Nullifying Original Sin - The Distinction between universal resurrection and Universalism

[Gup20]

Those who hold to Augustinian notions of "Original Sin" spend so much time trying to prove how all men were made sinners that they fail to understand that there is a universal end to Adam's original sin death judgment which nullifies Original Sin as a doctrine.

Put simply, Adam's judgment is ABOLISHED and nullified resulting in the repeal and vacatur of Original Sin for every person PRIOR to the final judgment of the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ). Therefore, regardless of one's views on Original Sin, it ends BEFORE final judgment and has no bearing on one's eternity.

The mechanism for this is a universal resurrection. Because the universal resurrection occurs PRIOR to the final judgment of the GWTJ, it does not result in universal salvation, and therefore, Universalism is not implicated. In fact, distinguishing universal resurrection from universal salvation destroys the possibility of Universalism.

Act 24:15 NASB95 - 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

Here we establish the fact that the resurrection is universal without respect to guilt or innocence.

Jhn 5:28-29 NASB95 - 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good [deeds] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil [deeds] to a resurrection of judgment.​

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Here we establish that both resurrection is universal AND that it occurs PRIOR to the final judgment.

Dan 12:1-2 NASB95 - 1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt.​

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Here we further establish that the resurrection occurs PRIOR to final judgment. Incidentally, this is also a great passage for those who hold to Universalism's claim that the Greek of the Hell passages in the New Testament claiming "everlasting torment" are just figures of Greek speech. Here, we have an agreeing passage in Hebrew which corroborates that this is a literal eternity, not a figurative one.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

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Here we see the final judgment of the GWTJ. We see that there is a universal resurrection which precedes the judgment with the sea, death, and Hades giving up all of their dead prior to judgment. Then, each person is judged INDIVIDUALLY, rather than corporately.... each one according to their deeds. It is that universal resurrection which destroys Original Sin.

The mechanism for that destruction is the nullification of Adam's death judgment.

Rom 5:18 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

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1Co 15:22 NASB95 - 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

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In these two passages we see that just as there was a universal, corporate judgment in Adam, there is an identical universal, corporate repeal of that judgment in Christ. The same "all" who are condemned and die in Adam are resurrected because of Christ. The mechanism for this is the nullification, repeal, or vacatur of Adam's Original Sin death judgment.

1Co 15:26 NASB95 - 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

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2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

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This is remarkable. Adam's death judgment is not "forgiven" or "atoned for." Rather, it is ABOLISHED. That Greek word is katargeō and it means to end or nullify. What would happen to ALL who died in Adam if Adam's death judgment were repealed? It would result in the resurrection of ALL who died because of that judgment. So lets establish the universality of Adam's death judgment.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

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Here we see that - for a SINGLE TRANSGRESSION - there was a universal death judgment. If we read Genesis 3 we see God judged Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground of the whole planet with death as a result of a SINGLE transgression. That is a universal judgment. So if we look at Rom 5:16b do we see Christ's free gift of righteousness applied to the one transgression? No! We see Christ's free gift of righteousness is applied to MANY transgressions, not the ONE transgression. This simply means that Christ's righteousness is applied to the INDIVIDUAL judgments, not the universal judgment. So how is Adam's Original Sin death judgment repealed?

Notice what 2Ti 1:10 above - death is abolished not by atonement, but by Christ's APPEARING!

Consider: as long as there are none righteous - no not one - a universal death judgment is JUST. We all essentially ratify that judgment when we sin. But what would happen if a single righteous One did appear? It would render a universal death judgment UNJUST. That universal death judgment would need to be repealed so that in its place we could have individual judgments to separate the righteous from the wicked.

So because a single righteous one (Christ) appeared, it results in the abolishment or vacatur of Adam's Original Sin death judgment. That repeal of Adam's judgment results in a universal resurrection from Adam's death PRIOR to the final judgment of the GWTJ.

So each person comes resurrected to life and unencumbered by Original Sin to the final judgment. This includes infants and babies who have no judicable deeds to be judged by. They have not yet reached an age of accountability. Therefore ALL infants and babies (as well as the mentally infirmed) are saved from judgment.

