Is loving God a work?

[Xeno.of.athens]

The meaning of the statement is that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit working within one that one loves God, not by one's own power.

I am not sure what your statement means nor why you think you need to state it. We are saved by grace, according to the scriptures, that seems sufficient to say.

 

[Clare73]

I am not sure what your statement means nor why you think you need to state it. We are saved by grace, according to the scriptures, that seems sufficient to say.

Check the context. . .

 

[Jo555]

Just saying, still shimmering.
You know who you are.

 

[Jo555]

View attachment 360582

Just saying, still shimmering.
You know who you are.

Funny thing is, I couldn't remember the name, for sure anyway, but I recognized the dress. Striking.

 

[Hoping2]

I don't understand the question or conflict, but I think i have an idea of what you are saying.

If we love God because He first loved us, Jesus is inconsequential to our loving.
If we love God because He loved us, how could Jesus gift us with that love ?
Who is responsible then, God or Jesus ?

Faith and the love of God are a growing revelation in our lives that transforms us from glory to glory as we keep our eyes on Him. I have faith that He saved me and loves me, but at times my faith is lacking in other areas beyond salvation.

Wasn't it gifted to you by Jesus ?
How can you grow in love, if it was gifted to you ?
Or is that gifting done in bits and pieces ?

We cannot attain that revelation of ourselves, and looking at the law does not change us, just shows us what we are apart from Christ. That plays an important role too, but cannot move us forward. We do that by looking into the perfect law that sets us free-Christ and He makes is his willing love slaves.

Why bring up the Law ?
My love for God was the result of what He has done for me-us-mankind.
It didn't have to be given to me, as it was the result of what I knew.
I don't believe in forced love.
Love must be a personal choice.

 

[Hoping2]

The law without love is just a harsh taskmaster, demanding obedience, but not lifting a finger to help us.

Kinda off topic, but, OK.

But let us not think the taskmaster is at fault. No. He's good and righteous, the problem is with us and our problem to overcome on our own.

The whole OT's problem...eh ?

Now in Christ we can as we rely on Him, denying ourselves and following Him, but He has given us the power to do that, his Spirit/Heart of love.

Yes, by the gifts of repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and rebirth from God's seed...thanks be to God.

It is pride to think we can do it apart from Him and we know God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Everyone's initial step is apart from God.
We believe, then act on that belief.
Then we become part of Him...or maybe better said, He becomes a part of us.

If we are walking in defeat, we need to examine if we are trying to attain something in our own strength through the law.

Thank God those days are over !

I have to start dinner, but if you want to clarify some more for me, please do so because I am just not seeing the conflict you see.

Happy supper !

 

[Jo555]

If we love God because He first loved us, Jesus is inconsequential to our loving.
If we love God because He loved us, how could Jesus gift us with that love ?
Who is responsible then, God or Jesus ?

Wasn't it gifted to you by Jesus ?
How can you grow in love, if it was gifted to you ?
Or is that gifting done in bits and pieces ?

Why bring up the Law ?
My love for God was the result of what He has done for me-us-mankind.
It didn't have to be given to me, as it was the result of what I knew.
I don't believe in forced love.
Love must be a personal choice.

You taking bits and pieces and saying how so?

I'm still unsure of all your in contention about, but I will address what I can.

He loved us and gave his life for us so that through Him we can be embodied by his Spirit, who leads us by his love.

We love Him because He first loved us.

We grow in the revelation of that love.

Ephesians 3:
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

I brang up the law to tie it into my thoughts. Love is not a personal choice. You can't choose to love someone. The heart doesn't choose. The heart is won over. His Spirit, if you are a believer, abides in you and expresses His love also abides in your heart.

So I'm not sure how you are tying this into what I said about putting love over obedience for his love is the power by which we obey. All commandments are fulfilled in his love.

Excuse me if I'm not following your point of contention. I'm spread out tonight, but hopefully I've been able to address your questions.

 

[Jo555]

You taking bits and pieces and saying how so?

I'm still unsure of all your in contention about, but I will address what I can.

He loved us and gave his life for us so that through Him we can be embodied by his Spirit, who leads us by his love.

