A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Have you noticed the Roman Catholics in this thread telling you you are mistaken?

Yes. And I notice that when they tell us we are mistaken, they deny other things they themselves have said, over and over again.

Also how do you figure the Roman church is swearing? That’s literally absurd.

The Roman church authorities are defined according to the vows they have sworn.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

For this reason you ought to ask clergy...

No, I ought not to ask clergy or anyone else whose authority is defined by the vows they swear.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed for staff review​

 

[linux.poet]

MOD HAT ON​

A cleanup was done to remove a flaming back and forth, and after review, this thread is being reopened.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It has recently come to my attention through prayer that the greatest work we can do is obedience. Obedience is the denial of self and accepting the abasement of humility, which is our Christian service.

Whom do we obey? In one of Peter’s epistles, he says to obey all those that have authority over us.


1Peter 2
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.
21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. 23 Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not: but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly. 24 Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were as sheep going astray; but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls

Not just the good bosses, but also the forward

Froward means willful and disobedient. If your dog sits when you call her to come and runs away when you tell her to sit, you can say she's froward. The adverb froward is an old-fashioned way to describe someone who's difficult and ornery


As a Catholic, my obedience to those over me extend to my priest, my bishop and the Pope
As children, our first test of obedience is to our parents

In the modern age, we are told to throw off oppression, but that is not godly advice. We all think we know better and point out the flaws of those that would be our leaders. This is not the will of God, and puts us under the curse of Ham

Noah was the father. He planted a vineyard and became drunk. He was found naked by Ham. Ham went and told his brothers thereby exposing his father to further disgrace. Shem and Japheth had godly intent when they turned their backs and covered their fathers nakedness, restoring his dignity.

When we have a rebellious prideful mentality, we behave as Ham and bring ourselves under a curse, although we may believe ourselves to be justified. “See how bad my leaders are! They don’t deserve my obedience”

No, to live godly in Christ Jesus, we need to obey our leaders and find ways to restore their dignity and not expose them to open shame

I will no longer join in ridiculing the Pope. He is the Holy Father here on Earth. He has the keys of the kingdom of heaven by apostolic succession. He wears the fisherman’s ring and sits in the chair of Peter. He deserves my obedience and respect

 

[The Liturgist]

When we have a rebellious prideful mentality, we behave as Ham and bring ourselves under a curse, although we may believe ourselves to be justified. “See how bad my leaders are! They don’t deserve my obedience”

It’s not pride to obey the clear teaching of the Fathers including those of your own church.

I will no longer join in ridiculing the Pope. He is the Holy Father here on Earth. He has the keys of the kingdom of heaven by apostolic succession. He wears the fisherman’s ring and sits in the chair of Peter. He deserves my obedience and respect

I am adamantly opposed to ridiculing Pope Francis as it is uncharitable. However insofar as his actions have directly contradicted those of his predecessors, particularly with regards to human sexuality and the traditional liturgy, and also insofar as the doctrine of Papal Supremacy is expressly contradicted by Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea and Canon 8 of Ephesus, which affirmed the autocephalous status of the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus, and furthermore rebuked Patriarch John of Antioch for ordaining bishops for Cyprus without the consent of the Archbishop of that church, something the Popes of Rome have been doing since the Crusades, it is not immoral for Orthodox Christians, who are not subject to the Pope of Rome, and indeed, whose bishops of Antioch also occupy the Chair of Peter, to oppose the recent actions of the Pope of Rome and furthermore demand that the Roman Catholic churches on Cyprus be placed under a Western Rite Orthodox bishop appointed for that purpose by the Archbishop of the autocephalous Church of Cyprus, much like the Western Rite Vicarate of the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the ROCOR, and the total recension of Fiducia Supplicans and removal of all German bishops who have contradicted Pope Francis and declared an intent to allow homosexual clergy and bless same sex relations (the problem is not so much with Pope Francis himself as with the disobedience of those under him, and his unwillingness to correct this) as a prerequisite to further ecumenical relations.

