Who are the People in Revelation?

[eclipsenow]

Again, all that work is for naught, eclipsenow (Mr. Anonymous).

Um - when did it become forum policy that we had to use real names?
Want to count how many people use pseudonyms?
What's that got to do with anything?

Luke 12:42-44 isn’t just about being ready, it’s also about Christ’s return.

The ESV commentators somehow missed your truly astonishing insights there Jerry.
Dude - can you drop it? It's boring. You've said your piece - but it's a parable with a point about how how amazing the Lord is and he is reward enough! Loving him enough to serve him all your life is the message. To even give your life! But Jesus is the reward - not some literal mansion. (Facepalm!) Or - because all these other verses are ALSO about what happens when we meet the Lord - either when he returns like a thief in the night or when we die to meet him. Are we going to get a literal pearl of great value, a real estate investment, a war fund (counting the cost of serving), a literal mansion, a great financial return (seems crude), or are we all going to literally turn into sheep and goats?

See - the parable is about the return of the Lord. It's about doing the right thing until then - and Jesus told the same story a dozen other ways. Are they all literal too?

Hey - I know - why not just ignore this point for the 4th time and rinse and repeat your assertion above as if nothing happened!?

You conveniently leave that out. It’s also about the authority Christ gives the overcomers as “kings and priests” to rule the nations, illustrated in Revelation 2:25-27 and 20:6.

Um - no it doesn't. Show me ONE time where that Greek word for thrones is used of earthly kingdoms in Revelation.

John simply doesn't use it that way.

That’s what connects Luke 12:22-44 with the 1000 years in Revelation 20:6.

That's just sad. I got it the first thousand times you merely asserted it.
(See what I did there with 1000? That's very Hebrew of me.)

One doesn’t have to be a theologian to understand Revelation 20:6 can’t be about this secular age.

You are not.
It is.

Seriously, you do know we live in a secular society, right?

Seriously - you DO KNOW that I agreed with you, right?

It’s this latter part that destroys post and amill. You just don’t get it because you don’t really read.

Oh boy. This age is secular.
Down here. On the earth.
Not 'up there' where the martyred saints are - in the heavenly thrones.

But hey - if you JUST ignore the way John uses thrones EVERY TIME in Revelation - and squint real hard and pretend that Jesus comes back to earth as the SOULS of the dead martyrs come to life and are not touched by the "Second Death" (that weird term for hell that John uses because he's saying the first death still applies!) - and ignore how many times John shows us these scenes of the martyred saints safe in heaven - if we JUST ignore all that - then maybe... nope.

Jesus does not return until the end of chapter 20.
It's clearly in heaven.
It fits with the rest of the New Testament.
It fits with the rest of Revelation.
(PS: In case you missed it - and it should be easy if Premil is true. Just show me how many times John clearly situates the thrones on the earth! You know - in Revelation where he's using that image so consistently!)

Obviously, you didn’t really read the OP. You weren’t even aware I was speaking from a historicist’s perspective, because you don’t know anything about historicism and don’t pay attention.

(Sighs) It was so much off-topic obfuscation and puffery.

Luke is a different person to John. He was recording Jesus parables about staying faithful.

John was writing in apocalyptic symbolism which involves the use of symbols to make theological points. You have to use the symbols in fairly consistent ways or it breaks the meaning. So for Revelation 20 to be about thrones ON THE EARTH (are we getting this?) you have to show that it is credible that John was using the symbol of thrones to MEAN the earth. Not Luke. Not that feeling you get in the middle of the night after a late night kebab. John. He's your man. Thrones. That's your word. Demonstrate to us all how John uses thrones.

THEN - explain why in this passage we don't see the trumpet of the Lord, the Lord touching down on the earth, the Lord ruling the earth, angels, and all the OTHER things I've shown happen when the Lord returns. It's just. Not. There!

THEN - explain why death is defeated when in your strange and unjustified Premil attempt on 1 Corinthians 15 death is defeated when the saints return with Jesus - when the last enemy to be defeated is death AFTER your 1000 year reign! You've not only got Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 15 denying the rest of the NT on Judgement Day - you've got 1 Corinthians 15 contradicting itself!

Finally - drop Luke 12. I've been in quite academic churches for decades and have NEVER heard that weird reading of Luke 12. The ESV scholars didn't pick it. It's inconsistent with how Jesus speaks of the new age and eternity all wrapped up in one. It seems almost ungodly - worrying about how much extra land you'll get to govern if you're 'just good enough'. What is the pearl of great value? A financial reward? No - it's eternity with Jesus. Jesus is our reward - not ruling or mansions or kingdoms or status or thrones. Even though he grants us the status of being priests and princes in his kingdom - that's by grace - and kind of spiritual metaphors for how we are meant to be living now. The actual reward is Jesus - and suggesting anything else is almost blasphemous.

Revelation 20 affirms death is finally cast into the lake of fire at the end of the millennium, when eternity starts, the new heavens and earth. This is what 1 Corinthian 15:24-28 affirms.

Just ignore the rest of the New Testament then! And cherry-pick verses from Revelation, and ignore the thrones, and ignore that Jesus doesn't actually RETURN in the passage, and ignore the specific way Satan is bound, and ignore other New Testament verses that show as the gospel advances, Satan's kingdom is bound and retreats.

Christ’s temporal kingdom commences upon his return, the one that has dominion, authority, rule and power over the nations,

But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation 2:25-27​

Correct. And who is he that overcomes to John? Oh yeah, martyrs. The dead saints. The ones we see asking "how long oh Lord" and praising God and getting white stones with secret names etc. They hang out with the 24 thrones - symbolising the best leadership of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The MARTYRS overcome. Dead people! That hang out with the thrones of heaven - exactly as I said in Revelation 20.

THEN when the dead ARE all raised and the great book opened and judgement day comes and there's a new heaven and new earth (all consistent with all the OTHER NT verses you studiously avoid!) - THEN we see what this reigning over the earth thing is all about.

The New Jerusalem comes down. And look! The authority of the 24 elders is now symbolised and incorporated into the very gates of the city and the foundations of the city.

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

And look what this city is doing! It's reigning! The city is enormous - roughly the size of the known ancient world. And it reigns! The kings and nations serve it!

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

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To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21​

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Yep. Got it. Now show me where the Father's throne is on the earth??

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:31-33​

Sorry Jerry. That verse is mine, not yours.

It fits perfectly with Amillennialism because WE'RE the ones saying that the Great White Throne of judgement is on Judgement Day, which is at the end of this world, at the end of this age, at the end of this universe, and the END OF CHAPTER 20! You want it to be at the start of Chapter 20 when the SOULS of the martyrs rise to life? Where does it say Jesus returns Jerry? At the end of Chapter 20.

Look how similar these verses are!

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

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[Jerryhuerta]

Um - when did it become forum policy that we had to use real names?
Want to count how many people use pseudonyms?
What's that got to do with anything?

The ESV commentators somehow missed your truly astonishing insights there Jerry.
Dude - can you drop it? It's boring. You've said your piece - but it's a parable with a point about how how amazing the Lord is and he is reward enough! Loving him enough to serve him all your life is the message. To even give your life! But Jesus is the reward - not some literal mansion. (Facepalm!) Or - because all these other verses are ALSO about what happens when we meet the Lord - either when he returns like a thief in the night or when we die to meet him. Are we going to get a literal pearl of great value, a real estate investment, a war fund (counting the cost of serving), a literal mansion, a great financial return (seems crude), or are we all going to literally turn into sheep and goats?

See - the parable is about the return of the Lord. It's about doing the right thing until then - and Jesus told the same story a dozen other ways. Are they all literal too?

Hey - I know - why not just ignore this point for the 4th time and rinse and repeat your assertion above as if nothing happened!?

Um - no it doesn't. Show me ONE time where that Greek word for thrones is used of earthly kingdoms in Revelation.

John simply doesn't use it that way.


That's just sad. I got it the first thousand times you merely asserted it.
(See what I did there with 1000? That's very Hebrew of me.)

You are not.
It is.


Seriously - you DO KNOW that I agreed with you, right?


Oh boy. This age is secular.
Down here. On the earth.
Not 'up there' where the martyred saints are - in the heavenly thrones.

But hey - if you JUST ignore the way John uses thrones EVERY TIME in Revelation - and squint real hard and pretend that Jesus comes back to earth as the SOULS of the dead martyrs come to life and are not touched by the "Second Death" (that weird term for hell that John uses because he's saying the first death still applies!) - and ignore how many times John shows us these scenes of the martyred saints safe in heaven - if we JUST ignore all that - then maybe... nope.

Jesus does not return until the end of chapter 20.
It's clearly in heaven.
It fits with the rest of the New Testament.
It fits with the rest of Revelation.
(PS: In case you missed it - and it should be easy if Premil is true. Just show me how many times John clearly situates the thrones on the earth! You know - in Revelation where he's using that image so consistently!)



(Sighs) It was so much off-topic obfuscation and puffery.

Luke is a different person to John. He was recording Jesus parables about staying faithful.

John was writing in apocalyptic symbolism which involves the use of symbols to make theological points. You have to use the symbols in fairly consistent ways or it breaks the meaning. So for Revelation 20 to be about thrones ON THE EARTH (are we getting this?) you have to show that it is credible that John was using the symbol of thrones to MEAN the earth. Not Luke. Not that feeling you get in the middle of the night after a late night kebab. John. He's your man. Thrones. That's your word. Demonstrate to us all how John uses thrones.

THEN - explain why in this passage we don't see the trumpet of the Lord, the Lord touching down on the earth, the Lord ruling the earth, angels, and all the OTHER things I've shown happen when the Lord returns. It's just. Not. There!

THEN - explain why death is defeated when in your strange and unjustified Premil attempt on 1 Corinthians 15 death is defeated when the saints return with Jesus - when the last enemy to be defeated is death AFTER your 1000 year reign! You've not only got Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 15 denying the rest of the NT on Judgement Day - you've got 1 Corinthians 15 contradicting itself!

Finally - drop Luke 12. I've been in quite academic churches for decades and have NEVER heard that weird reading of Luke 12. The ESV scholars didn't pick it. It's inconsistent with how Jesus speaks of the new age and eternity all wrapped up in one. It seems almost ungodly - worrying about how much extra land you'll get to govern if you're 'just good enough'. What is the pearl of great value? A financial reward? No - it's eternity with Jesus. Jesus is our reward - not ruling or mansions or kingdoms or status or thrones. Even though he grants us the status of being priests and princes in his kingdom - that's by grace - and kind of spiritual metaphors for how we are meant to be living now. The actual reward is Jesus - and suggesting anything else is almost blasphemous.



