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CAN YOU HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

guevaraj

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The instructions in the New covenant are put directly into our minds. It doesn't look to me like it's done in letters :heart:
Brother, the only guaranteed word of God is through the prophets or through the words of Jesus conveyed to us through the disciples. Paul was a prophet who had not walked with Jesus like the other disciples. To understand what Paul is saying, one must keep in mind that the “Spirit” Paul is referring to is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. In my own words, what Paul is comparing is the brief instructions in the letters, which were insufficient for the Jews to master compared to what we have now after Jesus, the complete example in the life of Jesus of how to obey the letters, so that we can obey more completely now after Jesus than the Jews did with only the letters and without a complete example to follow in Jesus. Here is the Google translation of the Greek you posted.

Who also hath made us ministers of a new testament, not of the letter (written laws), but of the spirit (Jesus as our model spirit to do likewise as one would see ourselves in a mirror): for the letter killeth (no forgiveness for failure to obey the written law), but the spirit giveth life. (as many forgivenesses as we need to allow growth through practice like when one learns to play the piano through years of practice, a mastery not pasible in one sitting at the piano). (google translation with added commentary)​

Here is a more recent human translation.

He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws (instructions in stone), but of the Spirit (examples in the life of Jesus). The old written covenant ends in death (disobedience leads to death); but under the new covenant (Jesus as our model Spirit, to do likewise as one would see ourselves in a mirror), the Spirit (Jesus as the image to model as looking in a mirror) gives life (as many forgivenesses as needed to grow in obedience). (2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT with added commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Leaf473

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Brother, the only guaranteed word of God is through the prophets or through the words of Jesus conveyed to us through the disciples. Paul was a prophet who had not walked with Jesus like the other disciples. To understand what Paul is saying, one must keep in mind that the “Spirit” Paul is referring to is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. In my own words, what Paul is comparing is the brief instructions in the letters, which were insufficient for the Jews to master compared to what we have now after Jesus, the complete example in the life of Jesus of how to obey the letters, so that we can obey more completely now after Jesus than the Jews did with only the letters and without a complete example to follow in Jesus. Here is the Google translation of the Greek you posted.

Who also hath made us ministers of a new testament, not of the letter (written laws), but of the spirit (Jesus as our model spirit to do likewise as one would see ourselves in a mirror): for the letter killeth (no forgiveness for failure to obey the written law), but the spirit giveth life. (as many forgivenesses as we need to allow growth through practice like when one learns to play the piano through years of practice, a mastery not pasible in one sitting at the piano). (google translation with added commentary)​

Here is a more recent human translation.

He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant.​
Hello brother!

This is a covenant not of written laws (instructions in stone),
That's right, the New Covenant is not based on instructions written in stone

but of the Spirit (examples in the life of Jesus).
We definitely want to follow Jesus as our example, keeping in mind that he lived under the Old Covenant. He was doing things like being at Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles

The old written covenant ends in death (disobedience leads to death); but under the new covenant (Jesus as our model Spirit, to do likewise as one would see ourselves in a mirror), the Spirit (Jesus as the image to model as looking in a mirror) gives life (as many forgivenesses as needed to grow in obedience). (2 Corinthians 3:6 NLT with added commentary)​
United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Praise the Lord, my brother!
 
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guevaraj

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That's right, the New Covenant is not based on instructions written in stone
Brother, we now have something more complete than the letters in stone, we have the example in Jesus' life of how to obey the letters in stone.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (like excusing our disobedience of the Ten Commandments as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments when Jesus obeyed them). The letter ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life (the removal of Judaism's disobedience). The old way (God's "order" by the prophet Moses), with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey "all" the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed fully the ten commandments for us to do likewise), now that the Holy (added by the translators) Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life? If the old way (written letters etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism not fully obeying "all" the Ten Commandments by replacing them with human "law"), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). So if the old way (written letters etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's human "law") gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's unwillingness to obey all the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to not obey all the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of the failure of replacing God's Commandments with their own human law). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments by substituting them with human "law"). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments more fully than the Jews). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Leaf473

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Brother, we now have something more complete than the letters in stone, we have the example in Jesus' life of how to obey the letters in stone.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (like excusing our disobedience of the Ten Commandments as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments when Jesus obeyed them). The letter ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life (the removal of Judaism's disobedience). The old way (God's "order" by the prophet Moses), with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey "all" the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed fully the ten commandments for us to do likewise), now that the Holy (added by the translators) Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror) gives life? If the old way (written letters etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism not fully obeying "all" the Ten Commandments by replacing them with human "law"), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). So if the old way (written letters etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror), which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's human "law") gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's unwillingness to obey all the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to not obey all the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of the failure of replacing God's Commandments with their own human law). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments by substituting them with human "law"). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments more fully than the Jews). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to image as in a mirror and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to image as in a mirror)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Yes, brother :heart:

We follow Jesus' example, keeping in mind that he lived under the old covenant
 
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guevaraj

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We follow Jesus' example, keeping in mind that he lived under the old covenant
Brother, Paul is telling us that Jesus, as the "Spirit" we are to image as in a mirror, lifted the “veil” of Judaism’s disobedience to the ten commandments written in stone. Judaism taught “man-made ideas” as God’s ten commandments that lead to death, because Judaism sabotaged God’s Ten Commandments to not eliminate fully the "sins" God gave His ten commandments to eliminate fully. Those who follow Jesus can now be completely obedient to the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism’s bad teachings of disobedience to the Ten Commandments as told by Jesus in the following passage.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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sparow

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I was quoting from here :)

The instructions in the New covenant are put directly into our minds. It doesn't look to me like it's done in letters :heart:

The evidence does not support your theory. We are not robots that we need continuous stream of instruction; all instruction is given in the OT, it was the OT that Jesus taught, and fulfilled as fruition. The fruition of the new covenant is to have the Law written by God, on our hearts and minds, which happens at the resurrection, is synonymous with receiving the seal of God.

When you say instructions, what do you have in mind, instruction on how to live your life, or something else?
 
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Leaf473

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Brother, Paul is telling us that Jesus, as the "Spirit" we are to image as in a mirror, lifted the “veil” of Judaism’s disobedience to the ten commandments written in stone. Judaism taught “man-made ideas” as God’s ten commandments that lead to death, because Judaism sabotaged God’s Ten Commandments to not eliminate fully the "sins" God gave His ten commandments to eliminate fully. Those who follow Jesus can now be completely obedient to the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism’s bad teachings of disobedience to the Ten Commandments as told by Jesus in the following passage.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Hello, brother!

Jesus also said to tithe mint and garden herbs


May the peace and comfort that Jesus gives me always with you :heart:
 
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Leaf473

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The evidence does not support your theory. We are not robots that we need continuous stream of instruction; all instruction is given in the OT, it was the OT that Jesus taught, and fulfilled as fruition. The fruition of the new covenant is to have the Law written by God, on our hearts and minds, which happens at the resurrection, is synonymous with receiving the seal of God.

When you say instructions, what do you have in mind, instruction on how to live your life, or something else?
I see that God's instructions, (by that I mean all of the laws in the Old Testament, his Torah or ways) have been put in my mind and written on my heart

So maybe we are looking at different evidence?

Of course, they are not put there in letters, but the principles of those instructions are ingrained :) :heart:
 
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sparow

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I see that God's instructions, (by that I mean all of the laws in the Old Testament, his Torah or ways) have been put in my mind and written on my heart

So maybe we are looking at different evidence?

Of course, they are not put there in letters, but the principles of those instructions are ingrained :) :heart:

One can only debate what the Bible says and means, whether one has entered into the covenant only God would know.
 
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ralliann

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What is GRACE for?
Eternal life in the next life and the next world. The death that all men die in Adam.
How can you have God's GRACE without God's LAW?
If you mean the covenant law from Moses.
Ask Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. {keep … : Heb. keep to do them }
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The law Abraham kept

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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Leaf473

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One can only debate what the Bible says and means,
I quoted scriptures here
I was quoting from here :)

The instructions in the New covenant are put directly into our minds. It doesn't look to me like it's done in letters :heart:

And you responded with
The evidence does not support your theory
Are you saying that you do believe that letters are put into our minds and written on our hearts?

...whether one has entered into the covenant only God would know.
We can't know if we are in the New Covenant?
 
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sparow

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I quoted scriptures here


And you responded with

Are you saying that you do believe that letters are put into our minds and written on our hearts?


We can't know if we are in the New Covenant?
I seem to have misunderstood your previous post. There may be only one correct way, but there are more than two ways for consideration.

Flesh and blood have to write the Law on its own heart and mind, when God writes the Law on our hearts and mind we will no longer be flesh and blood. The letter of the Law needs to be digested and processed, from where we grow into harvestable fruit. If we do away with the letter of the Law, the Law and the prophets, we deprive ourselves of nutrients and stop growing.

What is the new covenant? The new covenant can be viewed as a period of time, like we could read in one of the Talmuds, "two thousand years without the Law, two thousand years under the Law and two thousand years under the Messiah". The new covenant is another chance for the lost sheep of Israel and Judah. The new covenant is also where THE COVENANT goes to the Gentiles; here we have the dilemma of, is the covenant new or is it renewed; the translators could have gone either way.

Time wise, we are in the new covenant era, if we are in the era of a renewed covenant, an "entering in" is required, which is what baptism is all about.
 