We love Him because He first loved us.

We grow in the revelation of that love.

Ephesians 3:
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

I brang up the law to tie it into my thoughts. Love is not a personal choice. You can't choose to love someone. The heart doesn't choose. The heart is won over. His Spirit, if you are a believer, abides in you and expresses His love also abides in your heart.

So I'm not sure how you are tying this into what I said about putting love over obedience for his love is the power by which we obey. All commandments are fulfilled in his love.

Excuse me if I'm not following your point of contention. I'm spread out tonight, but hopefully I've been able to address your questions.

1 john 4:
17 And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.

18 Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 19 We love each other[a] because he loved us first.

 

[Jo555]

If we love God because He first loved us, Jesus is inconsequential to our loving.
If we love God because He loved us, how could Jesus gift us with that love ?
Who is responsible then, God or Jesus ?

Wasn't it gifted to you by Jesus ?
How can you grow in love, if it was gifted to you ?
Or is that gifting done in bits and pieces ?

Why bring up the Law ?
My love for God was the result of what He has done for me-us-mankind.
It didn't have to be given to me, as it was the result of what I knew.
I don't believe in forced love.
Love must be a personal choice.

Here are a bit more details on love being a choice. This is where I stand on it.

It's a little difficult for me to follow you at times because i don't always understand your point, or point of contention, but as time permits i eill try

Do We Really Have a Choice?

Do We Really Have a Choice? Have you ever considered that question? The topic of choices is all over the bible. Others tell us love is a choice and we can choose to forgive. Unfortunately, we human beings have perpetually gravitated...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Hoping2]

You taking bits and pieces and saying how so?

If Jesus has given us love for Him, how can we grow in that ?
Don't we either have that love, or not have that love ?

I'm still unsure of all your in contention about, but I will address what I can.
He loved us and gave his life for us so that through Him we can be embodied by his Spirit, who leads us by his love.

You have written that we love God because He first loved us.
Then write that Jesus gifted us with the love we have for Him.
So, we either love God because He loved us first, OR, we love God because Jesus gifted us with that ability.
Isn't that an A or B choice ?

We love Him because He first loved us.

Isn't that apart from Jesus making us love Him ?

We grow in the revelation of that love.
Ephesians 3:
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Yeah, but I am talking about the onset of our love for God.
Is it because God loved us first ?
Or is it because Jesus caused it ?

I brang up the law to tie it into my thoughts. Love is not a personal choice. You can't choose to love someone.

I disagree.

The heart doesn't choose. The heart is won over.

After it is won over, we still have the choice to love, or not.
I mean...we love God BECAUSE He loved us first.
Not because Jesus gifted us with any ability to love Him.

His Spirit, if you are a believer, abides in you and expresses His love also abides in your heart.

Yes, though rather after the fact.

So I'm not sure how you are tying this into what I said about putting love over obedience for his love is the power by which we obey. All commandments are fulfilled in his love.

It is just that you make it sound like we are robots.

Excuse me if I'm not following your point of contention. I'm spread out tonight, but hopefully I've been able to address your questions.

No prob.
I see my love for God...and neighbor, as my choice; though based on what God has done for me in the past.
God has done all the same things for every soul on earth, and plenty of them don't love God.
They choose not to love Him.
I choose to love Him.

 

[Jo555]

If Jesus has given us love for Him, how can we grow in that ?
Don't we either have that love, or not have that love ?

You have written that we love God because He first loved us.
Then write that Jesus gifted us with the love we have for Him.
So, we either love God because He loved us first, OR, we love God because Jesus gifted us with that ability.
Isn't that an A or B choice ?

Isn't that apart from Jesus making us love Him ?

Yeah, but I am talking about the onset of our love for God.
Is it because God loved us first ?
Or is it because Jesus caused it ?

I disagree.

After it is won over, we still have the choice to love, or not.
I mean...we love God BECAUSE He loved us first.
Not because Jesus gifted us with any ability to love Him.

Yes, though rather after the fact.

It is just that you make it sound like we are robots.

No prob.
I see my love for God...and neighbor, as my choice; though based on what God has done for me in the past.
God has done all the same things for every soul on earth, and plenty of them don't love God.
They choose not to love Him.
I choose to love Him.