Just ignore the rest of the New Testament then! And cherry-pick verses from Revelation, and ignore the thrones, and ignore that Jesus doesn't actually RETURN in the passage, and ignore the specific way Satan is bound, and ignore other New Testament verses that show as the gospel advances, Satan's kingdom is bound and retreats.



Correct. And who is he that overcomes to John? Oh yeah, martyrs. The dead saints. The ones we see asking "how long oh Lord" and praising God and getting white stones with secret names etc. They hang out with the 24 thrones - symbolising the best leadership of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The MARTYRS overcome. Dead people! That hang out with the thrones of heaven - exactly as I said in Revelation 20.

THEN when the dead ARE all raised and the great book opened and judgement day comes and there's a new heaven and new earth (all consistent with all the OTHER NT verses you studiously avoid!) - THEN we see what this reigning over the earth thing is all about.

The New Jerusalem comes down. And look! The authority of the 24 elders is now symbolised and incorporated into the very gates of the city and the foundations of the city.

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

And look what this city is doing! It's reigning! The city is enormous - roughly the size of the known ancient world. And it reigns! The kings and nations serve it!

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.​

Yep. Got it. Now show me where the Father's throne is on the earth??



Sorry Jerry. That verse is mine, not yours.

It fits perfectly with Amillennialism because WE'RE the ones saying that the Great White Throne of judgement is on Judgement Day, which is at the end of this world, at the end of this age, at the end of this universe, and the END OF CHAPTER 20! You want it to be at the start of Chapter 20 when the SOULS of the martyrs rise to life? Where does it say Jesus returns Jerry? At the end of Chapter 20.

Look how similar these verses are!

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.​

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I just think that if you want to be familiar with someone, like addressing me by my first name and not “sir”, you should be gracious enough to extend your name. Such one-sided familiarity is rude and presumptuous, Mr. Anonymous.

You think I should drop it, that I’m boring you. But you’re a guest on my thread, not the other way around. If you don’t like what I say on MY thread, leave and make your own. I don’t have to be quiet on MY thread to please you. How presumptuous and lacking in grace!

It’s disingenuous when you state, Revelation 2:25-27 and 20:6 doesn’t use the Greek word for “throne” once. Why do the passages have to use the word “throne” to make the case that the saints must overcome in this age to have the right to authority, power, and jurisdiction when Christ returns? Revelation 2:26 say the saints that overcome are given “power over the nations” when Christ returns. The Geek word for power here is “exousian,” which means, “authority, power, right, jurisdiction.” Look it up in the lexicons and learn!

Obviously, for those with eyes that see and ears that listen, it means the overcomers will have a jurisdiction, authority and rights they don’t have in this age, and on earth, not in heaven,

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5​

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And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9-10​

Consequently, Christ “grants” power, authority and rule to the saints that overcome when he returns, instead of putting “down all rule and all authority and power,” which happens in “the end,” according to 1 Corinthians 15:24. The end in Corinthians represent the new heavens and earth; Christ’s return represents the establishment of power, authority and rule, which can’t be rightly interpreted as “the end.”

Again, Revelation 2:26 establishes that Christ “grants” power, authority and rule to the saints that overcome when he returns, instead of putting “down all rule and all authority and power,” which post and amill erroneously assert. The “end” doesn’t happen when Christ returns.

And we can’t suppress or try to hide, like post and amill does, the NT use of the Greek word “kuros” in Luke, which also means “authority, power, right and jurisdiction,”

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Luke 12:42​

The word “ruler” in the passage above come from the Greek word “kuros,” which means “authority, power, right and jurisdiction.” Again, Luke 12:42 establishes that Christ “grants” power, authority and rule to the saints that overcome when he returns, instead of putting “down all rule and all authority and power,” which post and amill erroneously assert.

Luke also affirms this in The Parable of the Minas,

And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:17​

The Greek word translated into authority is “exousian,” which I already showed you means, power, right and jurisdiction. Again, Luke 19:17 establishes that Christ “grants” power, authority and rule to the saints that overcome when he returns, instead of putting “down all rule and all authority and power,” which post and amill erroneously assert.

Keep it up and I’ll give you an education on the meaning of ecclesiocracy, which will educate you on what a secular society means.

 

[eclipsenow]

< Massive diversion > "Sir"? This is the internet. I'm Australian. We have this thing called tall poppies syndrome in our culture. You trying 'spank' me online for not addressing you as sir is one of the funniest, most absurd things I've seen in forum behaviour in months - maybe a year or so! < / Massive diversion >

* Of course the Greek words in the parable mean mansions and rule and authority and master and lamps and sheep and goats. All the original words that we translated into English. I'm not saying we somehow have the individual words wrong - but that you have the meaning of the parable wrong. You can't see the forest for the individual trees - or words in this case.

* What powers is Jesus abolishing when he returns? Aren't they all the evil ones? Read Jesus and the powers by Tom Wright or try this episode of Undeceptions - the world's best apologetics podcast.

* How do you reconcile those verses, read your way, with the fact that we are NOW kings and priests in God's kingdom - in eschatological tension?

* How does it disprove Revelation 21 - that the New Jerusalem will reign over the whole world with kings and nations serving it - and the security of it is in the truths laid down by the 12 Tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles - as explained in the metaphor of their names being over the gates and on the '12 foundations'.

* You have not answered Where does Jesus return on your precious Millennium in Rev 20? I've read it about 1000 times (see what I did there?) and it's at the end of the 1000 years - not the beginning. At no point in the millennium passage does it mention Jesus returning to the earth, or Judgement Day (as the rest of the NT does when Jesus returns).

* You have not addressed the fact that every time thrones are referred to in Revelation - they are in HEAVEN - not on the earth!

* You have not explained why John says he saw the SOULS come alive - and this weird phrase "the second death" instead of hell?

* You have not reconciled all the Judgement Day verses I have quoted. You close your eyes and plug your ears.

* We have not even really gone through all the "2 Ages" verses that show a Millennium hybrid age just doesn't fit with the "2 Ages" model - as developed by a careful reading of all the NT verses that describe the difference between THIS age - and the ONE AGE to come - which is paradise / the NHNE.

Conclusion: You have a lot of work to do - but are wasting time trying to defend a distorted reading of a rather obvious parable.
In other words - to me at least - you seem to be cherry-picking obscure verses to SHOVE OVER all the more obvious, pertinent verses. I'm not sure why you are doing this?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

< Massive diversion > "Sir"? This is the internet. I'm Australian. We have this thing called tall poppies syndrome in our culture. You trying 'spank' me online for not addressing you as sir is one of the funniest, most absurd things I've seen in forum behaviour in months - maybe a year or so! < / Massive diversion >

* Of course the Greek words in the parable mean mansions and rule and authority and master and lamps and sheep and goats. All the original words that we translated into English. I'm not saying we somehow have the individual words wrong - but that you have the meaning of the parable wrong. You can't see the forest for the individual trees - or words in this case.

* What powers is Jesus abolishing when he returns? Aren't they all the evil ones? Read Jesus and the powers by Tom Wright or try this episode of Undeceptions - the world's best apologetics podcast.

* How do you reconcile those verses, read your way, with the fact that we are NOW kings and priests in God's kingdom - in eschatological tension?

* How does it disprove Revelation 21 - that the New Jerusalem will reign over the whole world with kings and nations serving it - and the security of it is in the truths laid down by the 12 Tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles - as explained in the metaphor of their names being over the gates and on the '12 foundations'.

* You have not answered Where does Jesus return on your precious Millennium in Rev 20? I've read it about 1000 times (see what I did there?) and it's at the end of the 1000 years - not the beginning. At no point in the millennium passage does it mention Jesus returning to the earth, or Judgement Day (as the rest of the NT does when Jesus returns).

* You have not addressed the fact that every time thrones are referred to in Revelation - they are in HEAVEN - not on the earth!

* You have not explained why John says he saw the SOULS come alive - and this weird phrase "the second death" instead of hell?

* You have not reconciled all the Judgement Day verses I have quoted. You close your eyes and plug your ears.

* We have not even really gone through all the "2 Ages" verses that show a Millennium hybrid age just doesn't fit with the "2 Ages" model - as developed by a careful reading of all the NT verses that describe the difference between THIS age - and the ONE AGE to come - which is paradise / the NHNE.

Conclusion: You have a lot of work to do - but are wasting time trying to defend a distorted reading of a rather obvious parable.
In other words - to me at least - you seem to be cherry-picking obscure verses to SHOVE OVER all the more obvious, pertinent verses. I'm not sure why you are doing this?

You’re the one that got all bent out of shape when I addressed you as Mr. Anonymous. If that upsets you, then I’m not the one with the narcissistic problem.

As for narcissism, your attitude that “one day you're going to wake up and realize” I’m wrong and you were right sounds pretty narcissistic. Like when I read something I have to ask you or NT Wright what it means. I read in the Bible I’m supposed to go ultimately to God for understanding, not you or NT Wright.

And you’re the one that brought up the meaning of the words in the passages in contention, and I merely showed you what they mean, which destroys the post and amill deceptions.

Like I said, 1 Corinthians 15 affirms that the end, the new heavens and earth, comes when Christ puts “down all rule and all authority and power,” which doesn’t happen when Christ returns according to all those passages in the NT that upset you.

According to the NT, when Christ returns, he “grants” power, authority, and rule to the saints that overcome, which destroys the post and amill deceptions. He doesn’t remove it but establishes rule, power, and authority. That's premillennialism, which affirms Revelation 19-20, is in chronological order.

With such understanding, all the passages that you address are interpreted to conform to premillennialism. But since you can't overcome the implications of my passages, I see no need to address yours. I'm a fan of economy and don't think lengthy responses are fruitful. I like to get to the crux of the matter that ends the debate.

 

[Zceptre]

Just wondering...

Why can't we all just get along?

John 13:34
1 Timothy 1:5
1 Corinthians 13:4

Disagree with a laugh or two.

Also, for the discussion...

Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:18

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Just wondering...

Why can't we all just get along?

John 13:34
1 Timothy 1:5
1 Corinthians 13:4

Disagree with a laugh or two.

Also, for the discussion...

Revelation 5:10
Daniel 7:18

Yes, why can't we?

 

[eclipsenow]

You’re the one that got all bent out of shape

Jerry, I just asked a few questions about calling me Mr Anonymous in 2 posts? It's been years since I debated someone that got so frustrated they had a go at my callsign. (The previous girl was creative though. She hated my Amillennialism so much she said it was fitting I called myself Eclipse because it meant something that casts a whole planet into darkness! I chose it for my greenie blog years ago because it also represents the opposite - either a time of darkness - or we can so 'eclipse ourselves' and our previous way of life, energy systems, and general ignorance - that it is like the old culture was bound in darkness. But that's a whole other topic.)

