Free will and determinism

[Mark Quayle]

To some people subconscious comes off as uncontrollable, so determining how it is perceived in context of "this conversation" is helpful.

Lol, took me a second to figure out why you used the word, "determining", there

 

[Jo555]

Because for some Christians I believe what they first hear is that they don't really have a choice, therefore, for them, it paints God in a false / dark light and they don't like it because they know better. They know He is a good and loving Spirit and don't like others calling Him ugly when He is beautiful.

Sometimes we know something in spirit because it has been revealed to us by God's Spirit, but we don't fully understand the mechanics of how something operates so our first response may be reactive.

An example may be someone comments that your wife's dress is tight and your first response at hearing that may be that they are calling her fat. Well, that don't sit well with you because you know she isn't fat, her dress is just tight and how dare they insult your wife's figure. Loving her, your first response would be to come to her defense.

But they never called her fat, they just commented that her dress was tight. Maybe they were just trying to get you to see that, or, maybe they were trying to plant a seed that she is fat.

And Christians plant seeds too. Seed planting is a common occurrence in life.

So which is it? That is to be decided by each individual and they will come to believe by what they put their faith in more.

Reminds me, i need to pass on making a cake tonight.

Sorry folks, i won't be serving cake tonight.

We humans have also been equipped with a sort of sixth sense, if you will. No, not like, "l see dead people." It is more like an internal receptor where we can pick up these invisible signals being sent off from one person to another. Let us call it discernment.

Sometimes we are not necessarily reacting to another's words, but the signals they are sending off to us, and we react more to the signals rather than their words.

But is the problem with the signal, or our receptor? Maybe it is both. Maybe there is no problem here.

From a Christian's perspective, we take our cues from the Spirit.

No discerners here, correct? Otherwise I'm in trouble, because the cause of causations has been the influential factor influencing deterministic, determinism. Peter Piper picked a peck of pickles.

Where am I?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes.

And thing is Mark, as I am sure you know. God may impress on me to stay out of politics, but He may impress on you to run for office. There really is a difference between being led by partaking of the knowledge of good and evil, and being led by his Spirit.

You are what i call a very valuable smarty pants. Now if i always knew what you are saying ... But I'm learning and from what i can make of it, I'm digging it.

Yesterday I had to watch church online. The preacher was explicit, mentioning names and who should be supported by the church and everything! Spent maybe 20 minutes on the horrific results of Democrat politics and rule, re the LA fire. At the end of his tirade, he says something like, "Ok, well, that's it. God bless you all", and starts to walk off from the podium. He did turn around and preach his sermon which was also punctuated with comments and examples from recent events.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We humans have also been equipped with a sort of sixth sense, if you will. No, not like, "l see dead people." It is more like an internal receptor where we can pick up these invisible signals being sent off from one person to another. Let is call it discernment.

Sometimes we are not necessarily reacting to another's words, but the signals they are sending off to us, and we react more to the signals rather than their words.

But is the problem with the signal, or our receptor. Maybe it is both. Maybe there is no problem here.

From a Christian's perspective, we take our cues from the Spirit.

No discerners here correct, otherwise I'm in trouble, because the cause of causations has been the influential factor influencing deterministic, determinism. Peter Piper picked a peck of pickles.

Where am I?

Where were you? Where did you last leave yourself? Should I call, maybe?

 

[Jo555]

Where were you? Where did you last leave yourself? Should I call, maybe?

Actually, I'm starting to understand the lingo. I'm not sure whether I should be thrilled or frightened.

Oh, to have discernment to discern what discerning would call for. Watch out. I'm getting proficiently dangerous. Another tool in my arsenal.

 

[Chesterton]

So...you are free (assuming that you are not coerced) in making a decision (using, obviously the power of reasoning) to decide between two or more options. And at least one of those options will have determined your decision. It will be that which you prefer.

I'm free to decide but my decision was determined by something other than me. You're just flat out contradicting yourself.

There is a difference because the antecedent conditions are different. The man might have been entirely sane but his wife who wanted a divorce was on board with their kids and he wanted to kill them all and commit suicide. As opposed to him having a mental illness which determined his actions.

But the antecedent conditions are different for every individual. What difference does that make?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'd say uncontrolled as opposed to uncontrollable. The latter implies that you wouldn't be able to stop an unconscious act if you became aware of it (help me, I can't stop playing the intro to Hotel California!). And if you weren't aware of it then defining it as uncontrollable wouldn't make sense.

Subconscious simply means that your frontal lobes, where you do your moment to moment thinking, has passed on a particular task to some other area of the brain. Which is generally the cerebellum: Muscle memory - Wikipedia.

No decisions being made in there.