Let us agree to disagree because nitpicking words just makes it a time consuming and tedious task and I'm
not going down that rabbit hole. It's also quite confusing and God is not the author of confusion. I think your attempt at sarcasm is confusing me because I don't get it. If you would just say stuff like, "I don't agree that we grow in the revelation of his love"

I've already provided scriptures that support a growing revelation of God's love. But i don't even believe you can choose to believe or not, it has to be revealed to you, and your heart can close.

But to summarize, his Spirit is deposited in you, including all the fruits, and you grow in the revelation of his love.

 

[Jo555]

Hoping 2:
No prob.
I see my love for God...and neighbor, as my choice; though based on what God has done for me in the past.
God has done all the same things for every soul on earth, and plenty of them don't love God.
They choose not to love Him.
I choose to love Him.
[/QUOTE]

Jo555: I personally see this as a prideful comment, but hey, been there done that, and still go there at times. We all must learn one way or another. You can click on the link i shared on, "Do We Really Have a Choice?" Don't have much more to say on topic.

 

[Jo555]

If Jesus has given us love for Him, how can we grow in that ?
Don't we either have that love, or not have that love ?

You have written that we love God because He first loved us.
Then write that Jesus gifted us with the love we have for Him.
So, we either love God because He loved us first, OR, we love God because Jesus gifted us with that ability.
Isn't that an A or B choice ?

Isn't that apart from Jesus making us love Him ?

Yeah, but I am talking about the onset of our love for God.
Is it because God loved us first ?
Or is it because Jesus caused it ?

I disagree.

After it is won over, we still have the choice to love, or not.
I mean...we love God BECAUSE He loved us first.
Not because Jesus gifted us with any ability to love Him.

Yes, though rather after the fact.

It is just that you make it sound like we are robots.

No prob.
I see my love for God...and neighbor, as my choice; though based on what God has done for me in the past.
God has done all the same things for every soul on earth, and plenty of them don't love God.
They choose not to love Him.
I choose to love Him.

Have more time now. Everyone sleeping and have had time to try and decipher what you've said.

You big issue seems to be that Ive said we love him because he first loved us, and we grow in the revelation of that.

You seem to believe it is one or the other. I don't see it that way. None of us can love God apart from his Spirit. God first loved us and gave his son as a ransom for us (Jesus willingly) so that we can be born of his Spirit. He lives in every believer. John 3.

We also grow in the revelation of his love. I've already given you scriptures.

I don't see what the problem is.

It doesn't mean that you are a robot if you don't love God apart from Him. It just means that you can do nothing without Him.

But it appears you are missing some understanding on these things, and I just don't have the time to cover a whole theological discussion on all that, like predestined and God the one choosing. A prayerful study of Romans may help for now.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I see, so then, love is a work that you say God performs.

Faith is God's gift and work, faith is extra nos, from outside ourselves ("not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" of Ephesians 2:8). Faith working through love is the appropriation of the faith we receive put into action. Without faith we could not love (at least, not the sort of love which is meant here, that love born out of the newness and renewal that is in Christ, which is God-and-neighbor orientated which springs freely from the power and working of the Holy Spirit). Ephesians 2:8-9 speaks of the extra nos, the power, work, and gift of God from outside ourselves. Ephesians 2:10 is where the extra nos meets the nos--we were created for good works, to walk in them, to abide and live in them--to live lives governed by love (love of God and love of neighbor). Thus love is the fruit of cooperation, of man walking and living by the Spirit, abiding in Christ, as a child of God.

When God declares me just He declares me just on the basis of Christ and His Cross--the One who is crucified is just, I am unjust--the just suffered for the unjust, and is justifier of the unjust. I am, therefore, the recipient of a foreign righteousness, a righteousness not my own, but a righteousness that is Christ's. It is Christ who was obedient, I am a disobedient son of Adam and bear in myself the disobedience of Adam, I am a sinner, and bear in my own flesh the fruit of this disobedience: death. Christ, the New Adam, undoes what Adam did, and I am, in Christ, the inheritor of a new man; so that even as I have born the image of the first man in my sinful, corruptible, mortal flesh; so in Christ I am to bear the image of the new man; now through faith, and in the resurrection when this mortal puts on immortality, this corruptible puts on the incorruptible, when this flesh is raised up and glorified even as Christ was.