Christ's righteousness clothes the individuals who believe on Him in the GWTJ, so they are judged as righteous. But consider - once the individual judgments of the GWTJ do occur, the possibility of a universal resurrection is lost. You can only have a universal resurrection from a universal death judgment. Once individual judgments occur, you no longer have any basis for universal resurrection, and therefore, the possibility of universal salvation and Universalism is utterly destroyed by the concept of a universal resurrection prior to the GWTJ. 1) it uses up Rom 5:18 and 1Co 15:22 so that they are no longer available as a mechanism for Universalism, and 2) it demonstrates that there can only be individual actions rather than universal actions after final judgment.

 

[com7fy8]

It is that universal resurrection which destroys Original Sin.

But the wicked will still have sin in them, after being resurrected. Only in Jesus, for us who have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 < the condemnation for sin is removed.

there is an identical universal, corporate repeal of that judgment in Christ.

For those of us who "first trusted in Christ" > Ephesians 1:12.

The wicked resurrected will be reaping "corruption" > Galatians 6:7-8. And in such reaped corrupt state they will not be able to pass judgment.

Adam's death judgment is not "forgiven" or "atoned for." Rather, it is ABOLISHED.

For those of us who "first trusted in Christ" > Ephesians 1:12.

You can only have a universal resurrection from a universal death judgment.

Yes, all will be resurrected, but ones will be reaping differently.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:7-8)

In the resurrection, how each person is, spiritually, will be greatly multiplied. And there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) > this nasty negative naughty spirit of Satan corrupts how people are, in their sin. You do not want to be resurrected in this.

 

[Gup20]

But the wicked will still have sin in them, after being resurrected. Only in Jesus, for us who have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 < the condemnation for sin is removed.

I agree.

The universal resurrection is irrespective of being guilty or innocent, wicked or righteous.

The wicked resurrected will be reaping "corruption" > Galatians 6:7-8. And in such reaped corrupt state they will not be able to pass judgment.

Indeed. While the universal resurrection is irrespective of righteousness, a new judgment follows that universal resurrection - the Great White Throne Judgment. In Adam's judgment, only a single transgression was judged, and everything from Adam to Eve, to their offspring, to the animals to the plants, and even the ground of the whole earth was judged for a single transgression - that is a universal judgment for a single transgression. However, the GWTJ is an individual judgment where each person is judged according to their own deeds. When Adam's judgment is abolished, it results in a universal resurrection so that all may face individual judgments of the GWTJ.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Yes, all will be resurrected, but ones will be reaping differently.

Yes, I agree. That is because the GWTJ is an individual judgment.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

So the final judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment - is an individual judgment (many transgressions), whereas Adam's judgment was a universal judgment (single transgression). Adam's judgment is abolished resulting in the universal resurrection of everyone who died under that judgment so that each person may be judged individually.

As long as there were no righteous people, a universal judgment was JUST. But as soon as a single, righteous person appears, it renders a universal judgment UNJUST, and so the universal judgment had to be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. The individual judgments separate the righteous from the wicked.

 

[linux.poet]

MOD HAT ON​

This thread has been moved from Christian Philosophy and Ethics to Controversial Christian Theology. ​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Der Alte]

*** The mechanism for that destruction is the nullification of Adam's death judgment.

Rom 5:18 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

1Co 15:22 NASB95 - 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

In these two passages we see that just as there was a universal, corporate judgment in Adam, there is an identical universal, corporate repeal of that judgment in Christ. The same "all" who are condemned and die in Adam are resurrected because of Christ. The mechanism for this is the nullification, repeal, or vacatur of Adam's Original Sin death judgment.
***

Now let's read 1 Cor 15:22 in context.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23​

(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.​

(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's [in Christ] at his coming.​

All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind is descended from Adam. But all mankind are NOT inherently in Christ that requires a conscious decision in this life. And vs. 23 clearly shows it does NOT refer to all mankind. "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming..." Only those who are disciples of Christ when He comes, NOT all mankind.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Matthew 25:41​

(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Dissecting matters of sin while bypassing the theological elephant in the room, the devil and his messengers, will always yield only partial information on the subject

All have present tense sin
Sin is of the devil

Divide on these lines and things clear up considerably

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We are all naturally led to ignore that we are engaged in battle, internally, with an agency that is not us nor is it mankind

And those adverse agents can never speak truthfully.