I have to interrupt here, with something humorous that from time to time pokes its nose into my business. I first really became aware of it in 3rd grade, when I got lost in Miami. I remember wondering how was it possible that my mind was working just fine, yet my body was in abject panic, and wouldn't listen to a word I said! Again, when as a kid, I read CS Lewis, in the first book of his Space Trilogy, writing of a wanderer in distress who comforts himself, something like, "We'll stand by you, old boy!" I realized then that I could identify with that.

A few years ago I was on an assignment, sent halfway around the world to Thailand. I knew that I would be tired out from about 48 hours with no sleep, and my internal time-clock all screwed up, and that 6 hours after arriving, I would have to be ready to go to work, cogent and alert. So I brought Melatonin sleeping pills with me.

Upon checking in at my hotel --FANCY fancy hotel, too! Huge lobby, marble floors and so many columns that you couldn't see from one end to the other, except by standing in certain places; desk off to the left of the lobby side wall-- the concierge takes my luggage in hand and beckons me to follow him. He shows me how you need a keycard to get into the elevator, or even to go from the stairwell into any floor. We go up to the fifth floor, and he takes me to my room, shows me how the keycard must be slid into its slot in the wall in order for the lights to work, and if it is removed the lights all go out after a fifteen second delay. He shows me the huge bathroom, all glass walls, and how from the tub I could see the rest of the room, including the huge TV.

As soon as the concierge was gone, I took 30 mg of Melatonin --(3 is usually enough to do me)-- and that should've been it, but I saw how DEEP the bathtub was --so deep that I had to be careful climbing over the edge to avoid grievous damage to my worldview-- and I couldn't resist. I filled it with water, but it was too hot, so I drained some of it and ran cold water; the whole time drinking from the minibar (stocked fridge) --I thought it wise to assure that I would fall asleep instead of mind-racing the few hours remaining to me. I placed a few more cocktails on the rim of the tub, on the side where I could look over and see the rest of my room, the TV and so on. As I drank them, I became slowly aware that the water in the tub was still much too hot, and that it was making me feel sick, so I finished my drinks and climbed out, my brain heavy-laden. On my way to the bed, I took the keycard out of its slot and 'fell out' onto the bed, buck naked, and knew no more.

About 5 am, Thailand time, I woke up with an urgent and immediate need to relieve myself, and groping about in the dark, I found the bathroom door, opened it and went in, wondering why the lights were on. As the door closed behind me, I felt, more than heard, a very distinct, "You %*&$#@! IDIOT! NOW LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE!" I had no idea what I was getting after myself about, and remained puzzled as to what had happened, when I realized that the door had locked behind me, and I could not get back into the bedroom. So I'm standing there, looking about, wondering where the toilet was! I finally decide that I had somehow gotten outside my CAMPER (in the USA), of all things, and that the door was locked behind me, but, I saw, there was a small utility closet door just to my left. I opened that door to see pipes and valves and gauges and a very narrow space to the side, but I told myself, "FOOL! You should very well know there is no way to get around that into your room! But I'm not the one to make your decisions for you, and more's the pity, because I'm only an adviser, but %$*(#@! you are a fool!" "Well, maybe, at least I can take a leak over there to the side!" --(I really had to go --BAD)-- "Go ahead, fool! But you know there will be awful consequences! Not the least of which will be public shame!" So I relented.

I thought, "There is another door into my camper toward the back", so I went there and tried it. No-go. Then I realized, "I know where I am --I'm at the Storage Units! I'm in an indoor hallway, with rows of doors to each side, but MAN! what a storage facility! --carpeted floor, sconce lights by each door on wallpapered walls, digital door locks with a key card slot.".....then finally, after wandering the hall for a while to collect intelligence, "OH! (DUH!) Now I know where I am. Standing here in my hotel fifth floor hallway, locked out of my room, and buck naked!" "Well, finally! You utter FOOL! So NOW what are you going to do???" I told myself there was nothing for it but to get the check-in desk to bring up another keycard, but there was no phone. I finally said, "There's nothing for it but to face the music." "...Ya THINK???" (I don't know why that guy is always shouting at me). I remembered then, that if I was going to get into the elevator or even the stairwell, I could not get back up to my floor. But if I delayed much longer, other guests would be waking up, and find me standing there in all my pot-bellied glory. So I hurried unenthusiastically to the elevators and there, across the hallway from the elevators was a table, with--thank God!--newspapers! I grabbed two and put one in front and one behind, (while within myself, I heard someone laughing to derision), and so I went down to the lobby.

At street level, I put my head out the opening door, looking right, looking left, seeing nobody, and crept to the opening into the lobby, thanking God that I could not see anybody nor even see the street outside. I decided I needed to call out, though they probably had been, the whole staff, in the security room watching the monitors and laughing themselves sick. I yelled quietly, urgently, "Hello?" This I repeated maybe 10 times over the next hour or two that probably only marked 5 minutes on the clock. At one point, down the gap between the last row of columns and the wall where the desk was, a young lady walked very deliberately across into the opening at the check-in, not looking my way nor in any way acknowledging my presence.