I receive, as an inheritance, the promise, which I have through the Spirit; and in the hope of what is to come it does not matter whether I am a Jew or a Gentile, but rather in the Messiah--of which there is one new man--in this way I am an heir of Abraham who was justified through faith, and as a true son of Abraham live out the calling and vocation as one who belongs to God, not to sin. Thus faith working through love.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

For we through the Spirit, by faith, are eagerly waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
(Galatians 5:5-6 LSB)

Is love a work?

Love is not a "work of the law", a merely external pretense at holiness. This is what both Jesus and Paul firmly objected to. Love is the real thing.

It's both a gift of grace (a work of God's in us), and a human choice, to embrace and express and grow in that gift. It's the greatest of all the gifts of virtue (1 Cor 13:13), and yes, is an obligation as well. Without it we aren't even children of God. Love is the only authentic means to authentic obedience; it's the righteousness that the law and prophets testify to but could never accomplish (Rom 3:21), as it fulfills the law (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14). It’s what faith leads us to as faith unites us with Him, the very source of love. Love is the ultimate healer of the world; it's why Jesus came, His motivation-and it’s meant to be ours as it compels us to be holy (Heb 12:14, 1 Pet 1:16, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:12-14) and do good (Rom 2:7) which separates the sheep from the goats in Matt 25. A 4th century bishop, Basil of Caesarea:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

 

[Jo555]

Love is not a "work of the law", a merely external pretense at holiness. This is what both Jesus and Paul firmly objected to. Love is the real thing.

It's both a gift of grace (a work of God's in us), and a human choice, to embrace and express and grow in that gift. It's the greatest of all the gifts of virtue (1Cor 13:13), and yes, is an obligation as well. Without it we aren't even children of God. Love is the only authentic means to authentic obedience; it's the righteousness that the law and prophets testify to but could never accomplish (Rom 3:21), as it fulfills the law (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:14). It’s what faith leads us to as faith unites us with Him, the very source of love. Love is the ultimate healer of the world; it's why Jesus came, His motivation-and it’s meant to be ours as it compels us to be holy (Heb 12:14, 1 Pet 1:16, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:12-14) and do good (Rom 2:7) which separates the sheep from the goats in Matt 25. A 4th century bishop, Basil of Caesarea:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

So many good things being shared, and really love this summary.

If the fear of punishment could turn people away from their wicked ways, then the law would have been a success and their would be no reason for Jesus.

Fear can only work as a means to help contain human behavior when they are not operating in love.

If I am driving wreckless thinking of where I want to go and getting there as quickly as I can, with no consideration for the harm it can cause others, and myself, then fear of the law would serve me well, but it has no power to move me forward in love.

It serves me. I am not to serve it.

I do move forward in the love of God that causes me to be considerate to other drivers. That i do by death with Christ so i can flourish in his love.

And concentrating on the cops/law is not going to help me either. It's just going to get the focus back on me and i need to get over myself and move forward.

What is also interesting in this topic is that we tend to see these things in regards to sin, but the Lord has really been teaching me how fear also robs us of the ability to hear from Him in other areas in our lives.

For instance, awhile ago I was given some awful news. I was told if I go right, bad. If I go left, bad. If I go nowhere, bad.

Fear had gripped me and wouldn't let me go. I sought the Lord much for direction and He just kept showing me doors open, after I closed them, which puzzled me, and people were trying to break in and rob me. I would close them again only to return to find them open again.

I was getting disheartened and frustrated because I just wanted to know what to do, and time appeared to be of essence and i didn't know why He kept showing me the doors and people trying to rob me or break in.

He kept along the same lines and so I realized He is not going to give in to what I want this time and I need to see what He wants to show me, even though I couldn't see how it related to my situation at the time, but trusting He will take care of the situation as I gave Him what He wanted and listened to what He was trying to show me.

As I listened instead of insisting on my own way, I realized He was showing me that my fears were opening doors to being robbed of hearing from Him, and using what He has given me, like love, peace, and sound mind, to decide.

