WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

[Aaron112]

Sorry. I'm finding it difficult to grasp the meaning of your post. I would appreciate it if you would explain the point you are attempting to make.

Without knowing where in Scripture, I was waiting to see who knows.....

God's people OBEYED God's Instructions.
God punished them.
Nothing unclear about this.
Find where it happened to see why God punished His people when they obeyed Him.

 

[Wansvic]

I'm pretty certain all things considered that this idea is fully man's tradition added to help people feel better and perhaps other historical nefarious purposes at different points in time and place.

There is no hope, no indication of hope, for anyone after they pass if they are not already "born again" by the Will of the Father, not of man, nor of the flesh,

John 1:13​

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Amplified Bible​

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13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father],

but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

I am not familiar with any scripture that specifically addresses the issue. However, the scripture I previously shared reveals all people over the age of 20 perished in the wilderness due to their refusal to believe and obey God. Yet, God had mercy on those 20 and under. Since God is no respecter of persons the implication is clear. The mental capacity of the two groups was not the same.

Consider It was through no fault of their own that those known and created by God in their mother's womb met their demise prior to being given the opportunity to make a choice.
Powerful are the words that express God's love for each and everyone of us who were not yet born:
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!" Ps 139:13-17


In addition, scripture does state that God would have all people to be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth to be testified in due time. (1 Tim. 2:4-6)

 

[Mercy Shown]

Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot see or enter the kingdom, and all detailed conversion accounts reveal both water and Spirit are essential elements of the NT rebirth.

Being born of water probably refers to physical birth. 1st century people were unaware that amniotic fluid was not water. Also, either you or Doug Brents insisted that baptism was instituted at Pentacost, and as you know, Jesus entertained Nicademous in this conversation before Pentacost. So either or both ways it is imposiible to use this as a proof text with any certianty.

I do not accept, as some, that receiving the Holy Spirit takes place during water baptism. Scripture reveals water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Spirit are both required regardless of sequence. (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

They are both elements of the gift of salvation God gives us, however Baptisim is subject to circustances as one can see from the story of Zacheus and the thief on the cross. Baptsim has no salvific power where as the Holy Spirit does. The former is symbolic and testimonal but the latter is the power that changes us into the likeness of Christ.

I've addressed the fact that Infant baptism is not scriptural. Infants and young children do not have the mental capacity to make the choice whether or not to accept Jesus and obey His teachings. The biblical record reveals there is an age of accountability. (Numbers 14:26-29) As such, those who die prior to reaching that point are not destined for hell. It is only a personal opinion, but I believe it is possible that they will be given the opportunity to make a choice in the Millennial reign.

Here, a claim that infants and young children are not destined for hell, is made without any support. If one cannot be saved without baptism, then unbaptized children will not be saved. A legalist would disagree since they see children as blameless. They predicate damnation on physical actions rather than on the state of humanity from birth. Psalms 51:5 states,"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" Jesus said that what is born of flesh is flesh.

Insisting that baptism is essential for salvation excludes all who, like the paraplegic lowered through Peter's roof, have no opportunity to testify of the death of their flesh and resurrection of their spirit through baptism. In essence, some believers have made baptism the new circumcision.

The referenced scripture from Numbers reveals those who murmur against God will fall/die in the wilderness:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me. (Numbers 14:26-29)


Yes, as you say, we are justified by the blood of Jesus. The question is, How is the blood applied? Consider what Paul revealed: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:..." Rom. 6:3-6. Also, take note of the scripture you referenced. Hebrew 10:14 reveals there is a process in which we are being made holy in association with the sacrifice of Jesus. "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." And, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." (Heb. 12:14)

The list of scriptures you reference must be taken in context to gain an accurate understanding.

They speak clearly for themselves. The Bible tells us that salvation is predicated upon believing in and on Jesus. The word "belief" is weak compared with the word used in Greek, which means "completely trust in, believe in, rely on." Baptism is an effect and not a cause.

