Earth created, then universe, then stretched so light was here all along

[prodromos]

It is really simple to see unless you have been blinded by science.

Enlightened by observation

 

[truthpls]

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The firmament is the area that is separating waters from waters that is the sky and that is where the sun, moon and stars have been placed by God.

Since the waters above the firmament are above the stars that has little to do with the atmosphere of earth, that is also called heaven

It is really simple to see unless you have been blinded by science.

? That would be the last thing I would be blinded by.

This is clearly seen in the verses i posted in my post #11

There are no two firmaments (which is what you are trying to say) in Genesis chapter 1 God has created only one firmament

There are the heavens. The birds fly in one part of them. God lives in another part of them. The stars are in another part of them..

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It was written to men. Kids. Peasants. Uneducated. Etc. Creation is a theme throughout the bible. There is no need for a religious rocket scientist to interpret it for us, usually in ways that are opposite to what is said.

I'm not really sure I fully understand what you're saying here. Are you implying that I should simply ignore that the book of Genesis is an ancient work and was written in Hebrew?

We know the earth revolves around the sun now. I am not sure about the future. In our city of New Jerusalem coming to earth, no sun is required. Now I assume there will still be a sun, but whether earth then revolves around it is another matter. Likewise, in the beginning, who really knows? WE do know it does so now and has for a long long time.

In your estimation, how many centuries or millennia has the sun been revolving around the earth? And does your interpretation imply there was no Big Bang?

 

[David Lamb]

I'm not really sure I fully understand what you're saying here. Are you implying that I should simply ignore that the book of Genesis is an ancient work and was written in Hebrew?

Surely the point is, not whether Genesis is ancient or modern, originally written in Hebrew or not, but that it is part of God's revelation to mankind. (Just to avoid misunderstanding, I am not disagreeing that Genesis was originally in Hebrew, and is comparatively ancient.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Surely the point is, not whether Genesis is ancient or modern, originally written in Hebrew or not, but that it is part of God's revelation to mankind. (Just to avoid misunderstanding, I am not disagreeing that Genesis was originally in Hebrew, and is comparatively ancient.)

But even though Genesis is a prophetic statement to humanity, this doesn't mean that it can be easily understood by the 21st century English mind.

And we need to stop ignoring the conceptual complexities that exist in the ancient script of Genesis and stop pretending that it is easily understood, thereby using it as a cudgel against people who don't think it reads as easily as the everyday Fundamentalist claims it can be.

 

[David Lamb]

But even though Genesis is a prophetic statement to humanity, this doesn't mean that it can be easily understood by the 21st century English mind.

And we need to stop ignoring the conceptual complexities that exist in the ancient script of Genesis and stop pretending that it is easily understood, thereby using it as a cudgel against people who don't think it reads as easily as the everyday Fundamentalist claims it can be.

The matter of God having created all things is stated throughout the bible, both Testaments, not only in Genesis. It's all God's word, and our first recourse when we come across something difficult to understand is to pray to God, the ultimate Author of Scripture, for His help.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The matter of God having created all things is stated throughout the bible, both Testaments, not only in Genesis. It's all God's word, and our first recourse when we come across something difficult to understand is to pray to God, the ultimate Author of Scripture, for His help.

Obviously, David. But now you're admitting that we all need help to understand the Bible.

I guess merely reading the Bible in "simple English" isn't enough in order to understand 'Creation'?

 

[d taylor]

Since the waters above the firmament are above the stars that has little to do with the atmosphere of earth, that is also called heaven

? That would be the last thing I would be blinded by.

There are the heavens. The birds fly in one part of them. God lives in another part of them. The stars are in another part of them..

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The Bible addresses two heavens,. the 1st heaven that is separating waters "the raqia". Also known as the sky, where God has stated in Genesis chapter 1 He has placed the sun, moon and stars and where the birds fly across the face of.

The other heaven that is spoken of in The Bible is the third heaven, where Paul states he was taken.

Also in Genesis chapter 1 the creation account shows that the sun, moon and stars are all located in one place the raqia above the earth, that is separating waters and not scattered milloins, billions miles and light years away from earth.

 

[Job 33:6]

@David Lamb it's the same complication, again and again. The YEC position is essentially ignoring the historical context of Genesis. No Christian denies that God created all things. But that doesn't mean that Genesis is therefore scientific in nature, or even historical.

Some details can be historical. God created everything. That's historical. But the way that this idea is presented, need not concord with what we would consider "science", things like the age of the earth or human origins.

Additionally, though all of scripture is God breathed, some concepts of scripture are simply cultural reference, and are not the subject of God's teaching.

For example:

Genesis 23:16
Abraham agreed to Ephron's terms and weighed out for him the price he had named in the hearing of the Hittites: four hundred shekels of silver, according to the weight current among the merchants.

A "shekel" for example. God has revealed a truth in the broader narrative of Genesis 23. God is teaching us something in this story. But here still, a "shekel" is a concept that originated from an ancient environment. It's not like God created shekels ex nihilo mid-story, there isn't anything particularly special about them, nor are they important in and of themselves. Nobody uses a shekel anymore. The story isn't about them.

The shekel is a cultural reference. It's not the subject of the story, nor is God teaching us something special about them. it is simply what God is allowing the authors to reference with respect to their culture.

 

[David Lamb]

Obviously, David. But now you're admitting that we all need help to understand the Bible.

I guess merely reading the Bible in "simple English" isn't enough in order to understand 'Creation'?

