IF Ai & droids grow exponentially & cause a post-scarcity world - what are YOU going to do all day?

[BCP1928]

Human memory is free. At least it will be until Big Brother tells me to forget about it.

No, that's the serious question behind all this. If it is to be AI which creates the wealth instead of human workers. how is that wealth going to be distributed?

 

[Aaron112]

True, but tools are not particularly sinful.
As a carpenter, Jesus used tools.

In Hebrew language tools are not included in the world . afaik.

World is society, which is not only altogether sinful, it is death-dealing "pernicious" re Galatians.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, that's the serious question behind all this. If it is to be AI which creates the wealth instead of human workers. how is that wealth going to be distributed?

And that's the billion dollar question, which we'd all like to know the answer to.

 

[Sabertooth]

In Hebrew language tools are not included in the world . afaik.

At best, AI is just a tool.

 

[Aaron112]

At best, AI is just a tool.

Remember it is written: if Torah is used badly, that is bad.
Human society does not use ai 'goodly'. Being so perverse , it cannot.

 

[Sabertooth]

Remember it is written: if Torah is used badly, that is bad.
Human society does not use ai 'goodly'. Being so perverse , it cannot.

Isn't that true for any "tool...?"

 

[Aaron112]

Isn't that true for any "tool...?"

Shrugs. Who knows.
If a toddler uses a perfect hammer to hammer in some nails, and breaks a few windows or glasses or anything in the process, it very well may not be bad, but good still. YHVH is WONDER-FULL!

 

[Aaron112]

And that's the billion dollar question, which we'd all like to know the answer to.

I think the Bible says that the rich and powerful are punished perfectly and righteously by the Creator for robbing the poor daily, <and> for holding back honest wages due.

 

[Diamond72]

We are not required to work

We are required to work according to Paul and the Bible. Even though work could be about the fallen condition of mankind. Jesus clearly said we will always have poor people:

Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you​

https://biblehub.com/matthew/26-11.htm
In Psalm 139 16 God writes the book of our life, every chapter and verse at or before out conception. This is why we say this is the day the lord has made.

Someone still has to build the machines. Although with nano technology they believe that we can create a molecular world that will build itself.

By manipulating materials at the atomic or molecular level, scientists are making strides in creating self-assembling systems and even self-repairing materials. This means we could potentially build intricate molecular structures that can adapt, evolve, and repair themselves autonomously.

One of the most exciting prospects is the development of nanobots—tiny robots capable of performing specific tasks at the molecular level. Imagine a future where these nanobots could be used in medicine to target and destroy cancer cells, or even in environmental cleanup efforts to remove pollutants from water and soil.

 

[Diamond72]

I think the Bible says that the rich and powerful are punished perfectly and righteously by the Creator for robbing the poor daily, <and> for holding back honest wages due.

We are to have an honest scale. The scales of Justice are very exact and precise. We see this in how exact and precise the laws of the universe are.

 

[Sabertooth]

...or even in environmental cleanup efforts to remove pollutants from water and soil.

The nanobots, themselves, can be a type of pollutant if they accumulate...

 

[eclipsenow]

And that's the billion dollar question, which we'd all like to know the answer to.

I thought I had shared that a few times? Here's the phrase Universal Basic Income unpacked a bit....

...the concept of universal basic income (UBI) is looking more and more like a necessity, not just a far-fetched idea.​

​

So, what exactly is UBI?​

​

In a nutshell, UBI is a system where everyone gets a fixed amount of money from the government, no strings attached. The idea has been around for centuries, but it’s gained a lot more traction in recent years.​

​

Why? Well, with the rise of automation and AI, many experts (myself included) believe that job displacement is inevitable. We’re talking millions of jobs potentially being taken over by machines in the coming decades.​

​

The Impact of AI on the Labor Market​

Now, I know what you might be thinking: “But AI has been around for a while, and we still have jobs.”​