A minute or so later the original concierge appears from nowhere, holding a keycard in front of him like a talisman, and directs me to the elevator. We go in and he says, in very broken English, a foreign look on his face, "Late night, last night, eh?". I don't remember answering, but I remember hearing myself laughing at me in my head.

I chose not to stand in the opposite corner of the elevator from him --I mean, I didn't want to be weird, y'know,-- so, I stood opposite the door from him, pressing as hard as I could into the wall behind me, while still being cool. I noticed him talking unintelligibly, pointing my way and at the door, which was not closing and which I wished very much to close. It took a bit before I realized there was a row of buttons behind me and my newspaper was pressing against the 'Door Open' button. I relinquished my position, thinking, "This would be really embarrassing, if I was not drunk."

The rest of the story is uneventful; no guests saw me, to my knowledge; he got me to my room and I found my keycard, and finally, in the bathroom, the voice, again, "And who do you think held your pee for you, all this time, Fool ???"

I have yet to find the video on YouTube, but, who knows...

So, yeah, everything is caused. I'm not the only one in my head. But I have to make the decisions, whether I am in possession of all my faculties or not!

 

[Jo555]

Where were you? Where did you last leave yourself? Should I call, maybe?

Actually, I'm starting to understand the lingo. I'm not sure whether I should be thrilled or frightened.

Oh, to have discernment to discern what discerning would call for. What out. I'm getting proficiently dangerous. Another tool in my [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]

Yesterday I had to watch church online. The preacher was explicit, mentioning names and who should be supported by the church and everything! Spent maybe 20 minutes on the horrific results of Democrat politics and rule, re the LA fire. At the end of his tirade, he says something like, "Ok, well, that's it. God bless you all", and starts to walk off from the podium. He did turn around and preach his sermon which was also punctuated with comments and examples from recent events.

Very problematic. The body of Christ needs to be told to listen to the Lord over everyone. Not that He doesn't use others because we know He does, but don't just buy into it at heart without His counsel, if it isn't obvious already that it is off.

Was just telling my sister how I see this as a big problem in the body of Christ, and it has been since the beginning of human existence. I love the book of Jeremiah on this topic. They weren't listening to Him and following after their self indulgent leaders who just fed them from their own lusts, as I recall, so He sent that brute Nebuchadnezzar and his army whom He said they were full of pride and counted on their own strength, but Neb was his deputy, so to speak, to humble his people and turn them back to Him. Yet in time, Neb received his humbling too.

Speaking of which, where is our astute host Bradskii?

Just kidding, me thinks. I may be thrown in the roaring fire soon.

May I mention, Neb is one of my favorite characters in the bible. He cracks me up at times, and loved his relationship with Daniel. God bless Daniel. Daniel saw him for what he was

 

[Jo555]

Actually, I'm starting to understand the lingo. I'm not sure whether I should be thrilled or frightened.

Oh, to have discernment to discern what discerning would call for. What out. I'm getting proficiently dangerous. Another tool in my [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]

Very problematic. The body of Christ needs to be told to listen to the Lord over everyone. Not that He doesn't use others because we know He does, but don't just buy into it at heart without His counsel, if it isn't obvious already that it is off.

Was just telling my sister how I see this as a big problem in the body of Christ, and it has been since the beginning of human existence. I love the book of Jeremiah on this topic. They weren't listening to Him and following after their self indulgent leaders who just fed them from their own lusts, as I recall, so He sent that brute Nebuchadnezzar and his army whom He said they were full of pride and counted on their own strength, but Neb was his deputy, so to speak, to humble his people and turn them back to Him. Yet in time, Neb received his humbling too.

Speaking of which, where is our astute host Bradskii?

Just kidding, me thinks. I may be thrown in the roaring fire soon.

May I mention, Neb is one of my favorite characters in the bible. He cracks me up at times, and loved his relationship with Daniel. God bless Daniel. Daniel saw him for what he was

Point being though, I think the book of Jeremiah is a great book on the topic.

And I love Jeremiah's relationship with God because you know he was a reluctant prophet, not always willing to speak, but he did give the word of the Lord, then they wanted to make him pay for it and wanted his life for it. You can then see Jeremiah's view coming more in line with God's view.

I'm trailing off the original OP, hoping I'm flying above radar, but in case, going to finishing watching the inaugural address so I don't see when I'm shot down. Au Revoir for now.

Going to behave when I return, unless my preference for humor takes presidence over my intentions to behave.

 

[Jo555]

Point being though, I think the book of Jeremiah is a great book on the topic.

And I love Jeremiah's relationship with God because you know he was a reluctant prophet, not always willing to speak, but he did give the word of the Lord, then they wanted to make him pay for it and wanted his life for it. You can then see Jeremiah's view coming more in line with God's view.

