not a creationist and I support evolution.

Where do you stand on gun control, global warming, single-payer health care, immigration, the death penalty, child labor laws and trade unions?

But other issues like anti abortion, euthanasia, porn and drugs I agree with and I think thats a common sense position for most Christains.

Catholics don't go to church to avoid boredom. They go to experience the real presence of Christ in the Sacraments.

 

[stevevw]

Where do you stand on gun control,

Against guns. In Australia I think the 90's we had a buy back of all guns and then banned them apart from farmers or sports. England are a bit the same. But as a result knife assaults and murders have increased.

global warming, single-payer health care, immigration, the death penalty, child labor laws and trade unions?

Global warming is real. Its darn hot here in Queensland at the moment. Some places you literally bake in the sun going inland. But I do believe this is subject to false facts and used for political reasons. You can tell because the protests and activism gets radical and violent.

Not sure about the death penalty. Its a bit like euthenasia. We don't have the death penalty. I would have to think about that. On the face of it on the one hand I could imagine liberals being against it and conservatives being for it. Its certainly been a part of human history since forever. I would think ultimately the idea of justice may demand the death penalty in some cases.

Child labor. I was only talking about that on here recently. In the 1800s I think 8 and 10 year olds worked selling papers, shoe shinning ect as families lived in poverty. Some even did mining. But of course its wrong. But that is different to volunteer arangements as I have nothing against youth gaining work experience or working within the family maybe on a farm feeding the chooks ect.

Unions are needed to ensure workers rights but they can become a political force and abuse power as well.

Catholics don't go to church to avoid boredom. They go to experience the real presence of Christ in the Sacraments.

Like I said I am a lapsed Catholic. I don't relate to that. I let I think when I was like 14 I think. I got involved in other churches by circumstance and the thought never crossed my mind as to which denomination they were. Only that they seemed good people who believed in God and Christ His Son.

 

[stevevw]

You should be scared, because the cross Peterson is leading you to is yours, not Christ's and supply-side Jesus is laughing all the way.

What on earth are you talking about. I was saved well before I dicovered Petersons work. Its the complete opposite. Peterson has led 1,000s to Christ and saved countless relationships, marriages and peoples minds which is very practical of him.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Catholics don't go to church to avoid boredom. They go to experience the real presence of Christ in the Sacraments.

And I thought it was because they made us and would send us to hell if we didn't. If it was for the experience of 'real presence' I would have stopped years before given the utter lack of such "experience".

 

[BCP1928]

And I thought it was because they made us and would send us to hell if we didn't. If it was for the experience of 'real presence' I would have stopped years before given the utter lack of such "experience".

Experiences like that (as any Buddhist, for example, will tell you) require certain amount of training which Western Churches have largely forgotten. You were right to leave whether you continued to believe in God or not. The most important benefit of being religious is that it should be fun in the here and now. If it's all stick and no carrot what's the point?

 

[Reneep]

For my example of why Chritianity is good is . JUST take a look at the oppression in the rest of the world for clues.

 

[FireDragon76]

Today I watched the final episode of Family Guy Season 22, which explores whether the presence of religion is beneficial to the world. Actually, I don't think I should be serious about a cartoon, but when I think about it, I do doubt the positive impact of Christianity in today's world, and my textbooks are telling me that Christianity hindered human progress during the Renaissance, and I would like to see more debate on that

Since I am not good at English, I decided to simply write down the two questions I asked to make it easier for you to understand：
1 What role does Christianity play in the world today.2 Does Christianity hinder social progress?

Most scientists in the Renaissance and Enlightenment were Christians of one kind or another, so I think whatever you are reading is misguided.

Christianity, rightly understood, is not an enemy of reason or human development, but serves as a foundation for both. The story of God in Christ is the central axis of western civilization, as professor Tom Holland has demonstrated in his book, Dominion. The image of God revealed in the tortured body of a peasant on a cross, who dared to defy the unjust powers of his day on behalf of the marginalized and poor, has had a profound effect on the western consciousness, largely in a direction most of us would have to admit, if we are honest, has been positive on the whole, even if it hasn't been uncomplicated. The only large social movement that has actively rejected its influence in modernity has been fascism, which explicitly repudiated the values of Jesus of Nazareth and his people.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, just Christianity as a religion. Believing in the Gospel is enough to put anybody off Christianity as a religion. Who needs it? Matt 18:20

Indeed. Christianity arguably doesn't exactly fit the Roman understanding of religio, as there is no human sacrifice or rite involved that unites us to God (to put on my Lutheran hat for a minute, only God coming to us). The earliest Christians called themselves "followers of the Way". People like Justin Martyr just saw Christianity as the highest philosophy, not a religion, and therefore saw perfect continuity between his vocation as philosopher, and a Christian.

 

[stevevw]

Experiences like that (as any Buddhist, for example, will tell you) require certain amount of training which Western Churches have largely forgotten. You were right to leave whether you continued to believe in God or not. The most important benefit of being religious is that it should be fun in the here and now. If it's all stick and no carrot what's the point?

Depends what you mean by fun. Christ said He is the way, truth and life and that He gives life to the full. That may not be fun as in a party fun or going to a funpark. But its fullfilling and of substance that it can make a person feel full of life in a meaningful way.

But sometimes there is setbacks as far as this world is concerned. Such as missing out on accumulating material things for which people equate fun with. Or you my be attacked for your belief in Christ. But in that is a joy which surpasses anything this world could offer as its plugging into a greater meaning beyond the material world.

Put it this way Christ says your life can be no better then following Him.