The situation was very fearful for me nothing to do with sin as we generally see it, except in lack of faith. And it didn't help that lefty, in his good intentions feeling he could best help me, was piling on the fear on top of what I already had, and others were fearful too and appeared to be operating in fear too when I shared with them. I really felt all were well intended, we just all lacked a stronger trust in God, and lefty appeared to then start taking my lack of not moving forward with him, personal and began to become something dark.

Anyway, as i worked on my trust in God for the situation and the removal of fear, months later I am amazed at how much peace I have. Makes no logical sense, the peace that passes all understanding. I still am not sure if I made the right decision, but I feel it is the best decision right now and know that as long I keep my eyes on Him and listen to Him, directing me within, and however else He may choose, but still confirmed by his Spirit within me, everything is going to be ok.

Anyway, went on, but i thought it was a very helpful thing the Lord was been growing me in regards to fear, which we tend to think of more in regards to sin. And it was sin in a sense in regards to lack of faith, but no condemnation. He wants to help us, not condemn us.

 

[Hoping2]

Let us agree to disagree because nitpicking words just makes it a time consuming and tedious task and I'm
not going down that rabbit hole. It's also quite confusing and God is not the author of confusion. I think your attempt at sarcasm is confusing me because I don't get it. If you would just say stuff like, "I don't agree that we grow in the revelation of his love"

I've already provided scriptures that support a growing revelation of God's love. But i don't even believe you can choose to believe or not, it has to be revealed to you, and your heart can close.

But to summarize, his Spirit is deposited in you, including all the fruits, and you grow in the revelation of his love.

From what you have written, you believe that God makes us love Him.
I believe that He doesn't force anyone to love Him.
Those that have chosen to love Him, will indeed grow in grace and knowledge, and in the revelation of His love.

 

[Hoping2]

Hoping 2:
No prob.
I see my love for God...and neighbor, as my choice; though based on what God has done for me in the past.
God has done all the same things for every soul on earth, and plenty of them don't love God.
They choose not to love Him.
I choose to love Him.

Jo555: I personally see this as a prideful comment, but hey, been there done that, and still go there at times. We all must learn one way or another. You can click on the link i shared on, "Do We Really Have a Choice?" Don't have much more to say on topic.
[/QUOTE]

Would you rather have a spouse that you forced to love you, or a spouse who chose to love you ?

 

[Hoping2]

Have more time now. Everyone sleeping and have had time to try and decipher what you've said.

You big issue seems to be that Ive said we love him because he first loved us, and we grow in the revelation of that.

You seem to believe it is one or the other. I don't see it that way. None of us can love God apart from his Spirit. God first loved us and gave his son as a ransom for us (Jesus willingly) so that we can be born of his Spirit. He lives in every believer. John 3.

We also grow in the revelation of his love. I've already given you scriptures.

I don't see what the problem is.

It doesn't mean that you are a robot if you don't love God apart from Him. It just means that you can do nothing without Him.

But it appears you are missing some understanding on these things, and I just don't have the time to cover a whole theological discussion on all that, like predestined and God the one choosing. A prayerful study of Romans may help for now.

This all sprang from the OP..."Is loving God a work?"
Your POV seems to be that it is not, as God does all the work.
My POV, is that we must love God in order to be saved on the day of judgment...making our love a "work" that must be done to be saved.
Growing in the revelation of that is not an issue.
All that God has done for me, and for mankind, has led me to love Him: but He didn't force me to love Him.

The only works that Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law. i.e. circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, priesthoods, etc.

 

[Jo555]

From what you have written, you believe that God makes us love Him.
I believe that He doesn't force anyone to love Him.
Those that have chosen to love Him, will indeed grow in grace and knowledge, and in the revelation of His love.

There is a difference between being forced to love someone, like instilling fear which can only act like I love, but not reach the heart, and loving them because you know them intimately and are captivated by them.

The bible describes us as slaves to either our carnal nature due to lust, or willing love slaves of Christ because the revelation of his love and goodness and such.

When it speaks of liberty it speaks of ot in context with liberation from carnal nature.