If I use the logic employed by those who believe in Jesus but also partially rely upon their own work or works for salvation, I would read Romans 10:9, which states authoritatively, "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." I would then conclude that all mute individuals would be damned because while the believed in their hearts, they did not declare with their mouths.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I apologize. It certainly was not my intention to insult you. The point I was trying to make is the account reveals something different than what you believe. The people were guilty of disobedience. They neglected to take steps of faith in accordance with the word that would have resulted in their being born again. Therefore, all their efforts were in vain.

Something different than what I believe? How about something different than what you think I believe? The account reveals and supports exactly what I believe. We are not saved or damned by our actions. Actions spring from the thoughts and thoughts spring either from the flesh or The Spirit. This was the whole point of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. As Jesus expressed, all sin comes from within a man. Disobedience is the physical manifestation of

Jesus knows those who have been buried with HIm into His death through water baptism in His name, and have received the Holy Spirit, The NT rebirth is not optional; it is foundational. (Heb. 6:1-2, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) It is imperative that people obey Jesus' command and wait to be equipped for ministry by first being born again. (Luke 26-49)


"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the thingS which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49

You are concluding here that is not germane to our discussion. You are referring to a person who has the opportunity to be baptized but refuses to do so. That is much different from a person who cannot be baptized due to circumstances. If a person refuses to be baptized despite the opportunity to do so, I will posit that they have never been saved nor received Christ as their Lord.

 

[Mercy Shown]

They believed He was their Lord, and that the things they did demonstrated that He was their Lord. But they did not obey Him. Yes, there are things that we must do to receive salvation, not that they earn salvation but they are actions without which we do not receive His gift/blessing.

He was not their Lord, and actions are effects, not causes. When one makes an action out to be a cause, one is into legalism since one predicates salvation to one degree or another on that action instead of predicating the action upon salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

He was not their Lord, and actions are effects, not causes. When one makes an action out to be a cause, one is into legalism since one predicates salvation to one degree or another on that action instead of predicating the action upon salvation.

Sorry, but there is a third category into which some actions fall, besides cause and effect. And that is catalytic. The action is neither the cause nor the effect, but is completely arbitrary on the part of the One who is the Cause. For example:
God commanded the nation of Israel to march around the city of Jericho so that the walls would fall down and they could take the city.
1. Did their marching knock the walls down? No, therefore the marching was not the cause of the walls falling.
2. Did they march after the walls fell? No, therefore the marching was not a result of the walls falling.
3. Would the walls have fallen if they had not marched? No, therefore the marching was a condition of God that had to be met before HE knocked down the walls.

Similarly, God commanded Naaman to dip seven times in Jordan in order for his leprosy to be healed.
1. Did the water of Jordan cleanse his leprosy? No, therefore neither the dipping nor the water was the cause of his healing.
2. Did he dip after he was cleansed? No, therefore the dipping was not a result of his being cleansed.
3. Would he have been cleansed if he had not dipped the seventh time? No, therefore the dipping was a condition of God that had to be met before HE removed the leprosy.

You see? Conditions are not acts of earning, nor are they acts of either cause or effect.

 

[Mercy Shown]

So "belief" is the ONLY thing that ANY Scripture says is required to receive salvation? Sorry, but that would mean that Romans is not Scripture, because in Rom 10:9-10 Paul says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation. And Acts would also not be Scripture. Because in Acts 3:19 Luke tells us that repentance from sin RESULTS in receiving salvation. These are just examples, but they show that "belief" is NOT the ONLY thing that God commands of us to receive His gift of salvation.

Yes, the only thing is belief. Jesus said, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29 The Greek word means to "trust in, rely on and adhere to." A person will confess with their mouths if they believe. Of course, according to the strict standards placed on these kinds of texts by certain believers, those who are mute will not be saved. I don't believe that.

I can not imagine a scenario where someone confesses their belief in Christ with their mouth before they believe. Regarding what Paul says, don't make the mistake of selecting only verses that fit your bias. We must understand vernacular. For example, I was unsure what kind of tree I had in the yard of a new house I bought, whether a cherry or a crab apple. A friend said, "Hey if it produces carb apples, it will be a crab apple tree." That did not mean that it was not already a crab apple tree. It was not the crab apples that made it a crab apple tree.