I'm trailing off the original OP, hoping I'm flying above radar, but in case, going to finishing watching the inaugural address so I don't see when I'm shot down. Au Revoir for now.

Going to behave when I return, unless my preference for humor takes presidence over my intentions to behave.

Is it intentions, or intent? See what you people have done to me.

Who am I, and what have you done with Jo?

 

[Bradskii]

If someone made a decision to do it, why is it not free will?

Making a decision is not an example of free will. Making a decision that is not determined by any antecedent conditions is free will.

If someone chooses to not work and become homeless, would this be free will? or determinism as well?

What determined their decision? When we know that we'll know why the person chose to do that. We'll know what their preference was. They would always choose what they preferred. So they had no free will in making that choice.

 

[CoreyD]

It's a common scientific process. From here: Karl Popper: Falsification Theory

'Karl Popper’s theory of falsification contends that scientific inquiry should aim not to verify hypotheses but to rigorously test and identify conditions under which they are false.

For a theory to be valid according to falsification, it must produce hypotheses that have the potential to be proven incorrect by observable evidence or experimental results.

Unlike verification, falsification focuses on categorically disproving theoretical predictions rather than confirming them.'

Does that mean you decided that freewill could not be proven false, and therefore resorted to using a red herring to see what you got out of it?
Why did you not use the scientific process on it?
I challenge you to do so.

You can't prove determinism because you'd need to investigate every single event. So the OP is based on 'IF determinism is true...' But you can disprove it by showing one single event that was not caused.

Okay. Disprove freewill.

That's up to you. If you are absolutely sure that determinism is false then you must have at least one example?

No. I think it's only fair that you prove freewill is false, since you came on here cocked sure it is false, and you believe in using the scientific processes.

Correct. It's not like that at all.

How is it different?

All effects have causes. Now give me an example of one that doesn't.

How is that relevant to your argument.
All effects having causes do not render your brain useless... nor mine.

Another example? You haven't given a single one.

Sure I have. You may not know this... or do you,, but from my experience, when an atheist tells a person, they did not give him what he asks for, he usually means, the person did not give him what he will accept.
That is nothing anyone can fix.

I have given examples where decisions are made with no antecedent causes.
Furthermore, I asked you to prove that they were not, and what was your response.... You cannot prove it.
Okay, then prove that freewill cannot exist along with determining factors. You cannot prove that either.

So, what we are looking at here is a case of irrational arguments, followed by unreasonable responses and demands from the one that cannot see that he is not thinking things through reasonably.
Give it some thought.

Imagine someone asks you to show them a spatula.
You take a spatula to them, and they tell you, "That's not a "spatula."

"What?" You say. "It is a spatula."​

"Nope." They insist.

You say, "Okay, prove that it is not a spatula."​

The person says to you. I can't prove that it is not a spatula, because I don't know what a spatula is... but I know you did not bring me a spatula."

You want to facepalm, right?​

That is exactly what you are doing here, sir.
You are asking persons to bring an example of freewill, and when one is brought to you, you say they have not done so. Why? You do not know if it is freewill, because you cannot prove nor disprove freewill.

There are intelligent people on these forums. Would you agree?
Would you want to treat us as if we are 10 years old?

Here is what you said, in black and white.
It [freewill] can't be proved. Because it [freewill] relies on determination.

To prove determination one would have to examine literally everything that has ever happened and show that it was caused by preceding conditions. That's obviously not possible.

So no-one has asked for the claim to be proved. At any time. But what has been asked, more times that you could possibly imagine, is for an example to disprove it, which can easily be done. If the claim is being rejected, (as opposed to being merely hand waved away coupled with a counter claim made that we have free will because 'gee, it's just so obvious') then literally all that is needed is an example where a choice has been made 'that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions'.

So a computer claim that determinism renders free will obsolete, makes it impossible for free will to be proved, even though the one making the computer claim for determinism, being a reality that renders freewill a non reality, cannot disprove, nor prove freewill.

You have not thought this through, and moreover, your reasoning is not rational.
Is it any wonder that your argument also makes rationality void.

The text doesn't say, but it's apparent that he might have been jealous. God gave Abel the thumbs up but denigrated Cain. Jealousy is an incredibly strong emotion. So in the absence of any other information I'd say that determined his action.

So?
Did he have options?
Could he have decided otherwise?
Then he did not have to act on his emotions. Freewill.

I have urges, and I do not always act on those urges.
One's emotions do not determine one's decisions.

It is often said that women are more driven by their emotions, while men use their thinking faculties.
Because our emotions may be fueling desires, we do not have to give in to those desires. We can make a free willed decision to go contrary to those desires. James 1:13-15

But I should point out that your position is not that we can't definitely decide which causal factor was instrumental, but that there were NO causal factors. Which isn't the case here, obviously. As you literally say 'why did other causal factors not determine Cain's decision? and 'there were "causal factors" '.