​

True, but we’re on the cusp of something big. AGI, which is essentially AI that can think and learn like humans, is no longer just a sci-fi concept.​

​

AI researchers predicted that AGI could become a reality by 2028. And once that happens? They believe all human jobs could be automated within the next 120 years.​

https://firstmovers.ai/post-agi-universal-basic-income/

Who indeed? Will humans still be in government in say 20 years? Or will Ai have regular surveys of the population on various priorities - and just run the world that way? Will our "Social Influencers" take on even more powerful roles in a global population that has vastly more time to watch Youtube and engage with ideas - and where decorating the neighbourhood or that new Mega-project being built across your nation is now the hottest conversation topic in the local Town Hall?

Which was kind of all in the OP - but I admit - it was a long OP!

 

[eclipsenow]

We are required to work according to Paul and the Bible. Even though work could be about the fallen condition of mankind. Jesus clearly said we will always have poor people:

Matthew 26:11 The poor you will always have with you​

Matthew 26:11 - Jesus Anointed at Bethany

Yes - but there are many ways to be poor.

We can be time-poor, have poor social skills, poor attitude, poor graces, or even recognise that we ourselves are "poor in spirit." (Which makes us humble - and essential requirement for rightly understanding the gospel.)

I'm asking us to think this through from a biblical point of view in case this technological revolution even can happen. I don't know that it can. But when half the leading experts think AGI will be here in around 1000 days - we are going to see white-collar jobs gradually replaced by Ai 'agents' operating PC's as if there were people there - and being lawyers and accountants etc. Then we'll even see Ai droids - like less whiny C3PO's - in our factories, in our homes, and in our lives. The jobs that require brute-force AND finesse might be the last to go - eg: plumber. But one day there might even be plumber-droids with chunkier arms / servo attachments that can do things. Who knows?

https://biblehub.com/matthew/26-11.htm

In Psalm 139 16 God writes the book of our life, every chapter and verse at or before out conception. This is why we say this is the day the lord has made.

Yes? We're not talking about life.

Someone still has to build the machines. Although with nano technology they believe that we can create a molecular world that will build itself.

This is where I had it back to front and upside down. Self-replicating nano-bots are probably a lot more difficult than self-replicating macro-scale robots. Self-replicating nano-bots are probably more an idea from Science Fiction (which you can tell I love!) than the real world.

By manipulating materials at the atomic or molecular level, scientists are making strides in creating self-assembling systems and even self-repairing materials.

Not self-replicating - but yes I've heard about self-repairing materials. Some like new concretes that suck in CO2 as they cure!

This means we could potentially build intricate molecular structures that can adapt, evolve, and repair themselves autonomously.

Hmmm - heard of the 'grey goo' accident? It's like the 'paper-clip' problem - only tinier.

But again - nanites are going to be hard enough to fabricate in bulk and inject into a patient to do the right things and not the wrong things - let alone trying to make them self-replicate. This is my favourite futurist channel - he's a legend! I've been following him since he only had maybe 2k subs - and since he did speech therapy to limit his rhoticism. Back in the heyday of the channel when he was describing a bunch of the new technologies that could be coming our way - he would absolutely blow my mind about once every 10 episodes. I'm Geek by culture, not by training. That is - I have a humanities background but I deeply respect the sciences and am excited by the potential in various engineering projects. This guy built up various techs like characters in a long TV series - and then every 10th episode (just a ballpark average) would stack them together to do new things that just blew. My. Mind!

One of the most exciting prospects is the development of nanobots—tiny robots capable of performing specific tasks at the molecular level. Imagine a future where these nanobots could be used in medicine to target and destroy cancer cells, or even in environmental cleanup efforts to remove pollutants from water and soil.

I absolutely agree with you! But as far as I remember - if Isaac Arthur is sceptical about them becoming self-reps, then we should be. Again - that could even be quite dangerous.