As for narcissism, your attitude that “one day you're going to wake up and realize” I’m wrong and you were right sounds pretty narcissistic.

Jerry, I do apologise. You must have read the email version. I'm sorry. As you can see, I went back later and edited the post. Also - I said I don't know you in the real world and that it sounded to me a bit that way - but even then I realised it was probably a cultural thing and deleted all that and just said how absurd it sounded to an Australian.

Again - I don't know you in the real world - and am aware that internet dialogues so quickly escalate. Sarcasm and mocking are the lowest form of wit - therefore I fall into it sometimes when tired or frustrated. So - I did not call you that - just said how it sounded to me. But then a previous boss I worked with was a narcissist (that was a traumatic decade!) and I'm also nervous about the Malignant Narcissist-in-Chief that was just sworn in to the White House and is already recommending ethnic cleansing in Gaza - so that's probably dialling me up to see it everywhere! Please forget it said it.

So just to make it official - I'll apologise a third time. It also makes it quite Hebrew - because when they really meant it - it got said a third time! EG: "Holy, Holy, Holy". But my version is "Sorry, sorry, sorry!" I hope we can put this aside?

Like when I read something I have to ask you or NT Wright what it means. I read in the Bible I’m supposed to go ultimately to God for understanding, not you or NT Wright.

As a 4 sola's guy, I totally hear you that the ultimate authority are the scriptures themselves - at least for us to come to a firm understanding of how to be saved and live to please God. There's also the idea of the "Perspicuity of Scripture" - that it is plain on these core matters. But some other matters are harder. That's where I am prepared to listen to those who understand hermeneutics, the science and art of studying the ancient history and audience and other texts of the time to gain a better understanding of what the message even meant to the ancient audience in the first place - before applying it to us. For sure - I am always primed to be questioning what 'authorities' I listen to. The bible comes first! If I read anything in the bible that makes me question what these experts I read say - boom! I'll be asking.

But your arguments rely on a rather distorted reading of 1 Corinthians 15, a literalistic reading of Revelation 20 that ignores the hermeneutics and basic use of thrones throughout the same book, a REALLY odd reading of the parable of the talents, and basically ignoring all the other verses about the 2 Ages and the Return of Christ on Judgement Day to raise the dead and bring the renewal of all things in a NHNE.

I'll have to read more about the rule of the saints in the next age at some point - as that does seem to be a concern for you. But right now? Something we haven't really covered in much depth. How would a hypothetical Millennium fit with what the NT says about this age and the age to come?

Kim Riddlebarger explains it well. Basically, there is NOW and then there is THEN - there is no 'in-between'. Over to Kim Riddlebarger:-

—-
If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the “weirder,” tougher passages. One such approach is known as the “two-age” model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of “this age” and the “age to come” as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph 1:21). For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as “this age” in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ. The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as “the age to come.” When these two ages (“this age” and “the age to come”) are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the Biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to “this age” by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: “homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.
By marked contrast however, “the age to come” has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ. This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture. “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous” (Mt. 13:39-49). These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ’s return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the two-age model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age. In addition, Jesus also proclaims that “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the “last day” and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that “this age” — the period of time Peter calls the “last days” (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13) — ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the “last day.” An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the “day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare” (2 Pet 3:10). It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality. Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth (i.e., a future millennium).

Instead, the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth! The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy. For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!
Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straightforward. This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament’s teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the so-called “millennial age.”
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, I just asked a few questions about calling me Mr Anonymous in 2 posts? It's been years since I debated someone that got so frustrated they had a go at my callsign. (The previous girl was creative though. She hated my Amillennialism so much she said it was fitting I called myself Eclipse because it meant something that casts a whole planet into darkness! I chose it for my greenie blog years ago because it also represents the opposite - either a time of darkness - or we can so 'eclipse ourselves' and our previous way of life, energy systems, and general ignorance - that it is like the old culture was bound in darkness. But that's a whole other topic.)

Jerry, I do apologise. You must have read the email version. I'm sorry. As you can see, I went back later and edited the post. Also - I said I don't know you in the real world and that it sounded to me a bit that way - but even then I realised it was probably a cultural thing and deleted all that and just said how absurd it sounded to an Australian.

Again - I don't know you in the real world - and am aware that internet dialogues so quickly escalate. Sarcasm and mocking are the lowest form of wit - therefore I fall into it sometimes when tired or frustrated. So - I did not call you that - just said how it sounded to me. But then a previous boss I worked with was a narcissist (that was a traumatic decade!) and I'm also nervous about the Malignant Narcissist-in-Chief that was just sworn in to the White House and is already recommending ethnic cleansing in Gaza - so that's probably dialling me up to see it everywhere! Please forget it said it.

So just to make it official - I'll apologise a third time. It also makes it quite Hebrew - because when they really meant it - it got said a third time! EG: "Holy, Holy, Holy". But my version is "Sorry, sorry, sorry!" I hope we can put this aside?


As a 4 sola's guy, I totally hear you that the ultimate authority are the scriptures themselves - at least for us to come to a firm understanding of how to be saved and live to please God. There's also the idea of the "Perspicuity of Scripture" - that it is plain on these core matters. But some other matters are harder. That's where I am prepared to listen to those who understand hermeneutics, the science and art of studying the ancient history and audience and other texts of the time to gain a better understanding of what the message even meant to the ancient audience in the first place - before applying it to us. For sure - I am always primed to be questioning what 'authorities' I listen to. The bible comes first! If I read anything in the bible that makes me question what these experts I read say - boom! I'll be asking.

But your arguments rely on a rather distorted reading of 1 Corinthians 15, a literalistic reading of Revelation 20 that ignores the hermeneutics and basic use of thrones throughout the same book, a REALLY odd reading of the parable of the talents, and basically ignoring all the other verses about the 2 Ages and the Return of Christ on Judgement Day to raise the dead and bring the renewal of all things in a NHNE.

I'll have to read more about the rule of the saints in the next age at some point - as that does seem to be a concern for you. But right now? Something we haven't really covered in much depth. How would a hypothetical Millennium fit with what the NT says about this age and the age to come?

Kim Riddlebarger explains it well. Basically, there is NOW and then there is THEN - there is no 'in-between'. Over to Kim Riddlebarger:-

—-
If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the “weirder,” tougher passages. One such approach is known as the “two-age” model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of “this age” and the “age to come” as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph 1:21). For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as “this age” in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ. The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as “the age to come.” When these two ages (“this age” and “the age to come”) are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the Biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to “this age” by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: “homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.
By marked contrast however, “the age to come” has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ. This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture. “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous” (Mt. 13:39-49). These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ’s return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the two-age model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age. In addition, Jesus also proclaims that “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the “last day” and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that “this age” — the period of time Peter calls the “last days” (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13) — ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the “last day.” An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the “day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare” (2 Pet 3:10). It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality. Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth (i.e., a future millennium).

Instead, the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth! The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy. For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!
Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straightforward. This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament’s teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the so-called “millennial age.”
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

Apology accepted.

First of all, the two-age model is a misnomer. If we enter eternity when Christ returns there’s but one age, this one, not another age. Technically, eternity is ageless, it doesn’t end.

As I stated in my last response, it’s not I failing to grasp 1 Corinthians 15; it’s post and amill that fails. Corinthians states that Christ returns, and the saints are resurrected and,

then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24 NASB​

Again, as I previously stated, the end here is the eternal state, the new heavens and earth, and it says Christ “abolishes all rule and all authority and power” entering that state. And the passage goes on to state again that the end does not happen until Christ reigns first,

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 NASB​

The passage says that Christ must reign, and by reign it means rule, authority and power, which he “abolishes” to render the kingdom to the Father and the end,

For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 27-28 NASB​

Christ must rule in authority and power before the end comes, but post and amill neglect the NT evidence that when Christ returns, he establishes rule, authority and power with the saints that overcome (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47, 25:31-33; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21). Again, however one wants to paint a spiritual reign of Christ in this age, the NT states that when Christ returns he establishes one that is greater before he abolishes “all rule and all authority and power” to enter the eternal state. That’s premillennialism, another age to come before we enter eternity.

Of course, this is confirmed by the law,

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Hebrews 10:1 NASB​

The law the passage is addressing is the ceremonial law that foreshadowed the age of Sukkot, Tabernacles, when Christ returns. In Zechariah 14 judgment day, the fulfillment of the autumnal festivals, is depicted, when Christ returns “and all the holy ones with Him,” and then “the LORD will be king over all the earth” (Zechariah 14:5, 9 NASB).

It continues and says, “that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths” (verse 16 NASB). The next age is the antitype of Sukkot, the Feast of the Booths, Tabernacles. And when the age of Tabernacles ends, then the final rebellion occurs depicted in Ezekiel 38-39, which parallels Revelation 20, the God and Magog phenomenon. In order to interpret Revelation 19-20 properly one must have a command of the OT prophecies that conformed to the Hebraic cultic calendar, the plan of salvation. I will say that neither dispensationalist futurism, post or amill are able to properly interpret Revelation because they fail to adhere to the law,

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 NASB​

There’s no problem reconciling the resurrection of life at the “last day” of this age (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24), and the resurrection of damnation at the “last day” of the age of the Booths (John 12:48), in accord with Revelation 20.

Every issue that Riddlebarger believes exposes premillennialism is addressed by properly interpreting both Testaments, not just the one that conforms to his improper presuppositions.

 

[eclipsenow]

Apology accepted.

Thank you - I mean that.

First of all, the two-age model is a misnomer. If we enter eternity when Christ returns there’s but one age, this one, not another age. Technically, eternity is ageless, it doesn’t end.

You make a good theological point here about the nature of eternity and the NHNE - but it's not that pertinent to this discussion.

The main point? The NT generally speaks of this age and the age to come. Not the ages to come - the age.

So there's now, then there's eternity.

Again, as I previously stated, the end here is the eternal state, the new heavens and earth, and it says Christ “abolishes all rule and all authority and power” entering that state. And the passage goes on to state again that the end does not happen until Christ reigns first,

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 NASB​

Death is defeated when Christ return, not after he returns. How many times are we going to do this dance?

1 Cor 15:50​

“I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”​

Parousia - look at all the things Paul himself associates with this one word.