Obviously such actions would in turn enable discussions about restoring communion and removing churches under autocephalous Eastern bishops from Roman canonical territory and putting them under Greek Catholic bishops. The canonical territory of the Church of Rome in antiquity consisted of North Africa except Egypt, and roughly speaking what are now the states of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, the German regions of Bavaria, Franconia and the Saarland, and possibly Britannia (but there is also some evidence to suggest the British Isles were either an autonomous church under the Omophorion (Pallium) of the Roman Church or were an autocephalous church supported by Rome, or something in between, like the early state of the Churches of Armenian, Georgia and the East when their primate had the title Catholicos, indicating the status of a semi-Patriarch with a kind of shared authority with the Patriarch of Antioch, but all three became autocephalous in due course (and a second Armenian Catholicos was ordained to preside over the church in the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and autocephalous Armenian Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem, in addition to the original Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin and All Armenia).

 

[Jo555]

The greatest fruit is love (1 Cor 13). The greatest work I see is servanthood that flows from the fruit of love (Isaiah 52: 13-15, Isaiah 53).

It takes humility to be a servant, and it is the highest position in the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately, we live in an upside kingdom.

Love God with all, and neighbor as self.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The greatest fruit is love (1 Cor 13). The greatest work I see is servanthood that flows from the fruit of love (Isaiah 52: 13-15, Isaiah 53).

It takes humility to be a servant, and it is the highest position in the Kingdom of God. Unfortunately, we live in an upside kingdom.

Love God with all, and neighbor as self.

God says if you love me, keep my commandments. One commandment is that He prefers obedience rather than sacrifice.

Who do you obey? That tells you who you love. As scripture says, how can we claim to love God whom we have not seen, if we do not love our brother whom we can see? Love is humility. Humility is obedience

 

[Jo555]

God says if you love me, keep my commandments. One commandment is that He prefers obedience rather than sacrifice.

Who do you obey? That tells you who you love. As scripture says, how can we claim to love God whom we have not seen, if we do not love our brother whom we can see? Love is humility. Humility is obedience

A servant's heart is not a sacrifice when you love.

What are his commandments?

To love God with all, and neighbor as self and in these two commandments are all commandments fulfilled.

Think we are saying similar things.

I just see God as love and I see humility as understanding without Jesus, we can do nothing.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It’s not pride to obey the clear teaching of the Fathers including those of your own church.



I am adamantly opposed to ridiculing Pope Francis as it is uncharitable. However insofar as his actions have directly contradicted those of his predecessors, particularly with regards to human sexuality and the traditional liturgy, and also insofar as the doctrine of Papal Supremacy is expressly contradicted by Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea and Canon 8 of Ephesus, which affirmed the autocephalous status of the churches of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Cyprus, and furthermore rebuked Patriarch John of Antioch for ordaining bishops for Cyprus without the consent of the Archbishop of that church, something the Popes of Rome have been doing since the Crusades, it is not immoral for Orthodox Christians, who are not subject to the Pope of Rome, and indeed, whose bishops of Antioch also occupy the Chair of Peter, to oppose the recent actions of the Pope of Rome and furthermore demand that the Roman Catholic churches on Cyprus be placed under a Western Rite Orthodox bishop appointed for that purpose by the Archbishop of the autocephalous Church of Cyprus, much like the Western Rite Vicarate of the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the ROCOR, and the total recension of Fiducia Supplicans and removal of all German bishops who have contradicted Pope Francis and declared an intent to allow homosexual clergy and bless same sex relations (the problem is not so much with Pope Francis himself as with the disobedience of those under him, and his unwillingness to correct this) as a prerequisite to further ecumenical relations.

Obviously such actions would in turn enable discussions about restoring communion and removing churches under autocephalous Eastern bishops from Roman canonical territory and putting them under Greek Catholic bishops. The canonical territory of the Church of Rome in antiquity consisted of North Africa except Egypt, and roughly speaking what are now the states of Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg, the German regions of Bavaria, Franconia and the Saarland, and possibly Britannia (but there is also some evidence to suggest the British Isles were either an autonomous church under the Omophorion (Pallium) of the Roman Church or were an autocephalous church supported by Rome, or something in between, like the early state of the Churches of Armenian, Georgia and the East when their primate had the title Catholicos, indicating the status of a semi-Patriarch with a kind of shared authority with the Patriarch of Antioch, but all three became autocephalous in due course (and a second Armenian Catholicos was ordained to preside over the church in the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and autocephalous Armenian Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem, in addition to the original Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin and All Armenia).