Can you?

 

[Gup20]

Now let's read 1 Cor 15:22 in context.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's [in Christ] at his coming.

All mankind is "in Adam" because all mankind is descended from Adam. But all mankind are NOT inherently in Christ that requires a conscious decision in this life.

In the context you've specified, where do you find the word "descended?"

It seems to me the point Paul is making is that of sequential order. Adam is the first of all who died, and Christ is the first of all who have been resurrected. Death came by a man, and life came by a man. It may be just as accurate to say the same group of "ALL" who died corporately in Adam are the same group of "ALL" who are corporately justified back to life in Christ.

By verses like Acts 24:15 we know that resurrection is not exclusive to believers in Christ, but that both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected.

 

[Gup20]

Dissecting matters of sin while bypassing the theological elephant in the room, the devil and his messengers, will always yield only partial information on the subject

All have present tense sin
Sin is of the devil

Divide on these lines and things clear up considerably

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We are all naturally led to ignore that we are engaged in battle, internally, with an agency that is not us nor is it mankind

And those adverse agents can never speak truthfully.

Can you?

Act 24:15 NASB95 - 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Do you believe that only the righteous are resurrected? The point of my post is to say that all people are resurrected from Adam's corporate death judgment so that they can face the individual death judgment of the Great White Throne Judgment where they will be sorted according to faith in Christ.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Christ's free gift of righteousness does not cover the SINGLE transgressions (Adam's corporate judgment) but covers MANY transgressions (individual judgment).

The Devil and his messengers have been destined for the Lake of fire. All of those who are his seed (Gen 3:15, Jhn 8:44) will share in his fate.

 

[Der Alte]

In the context you've specified, where do you find the word "descended?"

It seems to me the point Paul is making is that of sequential order. Adam is the first of all who died, and Christ is the first of all who have been resurrected. Death came by a man, and life came by a man. It may be just as accurate to say the same group of "ALL" who died corporately in Adam are the same group of "ALL" who are corporately justified back to life in Christ.

By verses like Acts 24:15 we know that resurrection is not exclusive to believers in Christ, but that both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected.

Are you unaware that all mankind did in fact descend from Adam? There is no other first man for anyone to descend from.
Seems you keep ignoring the fact that Paul said "in Christ shall all be made alive." Paul did not say "all shall be made alive in Christ. " as some folks try to make it say. To be "in Christ" doesn't just happen it requires a conscious informed decision by each person in this life. See e.g.

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Doesn't Jesus know He is supposed to save all mankind?

 

[Gup20]

Are you unaware that all mankind did in fact descend from Adam?

I agree, all mankind is descended from Adam. Yet this does not answer the question of where descent is delineated in 1Co 15 as the primary factor in death being passed. The term "descended" does not appear in 1Co 15. In fact, if you read Genesis 3 you will see there was a universal curse put upon Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, and the ground of the whole earth. The ground, plants, and animals all preceded Adam in creation and were not descended from Adam, yet ALL experienced death as a result of Adam's single transgression.

IN CHRIST we see a restoration of ALL the things universally and corporately cursed in Adam. For example:

Isa 11:1-10 NASB95 - 1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. 3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; 4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. 5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. 6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10 Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.​

As a result of Christ, there is not only a restoration of Adam and his descendants, but of the animals and the earth itself. Do the animals inherit their redemption in Christ because of descent from Adam? No. Are the animals "atoned for" in Christ? No. Yet, there is a restoration of the animals from Adam's judgment because of Christ as we can see in Isa 11 above.