• 1 Corinthians 15:23: "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming (parousia) those who belong to him."
• 1 Thessalonians 2:19: "For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming (parousia)? Is it not you?"
• 1 Thessalonians 3:13: "So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus with all his saints."
• 1 Thessalonians 4:15: "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."
• 1 Thessalonians 5:23: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ."
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1: "Now concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him."

he passage says that Christ must reign, and by reign it means rule, authority and power, which he “abolishes” to render the kingdom to the Father and the end,

JESUS REIGNS NOW
First note that the gospel word often translated as the 'kingdom of God' should really be 'kingship' or 'kingly rule'. (Alister McGrath). There's a strong sense of Inaugurated Theology in that. Its not a geopolitical KINGDOM Jesus is talking about - but a spiritual kingship. Then the rest of the New Testament confirms this 'now but not yet' kingship of God as:-
* All authority HAS been given to Jesus - therefore go make disciples. Matthew 28:18 Not WILL be - has been.
* Jesus kingdom is 'not of this world' but about everyone who listens to the truth. John 18:36-37
* He is exalted to the highest place. Philippians 2:9
* this means he IS ALREADY the "head over every power and authority". Colossians 2:10
* HE IS NOW the "ruler of the kings of the earth." Revelation 1:5

Seeing as Jesus reigns now - is there a way to reconcile what 1 Corinthians 15:25 is saying?

"25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."​

Does it require a future Millennial age?

GOSPEL PREACHING IS THE WAY JESUS BINDS SATAN'S KINGDOM AND DEFEATS HIS ENEMIES

Not at all! Jesus is reigning now - and as we preach his word BECAUSE all authority has ALREADY been given to him, Jesus wants us to continue with the "Great Commission" and get busy preaching his gospel. This is what defeats Satan's kingdom and binds it!

Luke 10:17-18

The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

As the website Monergism puts it:-

Another passage which relates the restriction of Satan's activities to Christ's missionary outreach is John 12:31-32: "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." It is interesting to note that the verb translated "cast out" (ekball) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3, "and threw (ball) him [Satan] into the pit." Even more important, however, is the observation that Satan's being "cast out" is here associated with the fact that not only Jews but men of all nationalities shall be drawn to Christ as he hangs on the cross.

The binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3, therefore, means that throughout the gospel age in which we now live the influence of Satan, though certainly not annihilated, is so curtailed that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to the nations of the world. Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.”
The Millennium of Revelation 20 | Monergism

But could 1 Cor 15 be talking about some hypothetical in-between age - a millennium before eternity? It MUST be about him reigning now as we preach the gospel, binding Satan's kingdom and extending God's reign on the earth.
For 2 reasons, those who have fallen asleep, and the 'man of lawlessness'

FALLEN ASLEEP

Paul is mainly answering the Corinthian's concerns about their dead loved ones. There is a strong sense he is talking about death from the perspective of being stuck in this age until the eternal things happen.

The subject is death and when it ends.
Adam brought it, Christ ends it.
Christ rose and reigns now.
But at his parousia - death is defeated because he brings their dead loved ones back with him!
"When he comes, those who belong to him!"
Christ's resurrection are the first fruits we can see in this age.
But in the age to come at the parousia, that's when we see Christian brothers and sisters that have 'fallen asleep'.

1 Cor 15: 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.​

See - that's the end! Jesus returns, the dead are raised, the end!
Paul explains more about this transition. Some of us are going to be alive - and not asleep like the Corinthian loved ones. The moment the dead are raised we are all changed and ETERNITY STARST! The Last Trumpet! In a flash!

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

No where does any NT apostle or disciple speak of 'resurrections'. There's only one. That's why John says the SOULS of those in heaven 'came alive' and were not harmed by the 'second death' - because they ARE still affected by the 'first death' - but they are safe with Jesus before the thrones of heaven that we see so much in Revelation (and never on the earth!)

Or as Paul says again in 1 THESSALONIANS 4 & 5

“...For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dead in Christ return with him, trumpet, archangel, like a thief, destruction, salvation! Which sounds a lot like...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:4
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Return, destruction, punishment, everlasting.

Notice the theme? When the Lord returns - it's eternity! Not 1000 years. Not this world. Eternity. Immortality. Death defeated. The dead raised. Judgement Day.

Matthew 13:39 - “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”


MAN OF LAWLESSNESS DESTROYED AT THE PAROUSIA

2 Thessalonians 2:8: "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (parousia)."

What? Jesus returns and it's judgement day for the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS or false prophet in Revelation 20? That sounds like the END of Revelation 20 - not the start?

Christ must rule in authority and power before the end comes, but post and amill neglect the NT evidence that when Christ returns, he establishes rule, authority and power with the saints that overcome (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21). Again, however one wants to paint a spiritual reign of Christ in this age, the NT states that when Christ returns he establishes one that is greater before he abolishes “all rule and all authority and power” to enter the eternal state. That’s premillennialism, another age to come before we enter eternity.

I must say, Matthew 19 verse is a better attempt at your position than the others which I have already addressed. The parables about gospel work being rewarded 100 fold are parables about relationship with Jesus the king being worth it. They're not explanations of a hypothetical third age.

Matt 19​

​

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.​

The 12 thrones is interesting! But look at the rest? Eternal life? This is about heaven - and follows straight on from the rich young ruler asking about the law, and eternal life, and Jesus saying store treasure in heaven. Where is all this? "Heaven" - eternal life - the kingdom of heaven. Which actually as the New Testament unfolds ends up being in the NHNE.

Also, the 'renewable of all things' sounds a lot like 2 Peter 3!

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

I hope you will address all the verses that support the 2 Ages model soon.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Thank you - I mean that.


You make a good theological point here about the nature of eternity and the NHNE - but it's not that pertinent to this discussion.

The main point? The NT generally speaks of this age and the age to come. Not the ages to come - the age.

So there's now, then there's eternity.


Death is defeated when Christ return, not after he returns. How many times are we going to do this dance?

1 Cor 15:50​

“I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”​

Parousia - look at all the things Paul himself associates with this one word.

• 1 Corinthians 15:23: "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming (parousia) those who belong to him."
• 1 Thessalonians 2:19: "For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming (parousia)? Is it not you?"
• 1 Thessalonians 3:13: "So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus with all his saints."
• 1 Thessalonians 4:15: "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep."
• 1 Thessalonians 5:23: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ."
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1: "Now concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him."

JESUS REIGNS NOW
First note that the gospel word often translated as the 'kingdom of God' should really be 'kingship' or 'kingly rule'. (Alister McGrath). There's a strong sense of Inaugurated Theology in that. Its not a geopolitical KINGDOM Jesus is talking about - but a spiritual kingship. Then the rest of the New Testament confirms this 'now but not yet' kingship of God as:-
* All authority HAS been given to Jesus - therefore go make disciples. Matthew 28:18 Not WILL be - has been.
* Jesus kingdom is 'not of this world' but about everyone who listens to the truth. John 18:36-37
* He is exalted to the highest place. Philippians 2:9
* this means he IS ALREADY the "head over every power and authority". Colossians 2:10
* HE IS NOW the "ruler of the kings of the earth." Revelation 1:5

Seeing as Jesus reigns now - is there a way to reconcile what 1 Corinthians 15:25 is saying?

"25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."​

Does it require a future Millennial age?

GOSPEL PREACHING IS THE WAY JESUS BINDS SATAN'S KINGDOM AND DEFEATS HIS ENEMIES

Not at all! Jesus is reigning now - and as we preach his word BECAUSE all authority has ALREADY been given to him, Jesus wants us to continue with the "Great Commission" and get busy preaching his gospel. This is what defeats Satan's kingdom and binds it!



As the website Monergism puts it:-



But could 1 Cor 15 be talking about some hypothetical in-between age - a millennium before eternity? It MUST be about him reigning now as we preach the gospel, binding Satan's kingdom and extending God's reign on the earth.
For 2 reasons, those who have fallen asleep, and the 'man of lawlessness'

FALLEN ASLEEP

Paul is mainly answering the Corinthian's concerns about their dead loved ones. There is a strong sense he is talking about death from the perspective of being stuck in this age until the eternal things happen.

The subject is death and when it ends.
Adam brought it, Christ ends it.
Christ rose and reigns now.
But at his parousia - death is defeated because he brings their dead loved ones back with him!
"When he comes, those who belong to him!"
Christ's resurrection are the first fruits we can see in this age.
But in the age to come at the parousia, that's when we see Christian brothers and sisters that have 'fallen asleep'.

1 Cor 15: 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.​

See - that's the end! Jesus returns, the dead are raised, the end!
Paul explains more about this transition. Some of us are going to be alive - and not asleep like the Corinthian loved ones. The moment the dead are raised we are all changed and ETERNITY STARST! The Last Trumpet! In a flash!



No where does any NT apostle or disciple speak of 'resurrections'. There's only one. That's why John says the SOULS of those in heaven 'came alive' and were not harmed by the 'second death' - because they ARE still affected by the 'first death' - but they are safe with Jesus before the thrones of heaven that we see so much in Revelation (and never on the earth!)

Or as Paul says again in 1 THESSALONIANS 4 & 5

“...For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dead in Christ return with him, trumpet, archangel, like a thief, destruction, salvation! Which sounds a lot like...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:4
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Return, destruction, punishment, everlasting.

Notice the theme? When the Lord returns - it's eternity! Not 1000 years. Not this world. Eternity. Immortality. Death defeated. The dead raised. Judgement Day.

Matthew 13:39 - “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”


MAN OF LAWLESSNESS DESTROYED AT THE PAROUSIA

2 Thessalonians 2:8: "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (parousia)."

What? Jesus returns and it's judgement day for the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS or false prophet in Revelation 20? That sounds like the END of Revelation 20 - not the start?




I must say, Matthew 19 verse is a better attempt at your position than the others which I have already addressed. The parables about gospel work being rewarded 100 fold are parables about relationship with Jesus the king being worth it. They're not explanations of a hypothetical third age.



The 12 thrones is interesting! But look at the rest? Eternal life? This is about heaven - and follows straight on from the rich young ruler asking about the law, and eternal life, and Jesus saying store treasure in heaven. Where is all this? "Heaven" - eternal life - the kingdom of heaven. Which actually as the New Testament unfolds ends up being in the NHNE.

Also, the 'renewable of all things' sounds a lot like 2 Peter 3!




I hope you will address all the verses that support the 2 Ages model soon.

Let me tell you Mr., I don’t care being told: “How many times are we going to do this dance?” as if you were talking to a child. No one is forcing you to post here with such condescending comments and I’ll correct you as many times as you fail to grasp 1 Corinthians 15. Again, Christ must reign before death is destroyed,

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 NASB​

The NT affirms Christ rewards the saints with rule, power and authority to rule with him when he returns (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21).

It’s all about that “not yet” thing amills pay lip service to; they conveniently try and circumvent the “not yet!” Christ is "not yet" ruling in the consummate sense, by your own doctrine. By your own lip service Christ’s consummate rule comes in the age to come, which means the end doesn’t come when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15 states we don’t enter the eternal state until Christ “abolishes” rule, power and authority and the NT affirms Christ rules with the saints in power and authority when he returns. Post and amill are undone by 1 Corinthians 15. Shall we dance again?