The canons of Nicea and Ephesus, which you mention, do not deal with the question of autocephalous rule.

I am sure that you mean well, and like Jesus said, Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.

Do you have something more specific which established autocephalous rule of Bishops? Or where was it understood that the Chair of Peter applied to all Bishops?

I also look for consistency. You say that the Bishop of Rome is first among equals, yet there are many in your Churches that say the Roman pontiff is not even in the Church.

This sounds like you say, since the Roman Pontiff does not agree to be first among equals, we consider him no longer a bishop at all.

I would need to see the canons that give a Bishop authority to break apart the Church, which is the body of Christ, over a disagreement. I don’t see this authorized by our Lord, nor scripture, nor any council. Unity of the Body does not require you to adopt the Latin rite, nor force liturgical norms that are foreign or unfamiliar.

It merely requires that you submit to Our Lord’s Prayer that the Church be one and He and the Father are one. God loves variety and we as humans are imperfect and can glimpse the perfection of God yet not attain it for ourselves, as there is only one God

To claim your individuality is one thing, but to say that individuality makes the Roman Pontiff no longer part of the Church is a grave matter. The Holy See recognizes your sacraments and holy orders as valid, yet the recognition is not returned and the schism is maintained. It’s not a simple fix and would take an ecumenical council. We had that at Florence, but one Bishop voted to continue the schism

The canons, that you cited, state that in a case of strong opposition, the majority of bishops would prevail. That was ignored at Florence.

One who is prideful is never aware of his pride. There is human pride on both sides, but the existence of that pride is not an excuse to continue the schism, and it is a disgrace before God. It requires the Bishops to heal the schism not us. They will answer to God.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

A servant's heart is not a sacrifice when you love.

What are his commandments?

To love God with all, and neighbor as self and in these two commandments are all commandments fulfilled.

Think we are saying similar things.

I just see God as love and I see humility as understanding without Jesus, we can do nothing.

What you say is correct but not complete. God is love and without Jesus we can do nothing that is true, but scripture teaches that we cannot claim to love Jesus and pretend the rest of the world does not exist.

Jesus did not teach rebellion as many claim. He told His disciples that the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, so do whatever they tell you, but do not do as they do. Unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven

If we love God, we obey the leaders placed over us, there is no excuse for rebellion. The Christians were persecuted because of a perceived threat, yet there is no record that they ever broke any law, nor stated any rebellion.
Today we have nothing but rebellion. The Calvinist reformers that claimed to be the institution of the Christian religion are Presbyterian and are known as the “split Ps”

 

[Jo555]

What you say is correct but not complete. God is love and without Jesus we can do nothing that is true, but scripture teaches that we cannot claim to love Jesus and pretend the rest of the world does not exist.

Jesus did not teach rebellion as many claim. He told His disciples that the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, so do whatever they tell you, but do not do as they do. Unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven

If we love God, we obey the leaders placed over us, there is no excuse for rebellion. The Christians were persecuted because of a perceived threat, yet there is no record that they ever broke any law, nor stated any rebellion.
Today we have nothing but rebellion. The Calvinist reformers that claimed to be the institution of the Christian religion are Presbyterian and are known as the “split Ps”

Yesterday i actually backtracked a bit after my replies. Although i still agree with my replies, it appeared to me that your main grievance is how we can attack those in leadership in the church and let me tell you, i myself have travelled that road with much grief in my heart.

I don't believe the answer is to attack them, but neither should we let their authority supercede the authority of the Lord in our lives.

If we disagree and don't want to stay within their church, then walk away.

If we do desire to stay, then pray.

This is often how the Holy Spirit leads us, through the love of God, sharing his grievances, joys, and desires in our lives. And He knows where we are all at in our journeys and what we need.

Unfortunately when we see the errors in a church, we can leave and get puffed up in our knowledge, allow bitterness to take hold of us and then look down our noses on the other side and casts our stones at them.