On the other hand - you know what is already a self-rep? Civilisation. That is - IF the Ai revolution actually proves possible - I imagine it could give us the resources to finally spread out into the solar system - but that's another story. But in the meantime - I don't think we need some kind of magical Science Fiction self-replicating machine that just eats dirt and leaves and suddenly "plop" there's a new baby one!

Meet the ROBOTIC INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX! (RIC). This is the scale of the self-replicating system I'm talking about.
The world will continue to have mines and factories and enormous Ai server farms. It's just that for every tree that gets cut down, hopefully 1000 will be planted. For the first few generations at least!

But what would they look like? I think for efficiency RICs would look like huge, concrete bunkers built to survive the most random and horrible climate super-storm, and also built to last for centuries. With free transport by Ai-trucking or trains, they are well outside our cities - and of course any earthquake zones or potential flood zones. Trucks stream raw materials in, and other trucks stream out to supply warehouses in the cities.

These complexes would have everything from metal smelters in one bunker through to chip 'clean rooms' in another. It might also be shielded by a few dozen miles of freshly planted California redwoods, grown both to protect against high winds - and to shield holiday makers from the potential ugliness of a RIC as they pass by on some new holiday adventure. (But a RIC would of course also have an attractive visitor's centre and Butler droid to act as tour guide when kids went on excursions to see where our stuff comes from.)

What would we do with all our corporate campus and office buildings? While the Ai-revolution will start there - where the jobs already are - they do not need human workstations with keyboards and monitors, nor do they need social spaces, cafeterias, toilets, plumbing, an auditorium, nor the endless meeting rooms! But these could be retrofitted into residential or recreational. Even the ugliest concrete car park tower could be boarded up, painted, decorated with plants, and turned into the local 'Amazon' warehouse for fast delivery of goods to the local area.

Imagine one day all today's poor, in those awful tatty run down places, being driven across town and asked to choose where they and their family and friends would like to live? That beautiful Eco-Campus with the modern central public square, or the olde English themed village with the quaint pub?

There are just too many tatty old, run down suburbs that are not only a blight on the land, but spirits. Their parts might be salvaged and recycled and the land rehabilitated into gardens, or agriculture, or forests, or bee farms, or.... you name it.

 

[Diamond72]

Yes - but there are many ways to be poor.

Yes, but Jesus was talking about those who live below the poverty level. Yes on a symbolic level poor can mean many things. We know that those who are poor in what the world has to offer are rich in love. They sacrifice themselves for each other. They give out of their need and not out of what is excess for them. So their sacrifice in giving is greater for them.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, but Jesus was talking about those who live below the poverty level. Yes on a symbolic level poor can mean many things. We know that those who are poor in what the world has to offer are rich in love. They sacrifice themselves for each other. They give out of their need and not out of what is excess for them. So their sacrifice in giving is greater for them.

I don't know that it's a big theological problem if say some nations enter a post-scarcity world and others are not - due to trade embargoes or whatever. Also - I don't even know that what he said was that prescriptive - or if it was descriptive. It could very well include the poor in social graces. This is covered by the discrimination we see prohibited in James - not giving favoured seating to the 'rich' or the socially powerful over the 'poor'.

Anyway - it's all relative. I've heard discussions about fights over the most favoured stick in some poor African village. Or have you seen "The God's Must be Crazy?" It's an old comedy now - with a very different vibe. But a pilot chucks a coke bottle out of a small plane, and the village below all want the shiny thing the gods threw at them. Jealousy over the small things can be just as real as jealous over the large. Coveting occurred back when there were only huts and livestock. The wealth we enjoy today also creates jealousy amongst us - but compared to those fighting over the favoured stick or coke bottle we're all living like royalty! What could we possibly be jealous about when we all have so much?

In exactly the same way - even in a post-scarcity society I think we will still have the poor. You just have to look for them.

 

[Diamond72]

I don't even know that what he said was that prescriptive - or if it was descriptive.

There are rules for Bible interpretation, we learn hermeneutics in Bible College.