Next, let me deal with the amill folly Satan is bound in this age, which the NT destroys,

Ephesians 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. KJV

1 Corinthians 5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 7
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

1 Thessalonians 2
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As you can see it is folly to believe Satan is bound now. He’s bound to get you if you believe that. Moreover, Satan is bound in the abyss in the age to come, for whence he must “rise” when released, but in this age, he is “cast down to the earth” to persecute the woman/church and the remnant of her seed that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 12. Amills don’t know which direction they’re going. And this accounts for Luke 10:17-18, when he is cast down.

I have limited time so if there is anything else that still needs to be addressed, let me know, but rest assure we will not move past 1 Corinthians 15 as long as you fail to grasp the passage. I like dancing.

 

[eclipsenow]

Let me tell you Mr., I don’t care being told: “How many times are we going to do this dance?” as if you were talking to a child. No one is forcing you to post here with such condescending comments and I’ll correct you as many times as you fail to grasp 1 Corinthians 15. Again, Christ must reign before death is destroyed,

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 NASB​

The NT affirms Christ rewards the saints with rule, power and authority to rule with him when he returns (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21).

It’s all about that “not yet” thing amills pay lip service to; they conveniently try and circumvent the “not yet!” Christ is "not yet" ruling in the consummate sense, by your own doctrine. By your own lip service Christ’s consummate rule comes in the age to come, which means the end doesn’t come when Christ returns. 1 Corinthians 15 states we don’t enter the eternal state until Christ “abolishes” rule, power and authority and the NT affirms Christ rules with the saints in power and authority when he returns. Post and amill are undone by 1 Corinthians 15. Shall we dance again?

Next, let me deal with the amill folly Satan is bound in this age, which the NT destroys,

Ephesians 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. KJV

1 Corinthians 5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 7
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

2 Corinthians 11
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

1 Thessalonians 2
18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

As you can see it is folly to believe Satan is bound now. He’s bound to get you if you believe that. Moreover, Satan is bound in the abyss in the age to come, for whence he must “rise” when released, but in this age, he is “cast down to the earth” to persecute the woman/church and the remnant of her seed that “keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 12. Amills don’t know which direction they’re going. And this accounts for Luke 10:17-18, when he is cast down.

I have limited time so if there is anything else that still needs to be addressed, let me know, but rest assure we will not move past 1 Corinthians 15 as long as you fail to grasp the passage. I like dancing.

Hmmm - I actually don't think the 'do this dance' comment was that uncalled for in modern internet parlance, given how many times you have just ignored most of the important theological questions and verses I have raised. If you doubt me go back and make a tally of my questions - and see what percentage you have deigned to answer. I'm guessing it's somewhere around 70 to 80% of the verses and questions I raise?

I'm going to take a few days - I need to hit the books. Your questions about Satan's actions in this age are important to you - and I thought I had addressed them. I explained that Jesus said the advance of gospel preaching was binding Satan in a way. I never claimed it represented a full reign of Jesus on the earth - but that he reigned in the heavens and the church. But because I'm rusty on this - and not a professional theologian - I need to do some further reading. There are some particulars about Jesus ascending over the spiritual powers and authorities that I need to double-check before I post again.

I really hope that in the meantime that you have a think about all the other material I have contributed that you have just winced at and put in the 'too hard' basket!

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Hmmm - I actually don't think the 'do this dance' comment was that uncalled for in modern internet parlance, given how many times you have just ignored most of the important theological questions and verses I have raised. If you doubt me go back and make a tally of my questions - and see what percentage you have deigned to answer. I'm guessing it's somewhere around 70 to 80% of the verses and questions I raise?

I'm going to take a few days - I need to hit the books. Your questions about Satan's actions in this age are important to you - and I thought I had addressed them. I explained that Jesus said the advance of gospel preaching was binding Satan in a way. I never claimed it represented a full reign of Jesus on the earth - but that he reigned in the heavens and the church. But because I'm rusty on this - and not a professional theologian - I need to do some further reading. There are some particulars about Jesus ascending over the spiritual powers and authorities that I need to double-check before I post again.

I really hope that in the meantime that you have a think about all the other material I have contributed that you have just winced at and put in the 'too hard' basket!

You had just apologized for your impatient remarks, which I accepted, and then you did it again. That’s why I tired of these forum antics. If you think I’m new to debating amill issues, you’re mistaken. I’m 73 and was there when forums began on the internet.

Isaiah 14:12 reveals Satan’s main object is to weaken the nation, and by planting his tears throughout this age he fulfills his mission and is not bound in the capacity of Revelation 20. Revelation 20 affirms he is bound from doing that until he is released and rises from the abyss to go forth and deceive the nations again to gather them to attack the people of God who have been abiding in peace and security according to Eziekiel 38-39.

As for not addressing what you write, my OP conveyed a command of the OT prophecies that established Christ didn’t come to establish his kingdom but to scatter the sheep. His kingdom is realized when he returns to gather them back into the domain promised to them through Abraham. You never truly addressed a number of the issues in the OP, so now you know how it feels.

Even so, what I did do is present you with the most damaging issue in the NT again post and amill: 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[eclipsenow]

You had just apologized for your impatient remarks, which I accepted,

Again, you are conflating things that do not belong together. I apologised for certain character insinuations.

I never apologised for wanting an intellectually credible and honest debate where my interlocutor would actually address the points I raised while I attempted to address theirs.

That’s why I tired of these forum antics.

Then why post here? What - did you just want 1000 commenters to congratulate you on your thoughts? Selling your book? You didn't want to test your thinking to make sure you had covered all bases adequately?

Isaiah 14:12

No - but I'm not really covering new ground until you have a go at the things I've raised. Let me put it to you in a few easy questions.

You seem to believe in 3 ages - this age and 2 ages to come. The New Testament only speaks of the one age to come. (Apart from the symbolism of the souls coming to life in Revelation 20, which many misread - and your special reading of 1 Cor 15 which refers to Christ's reign now and in the future age.)

If there are 2 ages to come - how do we tell which 'ages' verses apply to the Millennium, and which apply to eternity and the NHNE? (See - when you break the Millennium away from now and make it a 'half-heaven, half-earth' I'm not even sure what to call the real thing anymore!)

Because as far as I can tell, the New Testament speaks of only 2 ages: This Age (now), and Eternity.

THIS AGE has temptation, Satan, marriage, children, sickness, tears, ageing, death, and Jesus reigning over his kingdom as the church.

ETERNITY has no temptation, no Satan, no marriage, no more children, no more sickness, no more tears, no more ageing, no more death, but Jesus reigning visibly over a new heavens and new earth.

There is no way to reconcile some sort of 'in between' age. Attempts to do so fail on so many fronts.

You seem to have eternal immortal Christians living alongside mortal non-Christians? Because who are the 'nations' that are going to be deceived at the end of Chapter 20? If Christians are immortal - are we already not having children? Does that mean we would be living in a world that still has marriage - when the whole point of marriage is to remind us that we are the bride - and Jesus is the groom - and then Jesus returns and we're NOT getting married but non-Christians must be so that there can even BE a rebellion at the end of your literalistic reading of Rev 20?

Do you see how messed up this gets? It breaks ALL the other verses in the NT that talk about the age to come.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Again, you are conflating things that do not belong together. I apologised for certain character insinuations.

I never apologised for wanting an intellectually credible and honest debate where my interlocutor would actually address the points I raised while I attempted to address theirs.


Then why post here? What - did you just want 1000 commenters to congratulate you on your thoughts? Selling your book? You didn't want to test your thinking to make sure you had covered all bases adequately?


No - but I'm not really covering new ground until you have a go at the things I've raised. Let me put it to you in a few easy questions.

You seem to believe in 3 ages - this age and 2 ages to come. The New Testament only speaks of the one age to come. (Apart from the symbolism of the souls coming to life in Revelation 20, which many misread - and your special reading of 1 Cor 15 which refers to Christ's reign now and in the future age.)

If there are 2 ages to come - how do we tell which 'ages' verses apply to the Millennium, and which apply to eternity and the NHNE? (See - when you break the Millennium away from now and make it a 'half-heaven, half-earth' I'm not even sure what to call the real thing anymore!)

Because as far as I can tell, the New Testament speaks of only 2 ages: This Age (now), and Eternity.

THIS AGE has temptation, Satan, marriage, children, sickness, tears, ageing, death, and Jesus reigning over his kingdom as the church.

ETERNITY has no temptation, no Satan, no marriage, no more children, no more sickness, no more tears, no more ageing, no more death, but Jesus reigning visibly over a new heavens and new earth.

There is no way to reconcile some sort of 'in between' age. Attempts to do so fail on so many fronts.

You seem to have eternal immortal Christians living alongside mortal non-Christians? Because who are the 'nations' that are going to be deceived at the end of Chapter 20? If Christians are immortal - are we already not having children? Does that mean we would be living in a world that still has marriage - when the whole point of marriage is to remind us that we are the bride - and Jesus is the groom - and then Jesus returns and we're NOT getting married but non-Christians must be so that there can even BE a rebellion at the end of your literalistic reading of Rev 20?

Do you see how messed up this gets? It breaks ALL the other verses in the NT that talk about the age to come.

You said you would like: “an intellectually credible and honest debate where my interlocutor would actually address the points I raised while I attempted to address theirs.”

When did you address the main point of my OP? My main or central point was that– Christ didn’t base his parables on unforeseen outcomes concerning his call to Israel. Instead, all his parables had their basis in ordained outcomes. According to the OT, Christ was ordained to be rejected and the children of Israel scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion.

I never said anything about premillennialism, but that’s where you went without addressing the evidence that I presented. You pushed aside the evidence to promote amill, claiming I over literalized the OT and undermined the NT, the typical amill response: allegorize everything and ignoring the evidence.

Be that as it may, I merely went to the NT to demolish amill, which upset you enough to go after my character, which still hasn’t abated. As I stated, 1 Corinthians 15 demolishes amill, insomuch as Christ must reign before death is destroyed, and the NT maintains Christ continues to reign when he returns (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21). Even you admit that unwittingly with your “not yet” inconsistency. The OT must be fulfilled in the grammatical-historical hermeneutic, as the parables weren’t made up but were ordained outcomes given to the prophets to inform all of the saints,

And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:3-6​

As I stated, the parable of the wheat and tares has its origin in the OT prophecies that Christ would be rejected, stricken and the sheep scattered, which you never surmounted or even addressed. All you had to offer is the typical amill response that I over literalize and neglect the NT. Nevertheless, the OT evidence that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 13:7) vindicates premillennialism because we can’t have Christ come to establish his kingdom when the intent was to scatter the sheep and gather the wheat into the barn at his return, mixing metaphors. As Jeremiah prophesied above, the intent was to establish the kingdom of Christ when he gathers the sheep at his return and reigns in fulfillment of Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21. I’m not over literalizing; you’re over allegorizing. You simply can’t surmount the NT evidence that Christ returns to rule in power and authority with the saints, which means he doesn’t return to abolish power and authority to enter eternity, confirming premillennialism.