And we can start off well, grieving for what we see. This is a golden opportunity to turn to the Lord and share our pain and grievances with Him and allow Him to birth something beautiful and amazing through us by his Spirit, and it will become a blessing to others too, but that process can be aborted through pride and bitterness.

 

[Jo555]

Yesterday i actually backtracked a bit after my replies. Although i still agree with my replies, it appeared to me that your main grievance is how we can attack those in leadership in the church and let me tell you, i myself have travelled that road with much grief in my heart.

I don't believe the answer is to attack them, but neither should we let their authority supercede the authority of the Lord in our lives.

If we disagree and don't want to stay within their church, then walk away.

If we do desire to stay, then pray.

This is often how the Holy Spirit leads us, through the love of God, sharing his grievances and such.

Unfortunately when we see the errors in a church, we can leave and get puffed up in our knowledge, allow bitterness to take hold of us and then look down our noses on the other side and casts our stones at them.

And we start off well, grieving for what we see. This is a golden opportunity to turn to the Lord and share our pain and grievances with Him and allow Him to birth something beautiful and amazing through us by his Spirit, but that process can be aborted through pride and bitterness.

I also don't believe that if we do see errors, that it doesn't necessarily mean we don't talk about it, but more that we need to ensure we are speaking with the love of God in our hearts, and other fruits of the Spirit.

Unfortunately, there will be those that will take our words and run the wrong way with it. It's one of the reasons I feel strongly about painting an overall picture when speaking regarding those things, because i know how these things can go.

 

[Jo555]

The bible also gives us a framework on how to handle these things. What we also need to remember is we are all learning and growing, even those overseeing flocks. In our relationship with each other, with the same measure we meet, it will be measured unto us. Mercy will be given to those who show mercy.

And we all need to understand how important it is to hear the Holy Spirit for ourselves, especially in our personal lives, so that we are not drinking poisoned Koolaid, and He always leads us through Christ.

But I share your grievance. Lots of crusades being fought that are not of God. It was one of the reasons I took a break from fellowshipping beyond a small group. I just needed a break from all that. Everyone thinking their side was better, but it was more of the same thing with a different disguise.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yesterday i actually backtracked a bit after my replies. Although i still agree with my replies, it appeared to me that your main grievance is how we can attack those in leadership in the church and let me tell you, i myself have travelled that road with much grief in my heart.

I don't believe the answer is to attack them, but neither should we let their authority supercede the authority of the Lord in our lives.

If we disagree and don't want to stay within their church, then walk away.

If we do desire to stay, then pray.

This is often how the Holy Spirit leads us, through the love of God, sharing his grievances, joys, and desires in our lives. And He knows where we are all at in our journeys and what we need.

Unfortunately when we see the errors in a church, we can leave and get puffed up in our knowledge, allow bitterness to take hold of us and then look down our noses on the other side and casts our stones at them.

And we can start off well, grieving for what we see. This is a golden opportunity to turn to the Lord and share our pain and grievances with Him and allow Him to birth something beautiful and amazing through us by his Spirit, and it will become a blessing to others too, but that process can be aborted through pride and bitterness.

I see what you are saying and I feel the pain of that. It is a human invention that there should be over 30,000 denominations. It is not the will of God. The point is that there is one Church
One Lord, One Faith, one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. When we decide to leave an assembly, we are forming a judgment

God loves variety, so we are not single issue one size fits all homogenized Christian. We are one body with many members, but that does not authorize us to split the Body of Our Lord.

Over the centuries, humans made the decision to split the body. It was in their judgement that this was necessary. Modern souls do not bear the same sin as the original schismatics, but we need to take heed.

Christ told us that by the same measure in which we judge others will be used to judge us.
I don’t think we understand how scary that position is: There is no room for error. Even criminals know that if you are going to try to shoot the king, you better not miss.
David knew this when he had Saul in position for a lethal blow. He said, I cannot lift my hand against God’s anointed. Those that killed Saul and reported it to David expecting a reward were executed instead.

Scripture does not say that if we claim Jesus as savior, we can avoid the judgement. That is a human invention and a deception. We will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. He has warned us that He hates willful ignorance and unjust judgement.