So it is more accurate to say that just as there was a corporate effect of ALL things in Adam, there is also a corporate effect of ALL things in Christ. Just as there was a universal curse which affected everything because of Adam, there is a universal blessing which affected everything because of Christ insomuch as because of Christ, Adam's universal, corporate judgment has been nullified and vacated so that individual judgments may take its place. As long as there are none who are righteous... not even one... a corporate, universal judgment is sufficient. But as soon as a single, righteous One appears, it means a universal, corporate judgment is no longer sufficient. So that universal corporate judgment has to be nullified, and in place of that judgment we must have a new, individual judgment which can separate the righteous from the wicked. In abolishing Adam's judgement, ALL that was affected by his judgment (Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground of the whole earth) is restored so that they may face individual judgments. In the individual judgments of the GWTJ, some will be judged as righteous (those with faith in Christ), an some will be judged as unrighteous (those without faith in Christ). Because final judgment (the GWTJ) follows the universal resurrection, Universalism (universal salvation) is not implicated by a universal resurrection. You will have a new judgment SUBSEQUENT to the universal resurrection of all things which will condemn many to eternal damnation.

Rom 8:20-22 NASB95 - 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Do you believe that only the righteous are resurrected? The point of my post is to say that all people are resurrected from Adam's corporate death judgment so that they can face the individual death judgment of the Great White Throne Judgment where they will be sorted according to faith in Christ.

Are you including devils in the above formula? Which was my original observation.

I believe all people and all devils are "resurrected," some to eternal life and some to the LoF. If your formula includes devils then who goes to the LoF should be obvious

As to faith in Christ being the measurement, I'd point out that Paul tells us in Romans 11:26-32 that all of Israel shall be saved, even those who are enemies of the Gospel. So there's a slight hole in your theory there.

And, we know faith "works" through love, Gal. 5:6. We also know those who love both know God and are born of God, 1 John 4:7. So putting ridiculously tight filters on this subject isn't really all that beneficial to your neighbors

 

[Gup20]

Are you including devils in the above formula? Which was my original observation.

I do not include devils because devils are not included in Adam's judgment. The serpent - which is a creature created for this world - was used by the devil and was judged, but the devil himself was judged prior to Adam's judgment with an entirely separate judgment which is unaffected by the rescinding of Adam's judgment.

As to faith in Christ being the measurement, I'd point out that Paul tells us in Romans 11:26-32 that all of Israel shall be saved, even those who are enemies of the Gospel. So there's a slight hole in your theory there.

The Jews have been judicially blinded and hardened.

Jhn 12:37-40 NASB95 - 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, [yet] they were not believing in Him. 38 [This was] to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."​

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Here we see the REASON they could not believe is because they had been blinded and hardened. But in that same passage you quoted (Rom 11) we see the remedy to that hardening.

Rom 11:4, 7-8, 10, 15, 20, 23, 25-27 NASB95 - 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." ... 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." ... 10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." ... 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will [their] acceptance be but life from the dead? ... 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; ... 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. ... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery so that you will not be wise in your own estimation that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."​

Here we see that they were judged with blindness and hardening until the fullness of Gentiles has come in. Then God will remove their blindness and they will believe in Jesus and through that faith, all of Israel will be saved. The "deliverer who will come from Zion & take away their sins" is Jesus.

Isa 35:5 NASB95 - 5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.​

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Zec 12:10 NASB95 - 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.​

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God does not plan to leave them blind and hardened. They will remember the faith of Abraham in Jesus Christ. Faith has always been the basis of Israel's covenant with God from the very beginning.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

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Rom 4:16-18 NASB95 - 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE."

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Gal 3:16 NASB95 - 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

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Jhn 8:39, 56 NASB95 - 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."​

God gave Abraham righteousness for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ 430 years before the Law of Moses was given. Therefore the righteousness which comes through faith stands apart from the righteousness based on the law, and is not conditional on the law. For which part of the Law of Moses did Abraham follow to be declared righteous for his faith? None of it... it had not yet been given. Therefore, the foundation for righteousness in the Abrahamic covenant is faith, not works of the law. For Abraham was an uncircumcised gentile when he believed the gospel (at age 75) and was credited with righteousness, and was not even circumcised until he was 99 years old.

So the hole in my theory may not be so wide as you have imagined.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I do not include devils because devils are not included in Adam's judgment.

I'd beg to look to Mark 4:15 on this subject

Immediately after God blessed Adam and Eve Satan entered their heart to sin.

God Himself blamed the serpent and cursed the serpent for their deceptions by stating "because thou hast done this-"

Any discussions of sin and judgment must therefore include the real perp.