No. That misrepresents my position.
I am saying that there do not have to be past causal factors, and that even when making decisions, that involve past determining factors, that still does not mean we do not make free willed decisions.
Cain had options, and there were more than one "causal factors" at play.

How do you respond to that fact... was Cain's decision determined by two "determining factors", or more?

I think that you're arguing now simply because you don't like the claim. You don't seem to be following the argument at all. To the point where you are now using examples which support my claim but dismantle yours.

You've made enough distractions in this thread already.
No need to make another. Just address the question.
How does this example support your claim.

I don't like using emoticons, but it is oh so tempting to put a big 'sigh...' right here.

You just gave two antecedent conditions. Your wants and desires, your likes and dislikes are all antecedent conditions. They are some of the main ones you use to make a decision. I'm going to make myself a coffee when I finish typing this because the only tea available is Earl Grey and I do not like drinking it.

Here's two antecedent conditions:
You want to be a lawyer.
Being a lawyer pays well.

Here's another two:
You don't want to be a janitor.
Being a janitor pays badly.

Now you have to make a choice of career based on those 4 conditions. Hey, I know which ones you're going to pick! It'll be the first two. So, and this is the important bit, they will be the antecedent conditions that determined your choice.

It seems you are not aware of the difference between a cause and a condition.
Now would be a good time to educate yourself in this matter, since technology is available to even the youngest of minds.
Don't let this opportunity pass you by.
Difference between a cause and a condition.

What you highlighted, are condition, not causes.
I am making a decision based on the conditions around me, and hence I have various options, from which I make a free willed decision.

After you are educated, respond again, since your post is void, on the basis that it is entirely false.

How can you ask that, and then state this?

You are asking the question, then giving the answer in the very next sentence...

Yes. You are not aware of that.
Which country do you live in?

It was not a question though. It was a statement. hence, no question mark... and an answer was expected.
Are you from around these parts.

Don't tell me... You're bored, right.
I understand. the post is now 161 pages, and you are seeing how wrong you are.
You probably are asking yourself, "How did I make this mistake? i should have given it more thought."

Don't worry. It has happened to all of us. it's a product of imperfection.

Please stop using the term 'prove'. Just keep think 'Popper'. It can't be proved, but it can be disproved. I am claiming that it is true because there is literally no event of which I am aware that wasn't caused by something. Yet again, all you have to do to prove your position is to give a single, solitary, undeniable example from the macro world (which is where we make decisions).

Prove my position? LOL

The questions are becoming more inane...

How in heaven's name can you ask how we prove that we make choices?

Brad. Are you alert?
How does any of this prove you make choices whether free will exists or not.? is asked in response to the poster who is trying to support your claim that "you make choices whether free will exists or not".

Have you forgotten what you said?
The request is to prove that you make choices whether free will exists or not. In other words, your assumption is that free will is not the result of your making choices... and you are to prove that.

Is that too high for you?
Try this.
You made a presumption that choice can exist without free will.
Is that easier?

That should be elementary.

Hang on...are you now admitting that all choices are influenced by knowledge?

LOL. Are you now claiming that knowledge is an antecedent cause?
How much crazier are you willing to make it?
I can keep up.

 

[Bradskii]

Apparently some sales theories say that people make their decision in their subconscious, regardless of what is said, then proceeds with the usual "how to manipulate them" type of talk.

So the theory would apply as follows. You have already decided what you think, words are just an excuse for thinking that.

The scope of this discussion seems to look at the conscious mind making the decisions and it being determined by motives and external stimuli. I guess there's a lot of theories out there.

Yes, I've come across that explained many times. That we subconsciously make a decision and then consciously justify it. I think I remember Daniel Kahneman describing it in his book Thinking Fast And Slow. He said there's Type 1 thinking. Tedious, time consuming rational thought. And type 2, which is subconscious and virtually instinctive. And Type 1 often spends no little time trying to take credit for a Type 2 decision.

We really are determined to believe that we are master's of our own destiny...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Making a decision is not an example of free will. Making a decision that is not determined by any antecedent conditions is free will.

What determined their decision? When we know that we'll know why the person chose to do that. We'll know what their preference was. They would always choose what they preferred. So they had no free will in making that choice.

Okay, so for someone to have a freed will, they first need to be detached from everything, then from that space, make a decision without any other causes influencing said decision.

Easier for children I think.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, I've come across that explained many times. That we subconsciously make a decision and then consciously justify it. I think I remember Daniel Kahneman describing it in his book Thinking Fast And Slow. He said there's Type 1 thinking. Tedious, time consuming rational thought. And type 2, which is subconscious and virtually instinctive. And Type 1 often spends no little time trying to take credit for a Type 2 decision.