Placing judgement on someone or a group is a way of exalting oneself. We know he who exalts himself will be humbled but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Since we know that ahead of time, we are without excuse

I can only testify to you that once I was humiliated and submitted myself to the full authority of His Church, I received the grace of God. The sin that so easily beset me was gone. Not like Luther said as snow covered dung but actually gone. I was not expecting it, so I was amazed and overjoyed when it happened.

Most people will just say, yeah right, I don’t believe that. That is by their free will. I only invite you to self examination. How have you formed your judgments? Are you sure about them? They are how you will be judged. Are you ready?

We cannot say that we love everyone and don’t judge anyone. We have judged some. All of our thoughts and decisions will be reviewed by Our Lord at the judgement. Some say Catholics can be saved, it’s just the institution that is evil. Some say she is the harlot of Babylon or she carries the mark of the beast. Ok, the same reasoning that they used to come to that conclusion will be used as their judgement standard. How do I know? Jesus told us so

They may say that it is based on the Bible. Remember, Satan tried to use the Bible against Jesus and failed miserably. If they want the Bible as the standard, God will grant them their wish, but remember, Jesus is the Word of God and He knows what it means. We need to think with all sincerity and diligence, are we relying on the Bible or someone else’s interpretation of what it says, or what we want it to say?

Don’t stop asking, don’t stop seeking, don’t stop knocking. We need to be convinced in our own mind, but once we stop, the reason for our stop will be the standard of judgment when we appear before the Lord.

I thought I knew the Bible until I was proved wrong by God. I praise Him for His mercy in reproving me here, instead of waiting until I appear before Him

 

[Jo555]

I see what you are saying and I feel the pain of that. It is a human invention that there should be over 30,000 denominations. It is not the will of God. The point is that there is one Church
One Lord, One Faith, one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. When we decide to leave an assembly, we are forming a judgment

God loves variety, so we are not single issue one size fits all homogenized Christian. We are one body with many members, but that does not authorize us to split the Body of Our Lord.

Over the centuries, humans made the decision to split the body. It was in their judgement that this was necessary. Modern souls do not bear the same sin as the original schismatics, but we need to take heed.

Christ told us that by the same measure in which we judge others will be used to judge us.
I don’t think we understand how scary that position is: There is no room for error. Even criminals know that if you are going to try to shoot the king, you better not miss.
David knew this when he had Saul in position for a lethal blow. He said, I cannot lift my hand against God’s anointed. Those that killed Saul and reported it to David expecting a reward were executed instead.

Scripture does not say that if we claim Jesus as savior, we can avoid the judgement. That is a human invention and a deception. We will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ. He has warned us that He hates willful ignorance and unjust judgement.

Placing judgement on someone or a group is a way of exalting oneself. We know he who exalts himself will be humbled but he who humbles himself will be exalted. Since we know that ahead of time, we are without excuse

I can only testify to you that once I was humiliated and submitted myself to the full authority of His Church, I received the grace of God. The sin that so easily beset me was gone. Not like Luther said as snow covered dung but actually gone. I was not expecting it, so I was amazed and overjoyed when it happened.

Most people will just say, yeah right, I don’t believe that. That is by their free will. I only invite you to self examination. How have you formed your judgments? Are you sure about them? They are how you will be judged. Are you ready?

We cannot say that we love everyone and don’t judge anyone. We have judged some. All of our thoughts and decisions will be reviewed by Our Lord at the judgement. Some say Catholics can be saved, it’s just the institution that is evil. Some say she is the harlot of Babylon or she carries the mark of the beast. Ok, the same reasoning that they used to come to that conclusion will be used as their judgement standard. How do I know? Jesus told us so

They may say that it is based on the Bible. Remember, Satan tried to use the Bible against Jesus and failed miserably. If they want the Bible as the standard, God will grant them their wish, but remember, Jesus is the Word of God and He knows what it means. We need to think with all sincerity and diligence, are we relying on the Bible or someone else’s interpretation of what it says, or what we want it to say?