This truth leads to premillennialism with all its implications that destroys post and amill. As far as I’m concerned you never addressed the object of my OP and merely posted to promote your doctrine. So don’t be so upset when my response is to go for greatest truth in the NT that demolishes your doctrine. And don’t expect me to be distracted from that goal.

 

[eclipsenow]

When did you address the main point of my OP? My main or central point was that– Christ didn’t base his parables on unforeseen outcomes concerning his call to Israel. Instead, all his parables had their basis in ordained outcomes.

The were 2 very long, information filled posts with a number of theologies where I agreed and disagreed. I had to start somewhere. To reply to everything at once would have required maybe 10 posts of equal length. I doubt you would have read and replied to any of that.

According to the OT, Christ was ordained to be rejected and the children of Israel scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion.

I agree the whole Old Testament in God's Sovereignty is looking towards the one who will fulfil it all. In the limited space I had to address your 2 very long OP's - I brought up Covenant Theology. In my very first post to you. Do you know what that is? Do you know how it addresses Israel and your claims that it must be restored before the end? Do you know the important theological heritage of this concept? If you do - then how can you say I didn't reply to your claims? If you don't - then maybe you need an introduction? This is not about me any more - and our debate here. This is about you brushing up on some basic theological terms to come up to speed with the debate. Even though it will not change your mind - as that ship seems to have sailed - it's important for you to really understand. It's a big deal! It's like not knowing the difference between a Protestant and Catholic.

EDIT: In the email you'll see I linked to an article about Covenant Theology but it was too generic a description. It does not go into the specifics of how it applies to our conversation.

This one is better. In a discussion of Romans Chapters 9 to 11 - we see this conclusion:

​

What’s more, Paul says that this era of salvation—of Jewish and Gentile belief—concludes with the resurrection (“life from the dead,” 11:15), which is to say, with the Parousia (cf. 11:15 in the light of 1Cor. 15:23; see also, perhaps, “from Zion” in 11:26). What this means is that all the “inclusion” (11:12) and “acceptance” (11:15) and the “com[ing] in,”—all the salvation promised in the Old Testament—takes place before Jesus returns. In other words, it takes place now (see 11:30–31; also v. 14) and in the church.​

The Relationship between Israel and the Church

Israel and the church are two of the main characters in the Bible’s unfolding story. One plays a huge role in the Old Testament and the other in the New.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

That is - seen through Covenant Theology - the church IS Israel today. That impacts how we understand OT prophecies about the kingdom of God now - which also impacts how we understand the peripheral issues you keep raising.

The church is the kingdom of God, and Jesus reigns through the church now. So I will now try to tweak these points more to answering your issues with reign. (A recent post of mine - refreshed a bit at the end.)

First note that the gospel word often translated as the 'kingdom of God' should really be 'kingship' or 'kingly rule'. (Alister McGrath). There's a strong sense of Inaugurated Theology in that. It’s not a geopolitical kingdom Jesus is talking about - but a spiritual kingship. Then the rest of the New Testament confirms this 'now but not yet' kingship of God because:-

Matthew 28:18 says ALL authority HAS BEEN given to Jesus - therefore go make disciples.

John 18:36-37 shows how Jesus kingdom is 'not of this world' but about everyone who listens to the truth.

Philippians 2:9 says Jesus is already exalted to the highest place.

Colossians 2 shows how Jesus reigning NOW over all the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES is an essential part in his saving work NOW! It is his death and resurrection and dealing with sin that disarms the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES that you are so worried about?

"9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every POWER AND AUTHORITY. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.​

​

"13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having cancelled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.​

He is above all power and authority, everything IS UNDER HIS FEET now!

Ephesians 1:20.​

"That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."​

It's not a passive waiting for some hypothetical millennium to do this work - but our ministry. And when enough is enough - Jesus returns and finishes it all and hands over the world to God. Jesus is NOW the "ruler of the kings of the earth." Revelation 1:5

How does all this work when here on Earth we see sin and Satan and temptation and the spiritual war still happening?

My understanding is that the NT expresses both the spiritual rule of Jesus above all the spiritual powers and authorities. But although he has been inaugurated as the verses above clearly show, his complete rule has not yet spread to the earth. We continue to bind Satan’s kingdom as we preach the gospel.

I’ve been reading Alister McGrath and he says that people during Roman times were terrified of the spiritual powers having complete tyrannical power in heaven and on earth. Paul and other apostles specifically wrote the verses above to indicate how JESUS reigns in heaven - and will help us accomplish our mission. The Great Commission explicitly states that ALL power and authority had been given to him! Past tense. Done! Achieved. So what were we to do? Start our reigning now? Not at all! We had to preach the gospel.

Revelation explains that this means we are contesting against Satan and his political influence on earth - and that means sometimes we will be executed for our faith in Christ. But don’t worry. Our souls will come alive and reign with the elders on the thrones - we’ll enjoy the spiritual authority and security of all the similar verses about the martyrs and the thrones in Revelation!

And then when Jesus returns at the END of Revelation 20 - his spiritual inauguration in heaven is finally fully installed on the earth! It is in that sense that 1 Cor 15:25 says Christ must reign.

IMPLICATIONS OF YOUR VIEW

IF JESUS IS NOT REIGNING NOW - WE ARE NOT SAVED

This is what makes me so uncomfortable about your reading of 1 Cor 15. You want to postpone till the Millennium what the rest of the NT clearly says not only happened at the cross and continues for us - but is an essential part of the gospel message itself. We ARE NOT SAVED if Jesus does not have dominion over the powers and authorities - because according to Colossians 2 - that is required to remove their claim over our sin.

This is why I am comfortable with 1 Cor 15 actually being about now!

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

According to the NT verses above - he DOES reign now - until he will put ALL his enemies under his feet - destroying all powers and authorities. When he returns. As 1 Cor 15 says! For he “has put everything under his feet.”
So he reigns over them now - but will DESTROY them when he returns.

The evil forces in the heavenly realms - and their expressions here.

So it's all perfectly consistent with the rest of the NT and with an Amil reading of Rev 20.

What isn't? Your reading of it! Because it destroys Jesus essential reign over the powers and authorities right now so that we can even be saved, and even have any hope up in the spiritual realm.

WHAT ABOUT THE POWERS BEING DESTROYED?
I hear you already protesting that we must reign with Christ in the kingdom to come. I agree!

But all your verses about reigning in that age fail to confirm or prove when that is. I think it all happens in the NHNE - when the New Jerusalem comes down and its very structure is built around the security of the elders we saw reigning from the heavenly thrones all through Revelation.

Hence: 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with Him."

1 Corinthians 6:2: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" This verse suggests a future role of judgment for believers, implying a position of authority.

Matthew 19:28: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'"

This verse speaks specifically to the apostles' future role in judgment and rule.
Their reign is in heaven in Revelation - as the elders on the very thrones you would want to place on the earth.
(Again - where is the EVIDENCE FOR THAT BELIEF?)
But instead - we see that their authority and judgement and reign is built into the very fabric of the new reality as the New Jerusalem descends to the earth. It's rich imagery, with the apostles forming the foundations, and the 12 tribes forming the gates. It's like the thing would not even exist, and we would not be able to get into it, without the full reign of the ecclesia - the Old and New Covenant gathering of God. For that is what Israel was and what the church becomes - the gathering of God's people.

Over to you.
It's your turn to address these matters, and not just 'rinse and repeat' as you have for the last umpteen posts.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The were 2 very long, information filled posts with a number of theologies where I agreed and disagreed. I had to start somewhere. To reply to everything at once would have required maybe 10 posts of equal length. I doubt you would have read and replied to any of that.



I agree the whole Old Testament in God's Sovereignty is looking towards the one who will fulfil it all. In the limited space I had to address your 2 very long OP's - I brought up Covenant Theology. In my very first post to you. Do you know what that is? Do you know how it addresses Israel and your claims that it must be restored before the end? Do you know the important theological heritage of this concept? If you do - then how can you say I didn't reply to your claims? If you don't - then maybe you need an introduction? This is not about me any more - and our debate here. This is about you brushing up on some basic theological terms to come up to speed with the debate. Even though it will not change your mind - as that ship seems to have sailed - it's important for you to really understand. It's a big deal! It's like not knowing the difference between a Protestant and Catholic.

EDIT: In the email you'll see I linked to an article about Covenant Theology but it was too generic a description. It does not go into the specifics of how it applies to our conversation.

This one is better. In a discussion of Romans Chapters 9 to 11 - we see this conclusion:

​

What’s more, Paul says that this era of salvation—of Jewish and Gentile belief—concludes with the resurrection (“life from the dead,” 11:15), which is to say, with the Parousia (cf. 11:15 in the light of 1Cor. 15:23; see also, perhaps, “from Zion” in 11:26). What this means is that all the “inclusion” (11:12) and “acceptance” (11:15) and the “com[ing] in,”—all the salvation promised in the Old Testament—takes place before Jesus returns. In other words, it takes place now (see 11:30–31; also v. 14) and in the church.​

The Relationship between Israel and the Church

Israel and the church are two of the main characters in the Bible’s unfolding story. One plays a huge role in the Old Testament and the other in the New.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

That is - seen through Covenant Theology - the church IS Israel today. That impacts how we understand OT prophecies about the kingdom of God now - which also impacts how we understand the peripheral issues you keep raising.

The church is the kingdom of God, and Jesus reigns through the church now. So I will now try to tweak these points more to answering your issues with reign. (A recent post of mine - refreshed a bit at the end.)

First note that the gospel word often translated as the 'kingdom of God' should really be 'kingship' or 'kingly rule'. (Alister McGrath). There's a strong sense of Inaugurated Theology in that. It’s not a geopolitical kingdom Jesus is talking about - but a spiritual kingship. Then the rest of the New Testament confirms this 'now but not yet' kingship of God because:-

Matthew 28:18 says ALL authority HAS BEEN given to Jesus - therefore go make disciples.

John 18:36-37 shows how Jesus kingdom is 'not of this world' but about everyone who listens to the truth.

Philippians 2:9 says Jesus is already exalted to the highest place.

Colossians 2 shows how Jesus reigning NOW over all the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES is an essential part in his saving work NOW! It is his death and resurrection and dealing with sin that disarms the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES that you are so worried about?