We really are determined to believe that we are master's of our own destiny...

Thanks for that.

 

[Jo555]

I have to interrupt here, with something humorous that from time to time pokes its nose into my business. I first really became aware of it in 3rd grade, when I got lost in Miami. I remember wondering how was it possible that my mind was working just fine, yet my body was in abject panic, and wouldn't listen to a word I said! Again, when as a kid, I read CS Lewis, in the first book of his Space Trilogy, writing of a wanderer in distress who comforts himself, something like, "We'll stand by you, old boy!" I realized then that I could identify with that.

A few years ago I was on an assignment, sent halfway around the world to Thailand. I knew that I would be tired out from about 48 hours with no sleep, and my internal time-clock all screwed up, and that 6 hours after arriving, I would have to be ready to go to work, cogent and alert. So I brought Melatonin sleeping pills with me.

Upon checking in at my hotel --FANCY fancy hotel, too! Huge lobby, marble floors and so many columns that you couldn't see from one end to the other, except by standing in certain places; desk off to the left of the lobby side wall-- the concierge takes my luggage in hand and beckons me to follow him. He shows me how you need a keycard to get into the elevator, or even to go from the stairwell into any floor. We go up to the fifth floor, and he takes me to my room, shows me how the keycard must be slid into its slot in the wall in order for the lights to work, and if it is removed the lights all go out after a fifteen second delay. He shows me the huge bathroom, all glass walls, and how from the tub I could see the rest of the room, including the huge TV.

As soon as the concierge was gone, I took 30 mg of Melatonin --(3 is usually enough to do me)-- and that should've been it, but I saw how DEEP the bathtub was --so deep that I had to be careful climbing over the edge to avoid grievous damage to my worldview-- and I couldn't resist. I filled it with water, but it was too hot, so I drained some of it and ran cold water; the whole time drinking from the minibar (stocked fridge) --I thought it wise to assure that I would fall asleep instead of mind-racing the few hours remaining to me. I placed a few more cocktails on the rim of the tub, on the side where I could look over and see the rest of my room, the TV and so on. As I drank them, I became slowly aware that the water in the tub was still much too hot, and that it was making me feel sick, so I finished my drinks and climbed out, my brain heavy-laden. On my way to the bed, I took the keycard out of its slot and 'fell out' on the bed, buck naked, and knew no more.

About 5 am, Thailand time, I woke up with an urgent and immediate need to relieve myself, and groping about in the dark, I found the bathroom door, opened it and went in, wondering why the lights were on. As the door closed behind me, I felt, more than heard, a very distinct, "You %*&$#@! IDIOT! NOW LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE!" I had no idea what I was getting after myself about, and remained puzzled as to what had happened, when I realized that the door had locked behind me, and I could not get back into the bedroom. So I'm standing there, looking about, wondering where the toilet was! I finally decide that I had somehow gotten outside my CAMPER, of all things, and that the door was locked behind me, but, I saw, there was a small utility closet door just to my left. I opened that door to see pipes and valves and gauges and a very narrow space to the side, but I told myself, "FOOL! You should very well know there is no way to get around that into your room! But I'm not the one to make your decisions for you, and more's the pity, because I'm only an adviser, but %$*(#@! you are a fool!" "Well, maybe, at least I can take a leak over there to the side!" --(I really had to go --BAD)-- "Go ahead, fool! But you know there will be awful consequences! Not the least of which will be public shame!" So I relented.

I thought, "There is another door into my camper toward the back", so I went there and tried it. No-go. Then I thought, "I know where I am --I'm at the Storage Units! I'm in an indoor hallway, with rows of doors to each side, but MAN! what a storage facility! --carpeted floor, sconces on wallpapered walls, digital door locks with a key card slot.".....then finally, after wandering the hall for a while to collect intelligence, "OH! (DUH!) Now I know where I am. Standing here in my hotel fifth floor hallway, locked out of my room, and buck naked!" "Well, finally! You utter FOOL! So NOW what are you going to do???" I told myself there was nothing for it but to get the check-in desk to bring up another keycard, but there was no phone. I finally said, "There's nothing for it but to face the music." "...Ya THINK???" (I don't know why that guy is always shouting at me). I remembered then, that if I was going to get into the elevator or even the stairwell, I could not get back up to my floor. But if I delayed much longer, other guests would be waking up, and find me standing there in all my pot-bellied glory. So I hurried to the elevators and there, across the hallway from the elevators was a table, with--thank God!--newspapers! I grabbed two and put one in front and one behind, (while within myself, I heard someone laughing derisively), and so I went down to the lobby.