Repentance is part of salvation; it is not something different or apart from it. We are saved from our sins, not in our sins. Repentance done reluctantly or to gain something is not repentance at all. The heart must be changed before we will repent. But to try to make it separate from salvation is impossible. Also, we will not repent if we do not already believe. Salvation is not a set of legalistic steps, it comes from God who is the author and finisher of it. All godly works come from salvation. As Paul says, we were saved unto good works and not the other way around. Eph 2:10

 

[Mercy Shown]

Sorry, but there is a third category into which some actions fall, besides cause and effect. And that is catalytic. The action is neither the cause nor the effect, but is completely arbitrary on the part of the One who is the Cause. For example:
God commanded the nation of Israel to march around the city of Jericho so that the walls would fall down and they could take the city.
1. Did their marching knock the walls down? No, therefore the marching was not the cause of the walls falling.
2. Did they march after the walls fell? No, therefore the marching was not a result of the walls falling.
3. Would the walls have fallen if they had not marched? No, therefore the marching was a condition of God that had to be met before HE knocked down the walls.

Both their marching and the falling of the walls were an effect of their faith. If they had no faith in God, they would not have marched, nor would the walls have fallen. The marching was an external ceremony to show their eternal faith.

 

[Wansvic]

Something different than what I believe? How about something different than what you think I believe? The account reveals and supports exactly what I believe. We are not saved or damned by our actions. Actions spring from the thoughts and thoughts spring either from the flesh or The Spirit. This was the whole point of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. As Jesus expressed, all sin comes from within a man. Disobedience is the physical manifestation of

You are concluding here that is not germane to our discussion. You are referring to a person who has the opportunity to be baptized but refuses to do so. That is much different from a person who cannot be baptized due to circumstances. If a person refuses to be baptized despite the opportunity to do so, I will posit that they have never been saved nor received Christ as their Lord.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like. However, Jesus Himself revealed why He never knew them. They neglected to lay a proper foundation:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." Matthew 7:24-29

 

[Mercy Shown]

Similarly, God commanded Naaman to dip seven times in Jordan in order for his leprosy to be healed.
1. Did the water of Jordan cleanse his leprosy? No, therefore neither the dipping nor the water was the cause of his healing.
2. Did he dip after he was cleansed? No, therefore the dipping was not a result of his being cleansed.
3. Would he have been cleansed if he had not dipped the seventh time? No, therefore the dipping was a condition of God that had to be met before HE removed the leprosy.

You see? Conditions are not acts of earning, nor are they acts of either cause or effect.

Again, these were both effects of obedience. Naaman was angry at first because he felt disrespected by the prophet of God. It was not that he disbelieved, but his ego was wounded. Once, he cooled down and listened to his servant. He obeyed because he believed.

 

[Mercy Shown]

You are entitled to believe whatever you like. However, Jesus Himself revealed why He never knew them. They neglected to lay a proper foundation:

So, do you think that they did not earn their salvation? Are you saying that it is up to us to lay the foundation? Is this not Grace Plus Works?

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." Matthew 7:24-29

You keep bringing this up. Why?

 

[Wansvic]

Sorry, but there is a third category into which some actions fall, besides cause and effect. And that is catalytic. The action is neither the cause nor the effect, but is completely arbitrary on the part of the One who is the Cause. For example:
God commanded the nation of Israel to march around the city of Jericho so that the walls would fall down and they could take the city.
1. Did their marching knock the walls down? No, therefore the marching was not the cause of the walls falling.
2. Did they march after the walls fell? No, therefore the marching was not a result of the walls falling.
3. Would the walls have fallen if they had not marched? No, therefore the marching was a condition of God that had to be met before HE knocked down the walls.

Similarly, God commanded Naaman to dip seven times in Jordan in order for his leprosy to be healed.
1. Did the water of Jordan cleanse his leprosy? No, therefore neither the dipping nor the water was the cause of his healing.
2. Did he dip after he was cleansed? No, therefore the dipping was not a result of his being cleansed.
3. Would he have been cleansed if he had not dipped the seventh time? No, therefore the dipping was a condition of God that had to be met before HE removed the leprosy.