"9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every POWER AND AUTHORITY. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.​

​

"13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having cancelled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the POWERS AND AUTHORITIES, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.​

He is above all power and authority, everything IS UNDER HIS FEET now!

Ephesians 1:20.​

"That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."​

It's not a passive waiting for some hypothetical millennium to do this work - but our ministry. And when enough is enough - Jesus returns and finishes it all and hands over the world to God. Jesus is NOW the "ruler of the kings of the earth." Revelation 1:5

How does all this work when here on Earth we see sin and Satan and temptation and the spiritual war still happening?

My understanding is that the NT expresses both the spiritual rule of Jesus above all the spiritual powers and authorities. But although he has been inaugurated as the verses above clearly show, his complete rule has not yet spread to the earth. We continue to bind Satan’s kingdom as we preach the gospel.

I’ve been reading Alister McGrath and he says that people during Roman times were terrified of the spiritual powers having complete tyrannical power in heaven and on earth. Paul and other apostles specifically wrote the verses above to indicate how JESUS reigns in heaven - and will help us accomplish our mission. The Great Commission explicitly states that ALL power and authority had been given to him! Past tense. Done! Achieved. So what were we to do? Start our reigning now? Not at all! We had to preach the gospel.

Revelation explains that this means we are contesting against Satan and his political influence on earth - and that means sometimes we will be executed for our faith in Christ. But don’t worry. Our souls will come alive and reign with the elders on the thrones - we’ll enjoy the spiritual authority and security of all the similar verses about the martyrs and the thrones in Revelation!

And then when Jesus returns at the END of Revelation 20 - his spiritual inauguration in heaven is finally fully installed on the earth! It is in that sense that 1 Cor 15:25 says Christ must reign.

IMPLICATIONS OF YOUR VIEW

IF JESUS IS NOT REIGNING NOW - WE ARE NOT SAVED

This is what makes me so uncomfortable about your reading of 1 Cor 15. You want to postpone till the Millennium what the rest of the NT clearly says not only happened at the cross and continues for us - but is an essential part of the gospel message itself. We ARE NOT SAVED if Jesus does not have dominion over the powers and authorities - because according to Colossians 2 - that is required to remove their claim over our sin.

This is why I am comfortable with 1 Cor 15 actually being about now!

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

According to the NT verses above - he DOES reign now - until he will put ALL his enemies under his feet - destroying all powers and authorities. When he returns. As 1 Cor 15 says! For he “has put everything under his feet.”
So he reigns over them now - but will DESTROY them when he returns.

The evil forces in the heavenly realms - and their expressions here.

So it's all perfectly consistent with the rest of the NT and with an Amil reading of Rev 20.

What isn't? Your reading of it! Because it destroys Jesus essential reign over the powers and authorities right now so that we can even be saved, and even have any hope up in the spiritual realm.

WHAT ABOUT THE POWERS BEING DESTROYED?
I hear you already protesting that we must reign with Christ in the kingdom to come. I agree!

But all your verses about reigning in that age fail to confirm or prove when that is. I think it all happens in the NHNE - when the New Jerusalem comes down and its very structure is built around the security of the elders we saw reigning from the heavenly thrones all through Revelation.

Hence: 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with Him."

1 Corinthians 6:2: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" This verse suggests a future role of judgment for believers, implying a position of authority.

Matthew 19:28: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.'"

This verse speaks specifically to the apostles' future role in judgment and rule.
Their reign is in heaven in Revelation - as the elders on the very thrones you would want to place on the earth.
(Again - where is the EVIDENCE FOR THAT BELIEF?)
But instead - we see that their authority and judgement and reign is built into the very fabric of the new reality as the New Jerusalem descends to the earth. It's rich imagery, with the apostles forming the foundations, and the 12 tribes forming the gates. It's like the thing would not even exist, and we would not be able to get into it, without the full reign of the ecclesia - the Old and New Covenant gathering of God. For that is what Israel was and what the church becomes - the gathering of God's people.

Over to you.
It's your turn to address these matters, and not just 'rinse and repeat' as you have for the last umpteen posts.

Using expression that “I need to come up to speed with you” is presumption. You assume I don’t know anything about and never studied covenant theology and that is addresses the issues concerning the main or center point of my thesis; it doesn’t, and I studied covenant theology decades ago.

Covenant theology is not inimical to my thesis, but it falls short in addressing issues like the OT evidence that Christ was ordained to be rejected and the children of Israel scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion. BTW, the theologist of the 16th and 17th centuries were predominately historicists that separated from the amill Roman Church. You’ve made it apparent it’s you who is not up to speed on the theologies of our forefathers, like the Chiliast.

A more significant theology has risen in contemporary times through progressive revelation known as two-house theology, which is superior to covenant theology. Here is a link to a website: 7 Scriptural Proofs For Two House (Theology), following up on Zac Bauer

After years of studying and accepting covenant theology I came across two-house, which answered a number of issues that continually nagged me, and that covenant theology could not answer. I found that two-house was a superior lens in interpreting scripture and develops a proper tool in understanding prophecy in general.

As to your post that changed drastically from the email response, your use of Ephesians proves my point. Christ is placed above “principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.” That means he comes into great power, authority and dominion in “the age to come,” which is inimical to post and amill. It vindicates that Christ doesn’t abolish rule, power, and authority when he returns, affirmed also in Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21.

Consequently, he fulfills Jeremiah 23:3-6 in agreement with Two-House theology. It’s also in agreement with 1 Corinthians 15 that maintains Christ must reign in a greater sense in the age to come before the end and the eternal state commences.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:25-26​

This truth leads to premillennialism with all its implications that destroys post and amill. Any text in the NT that asserts we reign in a limited sense now must also be taken with those that maintain we are also subject to the powers that be and persecutions. The NT affirms that in the age to come we are given even greater rule, power and authority over the nations, which means the end doesn't come yet.

As far as I’m concerned you never addressed the object of my OP and merely posted to promote your doctrine. So don’t be so upset when my response is to go for greatest truth in the NT that demolishes your doctrine. And don’t expect me to be distracted from that goal.

 

[eclipsenow]

Covenant theology is not inimical to my thesis, but it falls short in addressing issues like the OT evidence that Christ was ordained to be rejected...

Covenant Theology would agree so far...

and the children of Israel scattered throughout the world and gathered back at Christ’s return, which is when Israel will be restored to its dominion.

If this were a game show, that's where the buzzer would say BBBZZZZZZTTT!

The red lights on the Covenant Theology dashboard start lighting up right there!

You have just torn apart the Covenant Theologians very definition of the church - and even parts of the gospel. Not that the gospel is destroyed - there are many people here that also have that kind of faulty futurist reading of the OT who I would say are Christians themselves. But that it starts to confuse and attack how big the gospel of Jesus is.

BTW, the theologist of the 16th and 17th centuries were predominately historicists that separated from the amill Roman Church. You’ve made it apparent it’s you who is not up to speed on the theologies of our forefathers, like the Chiliast.

Yet this article I referred to originally was talking about Covenant Theology. It did not really unpack that much about how that impacts our understanding of the Israel and the church as the ONE ecclesia of God. This then has flow on effects for eschatology, in that if a student sees how vast the gospel fulfilments to Israel really are - the person is not left wondering when certain OT prophesies are going to be fulfilled. They all have their YES in Christ! This paragraph was mainly about the origins of CT, not Amil eschatology.

The formulation of covenant theology is the work of the 16th and 17th century Calvinistic Reformation. By the middle of the 1500s Zwingli, Bullinger, Calvin and others had articulated fundamental aspects of covenant theology in response both to medieval Roman Catholic and contemporary Anabaptist interpretative errors, especially pertaining to the relation of the Old and New Testaments, deliberately citing the church fathers as informing their views and confirming the importance of the covenants in their exposition of redemptive history. Covenant theology became influential in all the various branches of Reformed evangelical Protestantism (Presbyterian, Continental Reformed, Anglican, Congregationalist, Independent, and Baptist).​

Covenant Theology

Covenant theology is an approach to biblical interpretation and for understanding the divine-human relationship relying upon the covenants.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

But you're right in that I'm not a professional theologian - and I could not really tell you what percentage of Reformation groups held exactly what eschatology - just that Amil was up there. Do you have any degrees in theology?

After years of studying and accepting covenant theology I came across two-house, which answered a number of issues that continually nagged me, and that covenant theology could not answer. I found that two-house was a superior lens in interpreting scripture and develops a proper tool in understanding prophecy in general.

In about 100 words - what is it? I might know it by another name - given I'm in Australia. (We call Inaugurated Theology "Eschatological Tension" and I'm dumping that name because I just found out Alister McGrath uses Inaugurated. If it's good enough for Al - it's good enough for me. He's a bit of a hero of mine - the next CS Lewis in fact - and has debated Richard Dawkins.) I had a look at the about page and the guy seems to be advocating some kind of return to following the law? Remember - I'm meant to be repairing a rusty shed and finding a new job. I'll probably bookmark this conversation at some time Jerry and have to leave it for a few months.

As to your post that changed drastically from the email response,

Yeah - my emotions get the better of me and so I'm kind of erratic in my posting style. I was so worked up about Covenant Theology I forgot the article I really needed to link to needed to have reference to the church to explain how CT related to your 2 OP's.

your use of Ephesians proves my point. Christ is placed above “principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.” That means he comes into great power, authority and dominion in “the age to come,” which is inimical to post and amill.

Come on Jerry!
What does 'not only in this world' mean?

You were so selective in the way you quickly carved out chunks of Ephesians to see what you wanted to see - you basically butchered that verse! You ran from the bits you didn't like.

Ephesians 1:20.
"That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."


Seated = past tense. Already done. It results in him being far above authorities, powers, and dominions now. Which is totally consistent with the Amillennial 'spiritualising' of certain conflicts with the evil forces in this world.

Placed = past tense. God has placed all those powers under Jesus feet. It already happened!

Col 2 also says Jesus is the HEAD over every power and authority and has disarmed them as well! Now. Not in some hypothetical in-between heaven age. Indeed - arguing Jesus is NOT right now the head over every spiritual power and authority threatens our understanding of our very salvation from those spiritual powers - and would make us ask (if we understand such things - many don't!) whether or not they still have a claim on us!

Your reading of 1 Cor 15:25 not only contradicts 1 Cor 15:27 - but Ephesians 1 and Col 2 above - and threatens an important part of the gospel itself!

Does 27 NOT say the past tense words "HAS put everything under his feet?"
Does Col 2 not say Jesus is right now head over all these powers?
Does Eph 1 not say he is far above them all, and they are under his feet, and he is above them all - for the church?