Of course we all need help. As the Ethiopian said to Philip when Philip had asked him if he understood what he was reading in Isaiah:

"How can I, unless someone guides me?" (Ac 8:31 NKJV)

I have never intentionally denied that we need help to understand the bible.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Of course we all need help. As the Ethiopian said to Philip when Philip had asked him if he understood what he was reading in Isaiah:

"How can I, unless someone guides me?" (Ac 8:31 NKJV)

I have never intentionally denied that we need help to understand the bible.

Keep in mind, David, that the context of this conversation is the specific claims that Truthpls has made in the OP post, not whether or not the Bible is God's Word.

 

[David Lamb]

Keep in mind, David, that the context of this conversation is the specific claims that Truthpls has made in the OP post, not whether or not the Bible is God's Word.

You are correct. My only excuse is that I was answering your comments about Genesis being written in Hebrew and being ancient. I thought it was pertinent to reply as I did, and if I was wrong to do so I am sorry.

 

[awstar]

But if I'm not mistaken, your interpretation asserts that the Earth was created first, and then the Sun was created, and then the Earth was moved by God to revolve around the Sun. Am I correct in understanding the implications of your interpretation?

Why complicate the story. The earth is fixed because it was placed on the barycenter of the revolving universe. It can’t move because of its unique location. Very clever of God.

The dynamical description of the geocentric Universe


Luka Popov


University of Zagreb, Department of Physics, Bijeniˇcka cesta 32, Zagreb,


Abstract. Using Mach’s principle, we will show that the observed diurnal and annual motion of the Earth can just as well be accounted as the diurnal rotation and annual revolution of the Universe around the fixed and centered Earth. This can be performed by postulating the existence of vector and scalar potentials caused by the simultaneous motion of the masses in the Universe, including the distant stars.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why complicate the story.

The story is subject to a litany of historical and literary interrogatives that, themselves, complicate an easy, direct reading of the Creation accounts in Genesis.

The earth is fixed because it was placed on the barycenter of the revolving universe. It can’t move because of its unique location. Very clever of God.

No, I think Copernicus, Kepler and Galileo set us on the road to understanding that the earth isn't 'fixed' and that it isn't at the very center of any place in the universe, other than perhaps being the locus of God's Love.

 

[awstar]

the earth isn't 'fixed' and that it isn't at the very center of any place in the universe, other than perhaps being the locus of God's Love.

I agree! God’s Love “never faileth”. The word “faileth” means to fall

Strongs definition
ἐκπίπτω ekpíptō, ek-pip'-to; from G1537 and G4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one's course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:—be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

another verse that uses the same Greek word for “fall” is in this passage.

Mark 13: 25. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

God’s love will not fall, and evidently the earth will not fall either before He returns, even though stars (the sun too?) will. I wonder how He will see to it that the earth shall not fall. Hmmmm…

 

[truthpls]

I'm not really sure I fully understand what you're saying here. Are you implying that I should simply ignore that the book of Genesis is an ancient work and was written in Hebrew?

God made sure it came down in many languages. Even if we could not read at all, there are audio versions and brail versions etc. The fact that early versions were Hebrew is not all that important to an understanding of the basics. It seems many people lean to Hebrew possible translated word uses as an excuse for disbelieving creation.

In your estimation, how many centuries or millennia has the sun been revolving around the earth? And does your interpretation imply there was no Big Bang?

Of course there was no big bang. As for the sun and earth they both came into existence some 6000 plus years ago.

 

[truthpls]

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The Bible addresses two heavens,. the 1st heaven that is separating waters "the raqia".

The third also. Paul mentioned a visit there. John was carried up there for a tour.

Also known as the sky, where God has stated in Genesis chapter 1 He has placed the sun, moon and stars and where the birds fly across the face of.

The sky where birds fly is the lower part of the heavens.

The other heaven that is spoken of in The Bible is the third heaven, where Paul states he was taken.

Exactly

Also in Genesis chapter 1 the creation account shows that the sun, moon and stars are all located in one place the raqia above the earth, that is separating waters and not scattered milloins, billions miles and light years away from earth.

The stars were placed IN the firmament. God is above that. We are below. The birds are right here just a relatively few feet up.

 

[eleos1954]

Let's look at that.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

So there was light and this is when the earth was here, because the deep refers to the world at the time. That is before the lights in the heaven were created. All you have to do is read a few verses more and we see they are made then, and the day is given clearly. So the earth was here first.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:3 describes the condition of the earth before He created light. (dark and void)

then in Genesis 1:3 He creates light

I think we are in agreement.

 

[truthpls]

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:3 describes the condition of the earth before He created light. (dark and void)

then in Genesis 1:3 He creates light

I think we are in agreement.

By the time we hear about darkness being on the face of the deep, earth is here. Heaven was empty. No sun or stars etc.

 

[BobRyan]

The formation process was given day by day. Man came after the stars. The separation of water and land came before man...etc.

No, it then goes into when things were created. He created the heavens and earth...the earth was not complete as a planet so there was a separation of water and land, a creating of light, etc.

There is no "Let there be rocks" in all of Gen 1.
There is no "let water come into being" there is no "let water cover the rocks on Earth" etc in Gen 1 or 2.

Rather that is already there at the start of day 1 and no information given as to when it was said "let there be rocks" or "let there be the Earth" etc.

But if someone wants to infer that just before the statement "let there be light" there was another statement "let there be water" or "let there be rocks as the surface of the deep" etc - I am not objecting. I just note that such an assumption is not actually in the text.