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Leaf473

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I seem to have misunderstood your previous post. There may be only one correct way, but there are more than two ways for consideration.

Flesh and blood have to write the Law on its own heart and mind, when God writes the Law on our hearts and mind we will no longer be flesh and blood. The letter of the Law needs to be digested and processed, from where we grow into harvestable fruit. If we do away with the letter of the Law, the Law and the prophets, we deprive ourselves of nutrients and stop growing.

What is the new covenant? The new covenant can be viewed as a period of time, like we could read in one of the Talmuds, "two thousand years without the Law, two thousand years under the Law and two thousand years under the Messiah". The new covenant is another chance for the lost sheep of Israel and Judah. The new covenant is also where THE COVENANT goes to the Gentiles; here we have the dilemma of, is the covenant new or is it renewed; the translators could have gone either way.

Time wise, we are in the new covenant era, if we are in the era of a renewed covenant, an "entering in" is required, which is what baptism is all about.
I don't think mind there means brain

Just like heart doesn't mean the physical pumping organ

this people draws near with their mouth and honors me with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me Isaiah 29:13
 
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sparow

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I don't think mind there means brain

Just like heart doesn't mean the physical pumping organ

this people draws near with their mouth and honors me with their lips, but they have removed their heart far from me Isaiah 29:13
A man's body seems to have three parts, there is the physical, water, carbon and many other elements, then there is life or breath, which is complicated, then there is the immaterial part of man, thought, reason, memory, logic, mathematical skill, emotion and so on, also called the soul.

The written word is physical or material, paper and ink, the meaning derived from scripture is immaterial, so too are the metaphors, heart and mind, immaterial. It was a requirement in the OT to have the Law written on one's heart and mind; I wonder how many people do not understand what that means; what is written is immaterial, where it is written is probably material
 
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Leaf473

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A man's body seems to have three parts, there is the physical, water, carbon and many other elements, then there is life or breath, which is complicated, then there is the immaterial part of man, thought, reason, memory, logic, mathematical skill, emotion and so on, also called the soul.

The written word is physical or material, paper and ink, the meaning derived from scripture is immaterial, so too are the metaphors, heart and mind, immaterial. It was a requirement in the OT to have the Law written on one's heart and mind; I wonder how many people do not understand what that means; what is written is immaterial, where it is written is probably material
Well, we see that in the New Covenant God is the one doing the writing

I think where the writing is done is immaterial, as in not physical

For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? 1 Corinthians 2
 
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sparow

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Well, we see that in the New Covenant God is the one doing the writing

I think where the writing is done is immaterial, as in not physical

For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? 1 Corinthians 2

I too have difficulty expressing myself.

Are you saying that the new covenant God is different to the old covenant God. The only thing the OT God wrote is the Ten Commandments, Christ does not seem to have written anything, we depend on the skill of the prophets, and the skill of the mathematicians who copy the scriptures and then the translator/interpreters and our ability to comprehend is limited and varied, as it should be.

I disagree with 1 Cor 2:11
 
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Leaf473

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I too have difficulty expressing myself.
Are you saying that the new covenant God is different to the old covenant God.
No, I'm not saying that :heart:

The only thing the OT God wrote is the Ten Commandments,
People often speak of God writing the Bible, meaning the God is the author, the inspiration :heart:

In the New Covenant, God "puts" and "writes" his ways in us :)

Christ does not seem to have written anything, we depend on the skill of the prophets, and the skill of the mathematicians who copy the scriptures and then the translator/interpreters and our ability to comprehend is limited and varied, as it should be.
I disagree with 1 Cor 2:11
Well, if we don't agree on what the Bible says, then I don't think we can have a bible-based discussion

We can talk about how things feel to us :heart: It feels to me like God has put his instructions deep within me

Peace be with you!
 
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FredVB

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The commandments in the law which God gave show what sin is, and sin is separating any from God. God's grace is needed and with Christ sent from God and the way of atonement provided through his all he did for it the way of deliverance is provided, with faith that is with our repentance that has it possible through Christ. This is not removing us from commandments but from judgment with the law. The sins they show are such for us to turn from in coming to God to willingly live in God's will for us.
 
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Bro.T

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The commandments in the law which God gave show what sin is, and sin is separating any from God. God's grace is needed and with Christ sent from God and the way of atonement provided through his all he did for it the way of deliverance is provided, with faith that is with our repentance that has it possible through Christ. This is not removing us from commandments but from judgment with the law. The sins they show are such for us to turn from in coming to God to willingly live in God's will for us.
When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the animal sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The point that is not understood is that we all have sin, but until Jesus came, there was no way of getting out from under your sins. So God institute a Priesthood and laws that went with the priesthood to control the sinning, and so the Lord use animal Sacrificial laws, even though it could not remove sins.

When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.
 
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