I put my head out the opening door, looking right, looking left, seeing nobody, and crept to the opening into the lobby, thanking God that I could not see anybody nor even see the street outside. I decided I needed to call out, though they probably had been, the whole staff, in the security room watching the monitors and laughing themselves sick. I yelled quietly, urgently, "Hello?" This I repeated maybe 10 times over the next hour or two that probably only marked 5 minutes on the clock. At one point, down the gap between the last row of columns and the wall where the desk was, a young lady walked very deliberately across into the opening at the check-in, not looking my way nor in any way acknowledging my presence.

A minute or so later the original concierge appears from nowhere, holding a keycard in front of him like a talisman, and directs me to the elevator. We go in and he says, in very broken English, a foreign look on his face, "Late night, last night, eh?". I don't remember answering, but I remember hearing myself laughing at me in my head.

I chose not to stand in the opposite corner of the elevator from him --I mean, I didn't want to be weird-- so, I stood opposite the door from him, pressing as hard as I could into the wall behind me, while still being cool. I noticed him talking unintelligibly, pointing my way and at the door, which was not closing and which I wished very much to close. It took a bit before I realized there was a row of buttons behind me and my newspaper was pressing against the 'Door Open' button. I relinquished my position, thinking, "This would be really embarrassing, if I was not drunk."

The rest of the story is uneventful; no guests saw me, to my knowledge; he got me to my room and I found my keycard, and finally, in the bathroom, the voice, again, "And who do you think held your pee for you, all this time, Fool ???"

I have yet to find the video on YouTube, but, who knows...

So, yeah, everything is caused. I'm not the only one in my head. But I have to make the decisions, whether I am in possession of all my faculties or not!

Veru funny, intriguing, suspenseful, and a bit twisted. I hope you are a writer because if not, you may have missed your calling.

I was rooting for you. Sounded like an episode of I love Lucy.

The most i ever laughed watching a movie was, "The long, long trailer."

Then there is, "The man who knew too little" with Bill Murray. So hilarious. Kinda how I feel at times, but I have my sense of humor.

It's like I'm thrown into a scene where i think i know what is happening, but I don't know.

Where am i and what is happening?

 

[Bradskii]

Does that mean you decided that freewill could not be proven false, and therefore resorted to using a red herring to see what you got out of it?
Why did you not use the scientific process on it?
I challenge you to do so.

Saying that determinism is valid is inductive reasoning. You can't prove a statement made based on inductive reasoning. But you can prove it false. Go Google 'induction and black swans'.

Okay. Disprove freewill.

See above.

No. I think it's only fair that you prove freewill is false, since you came on here cocked sure it is false, and you believe in using the scientific processes.

See above.

How is that relevant to your argument.

That all effects have causes? Good grief man. I haven't read the rest of your post yet. I'm answering it point by point. But if you ask any more questions like that I'm pulling the plug. I can't keep explaining the basics to you post after post after post.

All effects having causes do not render your brain useless... nor mine.

No-one said it did.

Sure I have. You may not know this... or do you,, but from my experience, when an atheist tells a person, they did not give him what he asks for, he usually means, the person did not give him what he will accept.
That is nothing anyone can fix.

I have given examples where decisions are made with no antecedent causes.

No, you most definitely haven't.

So, what we are looking at here...

Nothing worth responding to for some time.

No. That misrepresents my position.

That has been your exact position. Which has prompted me to ask you countless times for any decision that was not caused by an antecedent condition.

I am saying that there do not have to be past causal factors...

That makes no sense whatsoever. How can something that caused an event not be in that haven't past? All causes are past causes. They happened before any decision is made. Again, I can't believe that I have to explain things like this...

...and that even when making decisions, that involve past determining factors, that still does not mean we do not make free willed decisions.
Cain had options, and there were more than one "causal factors" at play.

How do you respond to that fact... was Cain's decision determined by two "determining factors", or more?

I will be pulling the plug. How on earth can there be less than 2 options? Think about what you are saying for heaven's sake. And Cain might have made his choice based on two. Like you, who might have decided on a law degree because you wanted to be a lawyer and it pays well.

You've made enough distractions in this thread already.
No need to make another. Just address the question.
How does this example support your claim.

Because you said that there were causes for Cain's choice. Which is the point I was trying to get you to accept.

It seems you are not aware of the difference between a cause and a condition.
Now would be a good time to educate yourself in this matter, since technology is available to even the youngest of minds.
Don't let this opportunity pass you by.
Difference between a cause and a condition.

What you highlighted, are condition, not causes.
I am making a decision based on the conditions around me, and hence I have various options, from which I make a free willed decision.

After you are educated, respond again, since your post is void, on the basis that it is entirely false.

The condition is that it is pouring down with rain. Shall I go to the beach? No, because it is raining. What is the reason I'm not going to the beach? Because it is raining. What was the cause? What determined my choice? The fact that it is raining.

Prove my position? LOL

See the very top of this post.

Try this.
You made a presumption that choice can exist without free will.
Is that easier?

That should be elementary.

Too easy. I choose A.