Don’t stop asking, don’t stop seeking, don’t stop knocking. We need to be convinced in our own mind, but once we stop, the reason for our stop will be the standard of judgment when we appear before the Lord.

I thought I knew the Bible until I was proved wrong by God. I praise Him for His mercy in reproving me here, instead of waiting until I appear before Him

I don't believe it is necessarily a judgement in a bad sense to walk away from a church that we feel is not healthy for us and we don't find the desire to stay, but to go.

This is often how the Holy Spirit leads us within. People get sick by placing doctrine over the Holy Spirit's role in our lives. There are times we need to separate, as Saul did when he became Paul, to be taught of the Lord apart from man's influence.

Another will say but scriptures teach you are not supposed to leave the assembly of brethren. Scriptures do not contradict. It is the Holy Spirit who will lead and guide us regarding what He is calling us to do at any given time.

The surface stuff can be changed according to what He is doing in our lives and others. What doesn't change is we are to remain in Christ so his Spirit bears his fruit through us. THAT will never change.

 

[Jo555]

I don't believe it is necessarily a judgement in a bad sense to walk away from a church that we feel is not healthy for us and we don't find the desire to stay, but to go.

This is often how the Holy Spirit leads us within. People get sick by placing doctrine over the Holy Spirit's role in our lives. There are times we need to separate, as Saul did when he became Paul, to be taught of the Lord apart from man's influence.

Another will say but scriptures teach you are not supposed to leave the assembly of brethren. Scriptures do not contradict. It is the Holy Spirit who will lead and guide us regarding what He is calling us to do at any given time.

The surface stuff can be changed according to what He is doing in our lives and others. What doesn't change is we are to remain in Christ so his Spirit bears his fruit through us. THAT will never change.

The simplest way to put it is that it comes down to the heart of the matter, which is the matter of the heart.

And if bitterness, sometimes we still have to walk away from what is influencing bitterness in our hearts, whether the influencer is truly the source, or perceived, until we have grown to be able to overcome in the Lord and his love. However the Lord's Spirit directs us within.

We get sick when we listen to doctrine over the Lord's Spirit in our lives.

 

[The Liturgist]

The canons of Nicea and Ephesus, which you mention, do not deal with the question of autocephalous rule.

They specifically do. Indeed canon 8 specifically rebukes the Patriarch of Antioch for sending bishops to Cyprus in violation of the status of the Cypriot church.

 

[The Liturgist]

I also look for consistency. You say that the Bishop of Rome is first among equals, yet there are many in your Churches that say the Roman pontiff is not even in the Church.

Actually I don’t say that. Right now, the Bishop of Rome is not in the Eastern Orthodox Church, obviously, since the schism in 1054. If he repents, he might be entitled to regain his status as primus inter pares, although I myself believe that as a penance, the Roman church should not immediately regain this status. He might be in the Church in a larger ecumenical sense, but is clearly not primus inter pares in a meaningful way considering the extreme antipathy towards the Papacy as an office by most other Christians including most Orthodox Christians.

I also doubt in the event of a reunification that the Pope would be able to regain that status despite statements to that effect by some Orthodox bishops, particularly since the Patriarchate of Constantinople, which most of the bishops who have made such remarks are members of, no longer enjoys Primus inter Pares status for most Orthodox Christians but instead effectively lost that position by alienating the churches of Antioch, Jerusalem, Serbia, Bulgaria, Georgia and Russia and failing to even recognize the OCA, to the point where several of them refused to attend the synod in Crete in 2016, so that the group of churches that would still regard the Patriarch as Primus inter Pares consists of, I would guess, only Albania, Alexandria, the Church of Greece, the Church of Cyprus and possibly Romania. Of these, the only one that is very large is Romania, with over 30 million members (making them the second largest Orthodox church after the Moscow Patriarchate), and their allegiance is uncertain.

Ironically, much of this happened because the Patriarch of Constantinople refused to adjudicate a dispute under canon 28 of Constantinople between Antioch and Jerusalem. Jerusalem for a time remained with Constantinople but was persuaded by subsequent events not to hold to such a position.

So my view at the moment is that there is no real primus inter pares in a meaningful way, except for a small group of churches in the immediate vicinity of Constantinople.