In any case sins are not counted against people so your angle is a dead end:

2 Cor. 5:19

that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

We're also advised we're no better than any other sinners, Romans 3:9 so double standards don't work

 

[Gup20]

I'd beg to look to Mark 4:15 on this subject

Immediately after God blessed Adam and Eve Satan entered their heart to sin.

Ok, so you indict Satan in responsibility for Adam's sin. Not really. Eve was deceived, but Adam was not deceived. However, this is not what I said... I didn't say Satan was involved in causing Adam to sin, I said Satan was not punished by Adam's judgment.

God judged the earth with death. It is that death judgment which is nullified by Christ's appearing. Since that judgment did not contain any judgments against the Devil, a repeal of that judgment has no effect on the Devil and his angels. They had ALREADY been judged prior to Adam's judgment. Their fate was predetermined before Adam sinned and before Adam's judgment.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Ok, so you indict Satan in responsibility for Adam's sin

The scriptures do, as previously noted. "All" have (present tense) sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and many others of course.

That's why it's possible to actually love all our neighbors and resist the tempter, the devil in everyone including ourselves, simultaneously.

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38. IF you'd like to make the claim that God bore a sinner as a son, jump right in

I didn't say Satan was involved in causing Adam to sin, I said Satan was not punished by Adam's judgment.

Please see previous 2 Cor. 5:19. Sins are not counted against people.

That only leaves one avenue left to count. The devils.

Since that judgment did not contain any judgments against the Devil, a repeal of that judgment has no effect on the Devil and his angels. They had ALREADY been judged prior to Adam's judgment. Their fate was predetermined before Adam sinned and before Adam's judgment.

Why the insistence on judging Adam and not yourself or every person for that matter?

We are all under the same problem, God bound, no less:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Bypassing the counters to your claims doesn't make them go away fwiw. And there are a hundred more behind these. Just checking your depth of understandings at this point. And you're leaving quite a bit behind already, unaddressed

 

[Gup20]

Adam was God's son, Luke 3:38. IF you'd like to make the claim that God bore a sinner as a son, jump right in

Not salient.

Please see previous 2 Cor. 5:19. Sins are not counted against people.

I believe you are ignoring the context.

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

The judgment seat of Christ is INDIVIDUAL judgments where each person is individually recompensed for their own deeds. Conversely, Adam's judgment was a universal, corporate judgment where Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground of the whole earth were all judged for Adam's single transgression.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Here we see that for a SINGLE transgression resulted in condemnation. However, Christ is applied to "MANY transgressions" meaning individual judgments, not the universal, corporate judgment of Adam. So the context of 2Co 5:19 is individual judgment, not the corporate, universal judgment of Adam. What would happen if the "single transgression" judgment of Adam were ever forgiven or repealed? It would result in a reversal of all who died because of that judgment. That is what the universal resurrection is - a nullification of Adam's corporate judgment so that individual judgments may take its place. That is what Christ's appearing established. As long as there are none righteous, not even one, a universal corporate judgment is JUST and justified. But as soon as a single, righteous one appears, it renders a universal corporate judgment UNJUST and UNJUSTIFIED, and so it must be repealed and in its place we must have individual judgments to separate the righteous from the wicked. That is what the judgment seat of Christ or Great White Thone Judgment is -- the individual judgment.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So Adam's first death is nullified resulting in the sea, death, and Hades giving up all their dead. That is a universal resurrection. Then, just as 2Co 5:10 says, EACH ONE is judged individually according to their deeds. Those who are judged as unrighteous then experience the second death, the Lake of Fire. The lake of fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Mat 25:41 NASB95 - 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Rev 19:20 NASB95 - 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 NASB95 - 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Jhn 8:39, 44, 56 NASB95 - 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."

Gen 3:15 NASB95 - 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Just as the seed of Abraham are destined to inherit Abraham's blessing (eternal life) when they do as their father did (believe the gospel), the seed of the Devil qualify as his seed when they do as he did (rebel against God) and inherit his curse and destiny (the Lake of Fire).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Not salient.

God being Adam's Father and the Father of all people is not salient?

I'd call "not salient" curtly dismissive because there is no reasonable counter observation available.

We could cut to the chase on this matter by saying your positions cling to false notions of freewill that also falsely conclude that God is forced to value people's decisions in order to reward them.