You see? Conditions are not acts of earning, nor are they acts of either cause or effect.

Thank you for sharing! Such a great explanation.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, the only thing is belief.

Sorry, but as I have shown you belief is NOT the only thing that Scripture says is required to receive salvation.

Jesus said, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29 The Greek word means to "trust in, rely on and adhere to." A person will confess with their mouths if they believe. Of course, according to the strict standards placed on these kinds of texts by certain believers, those who are mute will not be saved. I don't believe that.

The word "believe" here (and almost everywhere in the NT) comes from the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. Faith is NOT a passive, mental only concept. As James make clear in James 2:14-26, faith requires action or it doesn't really exist. It is dead, useless, meaningless and ineffective if there is no action associated with it. And faith does not "earn" salvation, but it is absolutely required to receive salvation.

I can not imagine a scenario where someone confesses their belief in Christ with their mouth before they believe.

That is never even a consideration of Scripture.

Repentance is part of salvation; it is not something different or apart from it. We are saved from our sins, not in our sins. Repentance done reluctantly or to gain something is not repentance at all. The heart must be changed before we will repent. But to try to make it separate from salvation is impossible.

Certainly it is a part of salvation. As Acts 3:19 says clearly, repentance must be don IN ORDER TO RECEIVE forgiveness. It is not effective if done out of compulsion, nor is it effective if it is just lip-service. Repentance means turning our actions, attitudes, and desires away from our sinful past to a life of chasing after God and His righteousness. But it most certainly must be done before salvation is received, or salvation is not received at all.

Also, we will not repent if we do not already believe. Salvation is not a set of legalistic steps, it comes from God who is the author and finisher of it. All godly works come from salvation. As Paul says, we were saved unto good works and not the other way around. Eph 2:10

Repentance is not a "good work" that one might use to "earn" salvation.

Both their marching and the falling of the walls were an effect of their faith.

No. The walls falling down was an effect of God's power. It had nothing to do with them marching. Their marching was an act of faith.

If they had no faith in God, they would not have marched, nor would the walls have fallen. The marching was an external ceremony to show their eternal faith.

Precisely. And their faith had to be demonstrated before God would knock the walls down.

Again, these were both effects of obedience.

Again, no. His healing was an effect of God's power. It had nothing to do with the water or his dipping. His dipping was an act of faith.

Naaman was angry at first because he felt disrespected by the prophet of God. It was not that he disbelieved, but his ego was wounded. Once, he cooled down and listened to his servant. He obeyed because he believed.

And if he had not obeyed even after he "believed"? Nothing would have happened. He would have gone home a leaper.

Another example is the bronze serpent on the pole that Moses was commanded to raise when Israel was being bitten by serpents because of their sin. If anyone looked at the serpent they would be healed of the poison. But if they did not look, they would not be healed. This is an act of faith. There is nothing in the looking that has the power to heal the poison. And there is nothing in the bronze, or the staff, or any of the rest of it that could heal the poison. But because God commanded it so, and the people did it, the effect was that they were healed.

 

[Wansvic]

So, do you think that they did not earn their salvation? Are you saying that it is up to us to lay the foundation? Is this not Grace Plus Works?

You keep bringing this up. Why?

I continue to bring up the scripture in hopes you will get it. Jesus made it clear those who hear His sayingS and do them are wise builders. Hebrews 6:1-2 reveals believers must lay the foundation one time and afterward go on unto perfection.

Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

 

[Wansvic]

Sorry, but there is a third category into which some actions fall, besides cause and effect. And that is catalytic. The action is neither the cause nor the effect, but is completely arbitrary on the part of the One who is the Cause. For example:
God commanded the nation of Israel to march around the city of Jericho so that the walls would fall down and they could take the city.
1. Did their marching knock the walls down? No, therefore the marching was not the cause of the walls falling.
2. Did they march after the walls fell? No, therefore the marching was not a result of the walls falling.
3. Would the walls have fallen if they had not marched? No, therefore the marching was a condition of God that had to be met before HE knocked down the walls.