1 Cor 15
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


That is - Jesus must reign now - until all his enemies are put under his feet on this earth when he returns! That is all this chunk of 1 Cor 15 explains! The verses I refer to above are talking about the spiritual aspects of this - in that the spiritual tyranny does not extend all the way through the heavenly realms in such a manner that people have no access to God himself! But rather - in our spiritual battle against the devil here and now - we know that Christ is already seated on high, has already put everything under his feet in the heavenly realms, has already blessed the church with this knowledge and power that he has over everything - and so we must march on! We must preach. We must fulfil the Great Commission because Jesus ALREADY has all power and authority and reigns from on high! (Rev 2).

Then the second he returns it's Judgement Day - and all pretensions to other spiritual powers and authorities are destroyed - and humanity can finally reign over this renewed creation as the image of God in a servant, obedient, spirit filled manner that God intended. That's what I wish the American church would focus on!

But instead - coming in here every 6 months as I do - out of sheer morbid curiosity - I find people obsessively pushing various futurist views.

And what happens when they do not pan out? Their interpretation of 'prophecies' from the OT are not fulfilled - and it becomes another source of amusement from a scoffing, sceptical world. Futurists have not understood that Covenant Theology actually is how the NT presents the promises in the OT to Israel - and the one olive tree inherits and fulfils all those promises in Inaugurated Theology - in the now and not yet of Christ's reign.

Consequently, he fulfills Jeremiah 23:3-6 in agreement with Two-House theology.

Um - I really hope "Two-house" does not mean what I think it means!?

Jeremiah is referring to Jesus and the church here mate - the one olive tree of Romans. Not two kingdoms - one!

This truth leads to premillennialism with all its implications that destroys post and amill.

But you can't answer why other verses say Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness at his parousia - the moment he returns - which of course contradicts Rev 20 - which would have him destroy the false prophet at the end of 1000 years.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Covenant Theology would agree so far...



If this were a game show, that's where the buzzer would say BBBZZZZZZTTT!

The red lights on the Covenant Theology dashboard start lighting up right there!

You have just torn apart the Covenant Theologians very definition of the church - and even parts of the gospel. Not that the gospel is destroyed - there are many people here that also have that kind of faulty futurist reading of the OT who I would say are Christians themselves. But that it starts to confuse and attack how big the gospel of Jesus is.


Yet this article I referred to originally was talking about Covenant Theology. It did not really unpack that much about how that impacts our understanding of the Israel and the church as the ONE ecclesia of God. This then has flow on effects for eschatology, in that if a student sees how vast the gospel fulfilments to Israel really are - the person is not left wondering when certain OT prophesies are going to be fulfilled. They all have their YES in Christ! This paragraph was mainly about the origins of CT, not Amil eschatology.

The formulation of covenant theology is the work of the 16th and 17th century Calvinistic Reformation. By the middle of the 1500s Zwingli, Bullinger, Calvin and others had articulated fundamental aspects of covenant theology in response both to medieval Roman Catholic and contemporary Anabaptist interpretative errors, especially pertaining to the relation of the Old and New Testaments, deliberately citing the church fathers as informing their views and confirming the importance of the covenants in their exposition of redemptive history. Covenant theology became influential in all the various branches of Reformed evangelical Protestantism (Presbyterian, Continental Reformed, Anglican, Congregationalist, Independent, and Baptist).​

Covenant Theology

Covenant theology is an approach to biblical interpretation and for understanding the divine-human relationship relying upon the covenants.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

But you're right in that I'm not a professional theologian - and I could not really tell you what percentage of Reformation groups held exactly what eschatology - just that Amil was up there. Do you have any degrees in theology?



In about 100 words - what is it? I might know it by another name - given I'm in Australia. (We call Inaugurated Theology "Eschatological Tension" and I'm dumping that name because I just found out Alister McGrath uses Inaugurated. If it's good enough for Al - it's good enough for me. He's a bit of a hero of mine - the next CS Lewis in fact - and has debated Richard Dawkins.) I had a look at the about page and the guy seems to be advocating some kind of return to following the law? Remember - I'm meant to be repairing a rusty shed and finding a new job. I'll probably bookmark this conversation at some time Jerry and have to leave it for a few months.


Yeah - my emotions get the better of me and so I'm kind of erratic in my posting style. I was so worked up about Covenant Theology I forgot the article I really needed to link to needed to have reference to the church to explain how CT related to your 2 OP's.



Come on Jerry!
What does 'not only in this world' mean?

You were so selective in the way you quickly carved out chunks of Ephesians to see what you wanted to see - you basically butchered that verse! You ran from the bits you didn't like.

Ephesians 1:20.
"That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."


Seated = past tense. Already done. It results in him being far above authorities, powers, and dominions now. Which is totally consistent with the Amillennial 'spiritualising' of certain conflicts with the evil forces in this world.

Placed = past tense. God has placed all those powers under Jesus feet. It already happened!

Col 2 also says Jesus is the HEAD over every power and authority and has disarmed them as well! Now. Not in some hypothetical in-between heaven age. Indeed - arguing Jesus is NOT right now the head over every spiritual power and authority threatens our understanding of our very salvation from those spiritual powers - and would make us ask (if we understand such things - many don't!) whether or not they still have a claim on us!

Your reading of 1 Cor 15:25 not only contradicts 1 Cor 15:27 - but Ephesians 1 and Col 2 above - and threatens an important part of the gospel itself!

Does 27 NOT say the past tense words "HAS put everything under his feet?"
Does Col 2 not say Jesus is right now head over all these powers?
Does Eph 1 not say he is far above them all, and they are under his feet, and he is above them all - for the church?

1 Cor 15
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


That is - Jesus must reign now - until all his enemies are put under his feet on this earth when he returns! That is all this chunk of 1 Cor 15 explains! The verses I refer to above are talking about the spiritual aspects of this - in that the spiritual tyranny does not extend all the way through the heavenly realms in such a manner that people have no access to God himself! But rather - in our spiritual battle against the devil here and now - we know that Christ is already seated on high, has already put everything under his feet in the heavenly realms, has already blessed the church with this knowledge and power that he has over everything - and so we must march on! We must preach. We must fulfil the Great Commission because Jesus ALREADY has all power and authority and reigns from on high! (Rev 2).

Then the second he returns it's Judgement Day - and all pretensions to other spiritual powers and authorities are destroyed - and humanity can finally reign over this renewed creation as the image of God in a servant, obedient, spirit filled manner that God intended. That's what I wish the American church would focus on!

But instead - coming in here every 6 months as I do - out of sheer morbid curiosity - I find people obsessively pushing various futurist views.

And what happens when they do not pan out? Their interpretation of 'prophecies' from the OT are not fulfilled - and it becomes another source of amusement from a scoffing, sceptical world. Futurists have not understood that Covenant Theology actually is how the NT presents the promises in the OT to Israel - and the one olive tree inherits and fulfils all those promises in Inaugurated Theology - in the now and not yet of Christ's reign.




Um - I really hope "Two-house" does not mean what I think it means!?

Jeremiah is referring to Jesus and the church here mate - the one olive tree of Romans. Not two kingdoms - one!


But you can't answer why other verses say Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness at his parousia - the moment he returns - which of course contradicts Rev 20 - which would have him destroy the false prophet at the end of 1000 years.

Hold the bus. I have an interview Saturday a musical performance Sunday and have to prepare. I'll get back to you hopefully by Monday. I do want to address several issues, so it will be a lengthy one. Like all amills your tendency to allegorize is outlandish, but I'll reserve what I have to say for when I get a chance.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hold the bus. I have an interview Saturday a musical performance Sunday and have to prepare. I'll get back to you hopefully by Monday. I do want to address several issues, so it will be a lengthy one. Like all amills your tendency to allegorize is outlandish, but I'll reserve what I have to say for when I get a chance.

I hope your gig goes well!
Rock on!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Be that as it may, I merely went to the NT to demolish amill, which upset you enough to go after my character, which still hasn’t abated. As I stated, 1 Corinthians 15 demolishes amill, insomuch as Christ must reign before death is destroyed, and the NT maintains Christ continues to reign when he returns (Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21).

How does 1 Corinthians 15 demolish Amill? No, it absolutely does not. It confirms Amill. Paul said that the end comes when Jesus comes (1 Cor 15:22-24) and at that point Jesus will deliver the kingdom that He now rules over to God the Father. That's why Jesus indicated in the parable of the wheat and tares that at the end of the age the righteous will then shine forth in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:36-43). Jesus will return at the end of the age and He indicated Himself Are you somehow not aware that Jesus reigns now?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus reigns now and will deliver His kingdom, which does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36) to the Father when He returns.

As I stated, the parable of the wheat and tares has its origin in the OT prophecies that Christ would be rejected, stricken and the sheep scattered, which you never surmounted or even addressed. All you had to offer is the typical amill response that I over literalize and neglect the NT.

That is the typical amill response because that is exactly what you do. It's strange that you would try to reference the parable of the wheat and tares in support of premill when it clearly supports amill instead. Do you not believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age? Why did He say that the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father at that point if that is when He starts to reign, according to premill?

Nevertheless, the OT evidence that Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 13:7) vindicates premillennialism because we can’t have Christ come to establish his kingdom when the intent was to scatter the sheep and gather the wheat into the barn at his return, mixing metaphors. As Jeremiah prophesied above, the intent was to establish the kingdom of Christ when he gathers the sheep at his return and reigns in fulfillment of Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21. I’m not over literalizing; you’re over allegorizing. You simply can’t surmount the NT evidence that Christ returns to rule in power and authority with the saints, which means he doesn’t return to abolish power and authority to enter eternity, confirming premillennialism.

You sure make a lot of assumptions without proving a single thing. According to Jesus Himself in Matthew 25:31-46, He will be judging all people when He comes. This idea that He will reign on the earth over mortals at that point is not something Jesus Himself ever taught. Instead, all people will be judged with the righteous inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world with the wicked being cast into "eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). Where do you find your imaginary future earthly millennial kingdom there?

This truth leads to premillennialism with all its implications that destroys post and amill.

Empty words. You are doing nothing to back them up. Scripture overwhelmingly supports amill. Why don't you explain to me how any mortal unbelievers will survive Christ's return when scripture teaches that "sudden destruction" will come upon them from which "they shall not escape" when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Scripture says "they shall not escape". You say some shall escape. No. Peter made it clear in 2 Peter 3:10-12 that no mortal will escape when Jesus comes as a thief in the night because fire will come down and burn up the earth. No wonder Paul said that they will not escape. Premill has no answer for this.

As far as I’m concerned you never addressed the object of my OP and merely posted to promote your doctrine. So don’t be so upset when my response is to go for greatest truth in the NT that demolishes your doctrine. And don’t expect me to be distracted from that goal.

You are very delusional if you think you've done anything to demolish amill. Not even close. It can't be done.