I believe you are ignoring the context.

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Let's stop on this one for a brief moment and recognize that we ALL do both good and evil. It's never been a one or the other proposition for anyone other than God Himself in the flesh.

Can we at least do an honest AMEN?

The judgment seat of Christ is INDIVIDUAL judgments where each person is individually recompensed for their own deeds. Conversely, Adam's judgment was a universal, corporate judgment where Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground of the whole earth were all judged for Adam's single transgression.

See above. Everyone has done evil, period. There is no legitimate position of "our evil" is off the hook while the evil of others is not off the hook.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Here we see that for a SINGLE transgression resulted in condemnation. However, Christ is applied to "MANY transgressions" meaning individual judgments, not the universal, corporate judgment of Adam. So the context of 2Co 5:19 is individual judgment, not the corporate, universal judgment of Adam. What would happen if the "single transgression" judgment of Adam were ever forgiven or repealed? It would result in a reversal of all who died because of that judgment. That is what the universal resurrection is - a nullification of Adam's corporate judgment so that individual judgments may take its place. That is what Christ's appearing established. As long as there are none righteous, not even one, a universal corporate judgment is JUST and justified. But as soon as a single, righteous one appears, it renders a universal corporate judgment UNJUST and UNJUSTIFIED, and so it must be repealed and in its place we must have individual judgments to separate the righteous from the wicked. That is what the judgment seat of Christ or Great White Thone Judgment is -- the individual judgment.

IF the intent was to not count sins against Adam Paul should have named him in 2 Cor. 5:19 when saying sins are not counted against people (they're not, just as it says.)

However the continued notions that you forget to include in your positions is that the devils are involved with every sin that has ever transpired in "mankind," starting with Adam and Eve and continuing in everyone else other than God Himself in the flesh, and THEY are not and never will be forgiven.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So Adam's first death is nullified resulting in the sea, death, and Hades giving up all their dead. That is a universal resurrection. Then, just as 2Co 5:10 says, EACH ONE is judged individually according to their deeds. Those who are judged as unrighteous then experience the second death, the Lake of Fire. The lake of fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Are you promoting soul sleep above? Where everyone simply sleeps til some future resurrection? I reject soul sleep fwiw. It doesn't work.

Just as the seed of Abraham are destined to inherit Abraham's blessing (eternal life) when they do as their father did (believe the gospel), the seed of the Devil qualify as his seed when they do as he did (rebel against God) and inherit his curse and destiny (the Lake of Fire).

Well, now your claims may get a little juicier. Do you believe some people are devils?

 

[Gup20]

God being Adam's Father and the Father of all people is not salient?

Correct.

I didn't say Satan was involved in causing Adam to sin, I said Satan was not punished by Adam's judgment.

I'd call "not salient" curtly dismissive because there is no reasonable counter observation available.

IF you'd like to make the claim that God bore a sinner as a son, jump right in

You are arguing against a position which I never took. This is why your argument is not salient. You are arguing against a position you invited me to take so that you could argue against it. Therefore, I said to you that line of reasoning wasn't salient to the conversation.

We could cut to the chase on this matter by saying your positions cling to false notions of freewill

Not salient. I never made any claims regarding free will.

Let's stop on this one for a brief moment and recognize that we ALL do both good and evil. It's never been a one or the other proposition for anyone other than God Himself in the flesh.

The argument I made was that God was making individual judgments (as opposed to corporate or universal judgments) for the good or bad deeds they have individually committed. The distinction in my argument was between individual vs corporate judgement. Yes, a logical presupposition for my argument is that individuals commit both good and evil deeds. But why have you chosen to focus on this rather than the actual claim that there are distinctly different types of judgments: corporate judgments vs individual judgments? How would the inverse of your claim regarding all of us committing both good and evil deeds have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not the judgment seat of Christ were comprise of a corporate judgment or individual judgments?

Everyone has done evil, period. There is no legitimate position of "our evil" is off the hook while the evil of others is not off the hook.