Similarly, God commanded Naaman to dip seven times in Jordan in order for his leprosy to be healed.
1. Did the water of Jordan cleanse his leprosy? No, therefore neither the dipping nor the water was the cause of his healing.
2. Did he dip after he was cleansed? No, therefore the dipping was not a result of his being cleansed.
3. Would he have been cleansed if he had not dipped the seventh time? No, therefore the dipping was a condition of God that had to be met before HE removed the leprosy.

You see? Conditions are not acts of earning, nor are they acts of either cause or effect.

Would you mind if I share these exact points with others? As well as your explanation concerning Moses staff?

 

[Aaron112]

The mental capacity of the two groups was not the same.

Wherever did this idea come from , Scripture or some group ?

 

[Mercy Shown]

I continue to bring up the scripture in hopes you will get it. Jesus made it clear those who hear His sayingS and do them are wise builders. Hebrews 6:1-2 reveals believers must lay the foundation one time and afterward go on unto perfection.

You are assuming something that is not true. Are you sure that you are not the one missing what Jesus has said? It can be hard to look past the log. Jesus said, "Whoever believes in me shall not perish..." Jesus said, "I assure you that whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and won't come under judgment but has passed from death into life." Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life," Jesus said, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life." Jesus said, "and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you believe his words?

Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:2 mentions "instruction about washings" (Greek: baptismōn), which some interpret as a reference to Christian baptism. However, there are strong reasons to argue that this passage is not explicitly discussing Christian baptism.

First, baptismōn is plural, meaning "washings" rather than a singular baptism. In the New Testament, Christian baptism is typically referred to in the singular form (baptisma), as seen in passages like Matthew 28:19 and Ephesians 4:5. The use of the plural here suggests multiple washings rather than the one baptism associated with Christian conversion.

Second, the broader context of Hebrews 6:1-2 points to foundational teachings relevant to Jewish believers transitioning to Christianity. These teachings align with Old Testament and Jewish traditions rather than distinct Christian doctrines. The reference to baptismōn fits well with Jewish purification rites, common in the Old Testament (e.g., Leviticus 16:26, Numbers 19:7) and continued in first-century Judaism (Mark 7:4).

Additionally, later in Hebrews (9:9-14), the author explicitly discusses ritual washings (baptismōn) in contrast to the cleansing power of Christ’s blood. If Hebrews 6:2 referred to Christian baptism, it would be inconsistent with this later passage, where such washings are depicted as part of the old system that Christ superseded.

Furthermore, Christian baptism in the New Testament is closely tied to themes such as participation in Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4), receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), and entry into the New Covenant. These themes are absent in Hebrews 6:2, making it unlikely that this verse refers to Christian baptism.

Finally, considering the Jewish Christian audience of Hebrews, it makes sense that baptismōn would refer to Jewish ceremonial washings rather than a uniquely Christian practice. The letter frequently contrasts old Jewish customs with the superior work of Christ, and this passage likely refers to the elementary teachings they were familiar with before fully embracing the gospel.

For these reasons, Hebrews 6:2 is best understood as referencing Jewish ritual washings rather than Christian baptism.

 

[Wansvic]

Wherever did this idea come from , Scripture or some group ?

"The key difference between an adult and a child's mental capacity is that a child's mind is still developing, and have a lower capacity to understand and make reasoned decisions, and fully grasp the consequences of their actions compared to a fully developed adult mind." This Internet definition explained it far better than I could.

 

[Doug Brents]

Would you mind if I share these exact points with others? As well as your explanation concerning Moses staff?

Certainly. If it helps others see the truth, I encourage you to use it, and give God the glory.

 

[Doug Brents]

Wherever did this idea come from , Scripture or some group ?

As @Wansvic pointed out, the idea starts with Scripture. It is further corroborated by what we have learned about the human mind. My wife is an early childhood educator specializing in autism. Her training, education, and experience has shown her that children's minds continue developing through their 18 year and beyond. Children do not have the same reasoning capacity that adults have. They do not have the same experience, knowledge, associative linkages, and mental processing power that adults have developed. Even Jesus learned, grew, and developed as He grew (Luke 2:52).