 

[eclipsenow]

Absolutely! (Not that I've done a theology degree or anything - but I tend to respect my friends who have.)

We shall see. Maybe we'll be revisiting this 'poor' thing in 10 years if we start to see AGI arrive and get deployed into ever more nimble Handyman Droids and Butler Droids and Police Droids... etc etc etc? Or maybe not. Maybe AGI is actually impossible. As I keep saying the experts are 50 / 50.

I just don't think this one line of Jesus is prescriptive against:-

1. Society trying to do better by the poor! I hate it when I hear certain alt-right preachers trying to assuage the conscience of their congregation that 'market forces just work this way' and Jesus said 'We'll always have the poor.' That kind of reading of it would be foreign to all the social justice laws and prophetic rebukes in the Old Testament and Jesus heart for the poor in the New.
2. Us comparing the situation today? Australia has some public housing (but needs much more with our housing crisis!). These people have had a hard run, or health problems, or whatever - and so end up in public housing. They are on welfare payments. They are poor. But by the standards of the poor in Jesus day - they live like Kings and Queens. They have education. They have abundant clean water that comes out of a tap - not out of a hole in the ground a few miles walk away. They have toilets - that keep that fresh water clean. They have great food. They have access to medicine that actually works! They have entertainment - and even if they cannot afford a TV (and most would have one) - they can have a phone with access to unimaginably well written free talking books, podcasts, radio, or just walk to the local public library or street library and take one!
3. An AGI post-scarcity economy ever happening. The emphasis in the story was Jesus being prepared for burial! Jesus was going to die for them! They didn't really understand - and so whined about the sheer money in this event. In that context Jesus explains they would 'always have the poor' - compared to him - who was about to be executed. In other words I do NOT think the subject was the economic conditions of a post-industrial information economy like ours today - where Australian welfare recipients live like Kings (despite very real 'cost of living' pressures) - or even a post-scarcity economy where people might live like Emperors without even 'working'!
4. Also note - the same event is recorded differently in the gospels. Some emphasise the shock at the expense of it, while John doesn't even record that but focusses on Jesus pronouncing the woman to be forgiven - and the shock of the crowd's reaction to that! The others say his hair was anointed - emphasising the oil tradition for OT kings being anointed. But John records her anointing Jesus feet and kissing his feet - taking on the role of a servant foot washer but so lovingly that Jesus talks about the love of those who have been forgiven more. Why the different details? Do we really know what actually happened? Is the bible contradicting itself - I thought it was meant to be inerrant? Well - not so fast. We are shoving a modern legal framework where we put the bible through the grinder of being in the dock. Every inconsistency screams out "Untrustworthy" and so certain apologists cringe and try to reconcile them all - make it all work down to every last detail. EG: Some have Jesus denying Jesus 6 times - or the rooster crowing 6 times - in their efforts to reconcile that story. Sometimes we need to slow down and actually do the hermeneutics to understand what is going on! Here is Dr John Dickson - now in Wheaton College in the USA but was a friend of mine down here in Australia - who examines the gospels and the genre of biography back then - how it was practiced in secular writing (with the example of the assassination of Julius Caesar) - and how there are literary rules of the time that emphasise character in story telling - but not necessarily the details today. The bible remains 'inerrant' if we value the genres it was written in enough to do the hermeneutics and get the correct message - without distorting it to our own ends, through our own political or cultural frameworks - and can actually bother to hear the actual message it is teaching. Gospel Contradictions

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Reminds me of the animatrix

 

[Aaron112]

There are rules for Bible interpretation, we learn hermeneutics in Bible College.

Notice Jesus does not teach that, nor that way. Nor does Father Abba Yahweh Creator Almighty.

 

[Aaron112]

Will humans still be in government in say 20 years?

Are humans still in government today ? .... or even for the last 100 years ?
Some? Few? A mix ?
Man's government ?

God's Kingdom Instead Separate from the world , not of the world ?