This is not a claim I've made. My claim was that in Adam there was a corporate, universal judgment where Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, and the ground of the whole earth were judged with death as a result of Adam's single transgression. That is a universal, corporate judgment. However, the judgment seat of Christ, unlike Adam's corporate judgment, is an individual judgment where each person's own actions are judged for that individual alone. I specified that Adam's corporate judgment is rendered UNJUST and nullified or abolished as soon as a single, righteous person (Christ) comes along and demonstrates a corporate, universal judgment is insufficient. As long as every person was s sinner, a corporate judgment was JUST. But as soon as you have an actual righteous person, that corporate judgment must be abolished and in its place we must have individual judgments.

How have individual judgments let someone "off the hook?" Rather, it only serves to deepen the individual responsibility when there is an individual judgment. The only thing that lets anyone "off the hook" is when their faith in Christ results in them being clothed in Christ's righteousness during the individual judgment.

Are you promoting soul sleep above? Where everyone simply sleeps til some future resurrection? I reject soul sleep fwiw. It doesn't work.

Again, not salient. I made no claims regarding soul sleep. It is irrelevant to my argument. The notion of what someone is doing or is aware of between death and resurrection is agnostic to what judgment killed them or what mechanism resurrected them. My argument was that Adam's corporate death judgment is the reason they died, and the vacatur of Adam's death judgment is the reason they are resurrected. What they did in the meantime is irrelevant to my argument.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You are arguing against a position which I never took. This is why your argument is not salient. You are arguing against a position you invited me to take so that you could argue against it. Therefore, I said to you that line of reasoning wasn't salient to the conversation.

Your position dictates that God has His children/sinners and He Fathered them. Has nothing to do with whether you care for the logical conclusion of your own position.

Not salient. I never made any claims regarding free will.

Again, your position dictates this as well, rewarding or excusing some people even though they sinned whilst condemning other sinning people. Not only is such a position freewill based, but is aka "works salvation" rewarding some people sinners for their efforts.

My claim was that in Adam there was a corporate, universal judgment where Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, and the ground of the whole earth were judged with death as a result of Adam's single transgression

Showed previously that God Himself bound everyone with disobedience and showed that disobedience to be directly linked to Satan, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

You're welcome to bypass these direct statements and connects but it doesn't help your positional claims

Rather, it only serves to deepen the individual responsibility when there is an individual judgment.

Exactly. The above position is works salvation, no question about it. Why not just come out of the closet and admit it?

FWIW no one, no not one, has ever responsibly made themselves less of a sinner or sinless, just so we're clear on that count.

The notion of what someone is doing or is aware of between death and resurrection is agnostic to what judgment killed them or what mechanism resurrected them.

Everyone dies because of sin, regardless, Romans 8:10. Til the end anyway when the mop up operation is done 1 Cor. 15:51-52

And of course to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord: 2 Cor. 5:8

Jesus was also clear that all people shall be drawn unto Him and none of those will be cast out: John 12:32, John 6:37

I'm not a fan of works salvation positions just so you know. Nothing personal

 

[Gup20]

Your position dictates that God has His children/sinners and He Fathered them. Has nothing to do with whether you care for the logical conclusion of your own position.

Again, your position dictates this as well, rewarding or excusing some people even though they sinned whilst condemning other sinning people. Not only is such a position freewill based, but is aka "works salvation" rewarding some people sinners for their efforts.

Showed previously that God Himself bound everyone with disobedience and showed that disobedience to be directly linked to Satan, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

You're welcome to bypass these direct statements and connects but it doesn't help your positional claims

Exactly. The above position is works salvation, no question about it. Why not just come out of the closet and admit it?

FWIW no one, no not one, has ever responsibly made themselves less of a sinner or sinless, just so we're clear on that count.

Everyone dies because of sin, regardless, Romans 8:10. Til the end anyway when the mop up operation is done 1 Cor. 15:51-52

And of course to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord: 2 Cor. 5:8

Jesus was also clear that all people shall be drawn unto Him and none of those will be cast out: John 12:32, John 6:37

I'm not a fan of works salvation positions just so you know. Nothing personal

Nothing in your post is on topic. If you want to engage in faith vs works discussions, free will discussions, or your Calvinistic/Reformed theology talking points, start a new thread and tag me in it. The topic here is Original Sin and universal resurrection.