LOL. Are you now claiming that knowledge is an antecedent cause?

You're in the office, down in the basement, trying to decide whether to go to the beach after work. Someone tells you that it's raining. That is knowledge that you now have that you previously didn't. Someone tells you there's been an earthquake and a tsunami is expected. That's knowledge that you didn't previously have.

Good grief...everything that you know about a situation, everything that you use to make a decision is knowledge about the situation.

How much crazier are you willing to make it?
I can keep up.

Not with me you won't. Unless you start asking questions that are relevant and haven't been asked, and answered multiple times before and stop making statements that either have nothing to do with the matter at hand or have been comprehensively rejected previously.

Otherwise I won't be responding. I've wasted too much time.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm free to decide but my decision was determined by something other than me. You're just flat out contradicting yourself.

There will be some internal conditions that are relevant to Chesterton when you made the decision (your character, your IQ, your age, your mood, maybe you were angry, tired, drunk, sick etc), so they would be some of the antecedent conditions, but you are the process. You are deciding between the options that you have available. The 'you' that is making the decision is not one of the options.

But the antecedent conditions are different for every individual. What difference does that make?

They'll likely make different decisions. Isn't that all too obvious?

 

[CoreyD]

Saying that determinism is valid is inductive reasoning. You can't prove a statement made based on inductive reasoning. But you can prove it false. Go Google 'induction and black swans'.

See above.

See above.

That all effects have causes? Good grief man. I haven't read the rest of your post yet. I'm answering it point by point. But if you ask any more questions like that I'm pulling the plug. I can't keep explaining the basics to you post after post after post.

No-one said it did.

No, you most definitely haven't.

Nothing worth responding to for some time.

That has been your exact position. Which has prompted me to ask you countless times for any decision that was not caused by an antecedent condition.

That makes no sense whatsoever. How can something that caused an event not be in that haven't past? All causes are past causes. They happened before any decision is made. Again, I can't believe that I have to explain things like this...

I will be pulling the plug. How on earth can there be less than 2 options? Think about what you are saying for heaven's sake. And Cain might have made his choice based on two. Like you, who might have decided on a law degree because you wanted to be a lawyer and it pays well.

Because you said that there were causes for Cain's choice. Which is the point I was trying to get you to accept.

The condition is that it is pouring down with rain. Shall I go to the beach? No, because it is raining. What is the reason I'm not going to the beach? Because it is raining. What was the cause? What determined my choice? The fact that it is raining.


See the very top of this post.

Too easy. I choose A.

You're in the office, down in the basement, trying to decide whether to go to the beach after work. Someone tells you that it's raining. That is knowledge that you now have that you previously didn't. Someone tells you there's been an earthquake and a tsunami is expected. That's knowledge that you didn't previously have.

Good grief...everything that you know about a situation, everything that you use to make a decision is knowledge about the situation.

Not with me you won't. Unless you start asking questions that are relevant and haven't been asked, and answered multiple times before and stop making statements that either have nothing to do with the matter at hand or have been comprehensively rejected previously.

Otherwise I won't be responding. I've wasted too much time.

I won't ask you any more questions, sir.

Bradskii said:
They say that they can make a choice that's not based on antecedent conditions. Aka data.

That is a conflation.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/free-will-and-determinism.8297921/post-77997034​

Antecedent conditions and data are two different things.​

​

For example, if I find a 20 dollar bill, and I decide to give it to the first person I met, you might say that antecedent conditions led me to that decision, but why assume that, when all I did was process the fact that I have a 20 dollar bill... which I could use, but I made a choice to give it to someone... not knowing if that person needs it, or not.​

​

Why I did it, may have nothing to do with the past.​

It would require you... since you are the one making the claim, to prove that I did it because of some past cause.​

Since you can't prove it, how does your argument stand? It can't.​

​

It's just an argument standing in midair, with no foundation... no support.​

Similar to a claim that's unsupported.​

Do you follow.​

What was your response?
Zip. Nothing.

You later said this to me.
...you are either not reading what I'm writing or ignoring it. Either way, you're wasting my time and I'm not repeating myself again.

However, as one poster acknowledge, and I agree, you are changing the OP, as you go along, and changing it to meet your needs, and fulfill your desire, to win your argument regardless of how completely irrational, and unreasonable it is.
That is free will right there. The ability to change or create your own decisions to meet an intended goal.

So, this is the verdict.
I think your argument is wasting people's time, and I am taking Aaron's advice.
So, you will be happy to know that I won't be wasting your time anymore.

So long.

 

[Bradskii]

I have to interrupt here...

Great story! Made me laugh out loud.

But yeah, I guess most of us have that feeling of 'Oh no. This is not good. What are we going to do now'. What? We? What are we going to do? Well, yeah. Both of you. The idiot that got you into the jam and the smart guy that's going to try to get you out of it.