Earth created, then universe, then stretched so light was here all along

[truthpls]

So long as it agrees with whose interpretation of Genesis?

The one that Jesus agrees with. You know how He created us male and female, the serpent in the garden, the flood etc.

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

The earth was created before the sun and stars. So the stars were made as lights for us. We were here first. That seems related to how light from stars got here right away. If God then stretched the heavens as we are told in Psalms then the stars presumably would then be further away. No fast light speed involved. Anyone have anything to add or think they can correct about that?

I think the question may be based an a misreading of the Psalm in question, Psalm 104:2. It doesn't say God "stretched" the heavens in any Bible that I'm aware of. The verse in the KJV reads; "Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:"The KJV says "stretchest". NIV says "stretches". NLV says "stretch". ESV says "stretching". Need I go on. Every translation uses the present and not past tense. The Hebrew term transliterated "nowteh" is a term associated with the stretching of a tent.

In Isaiah 40:22 (KJV) we read the same analogy; "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" These are descriptions of God and His power and vastness. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges says of the Psalm "The canopy of the sky is compared to a tent-curtain, stretched out over the earth. By His simple fiat God spread out these heavens as easily as a man might pitch his tent. Their vastness is a symbol of the majesty of the King Who dwells in His royal pavilion, Whom yet heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain.”

The phrase is a metaphor for the stretching out of a curtain or tent, something the Israelites were very familiar with and here it's applied to the heavens. So, as with in Isaiah, the metaphorical use of the term isn't meant to be taken literally.

 

[truthpls]

I think the question may be based an a misreading of the Psalm in question, Psalm 104:2. It doesn't say God "stretched" the heavens in any Bible that I'm aware of. The verse in the KJV reads; "Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:"The KJV says "stretchest". NIV says "stretches". NLV says "stretch". ESV says "stretching". Need I go on. Every translation uses the present and not past tense. The Hebrew term transliterated "nowteh" is a term associated with the stretching of a tent.

They are still expanding according to science. That would not mean that they were not also stretched at creation! Possibly even more. Like the verse right before. He was also clothed with majesty and honour in creation week. We also see that the context is creation in verse 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever
In verse 20 it says He makes darkness. Again the light was made and separated to make the day and night in creation week 20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth
So yes, He makes darkness but that does not take away from the day he actually made it.

In Job 9 it talks of God 'making' Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiade. Yet we know they were created a long time ago. So in context, then I think we would say something like 'God makes Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiade yet they were created long ago when they were made' Perhaps there is some star 'birth' going on today and some things that change the constellations somewhat so if we wanted to focus on just the present, we could get some sort of fit as well.

In Isaiah 40:22 (KJV) we read the same analogy; "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:" These are descriptions of God and His power and vastness.

Again, part of that chapter looks at creation


Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

The chapter is broader in scope than just the past though as the other chapters we looked at here also are. An example of more than the past being spoken about in that chapter is


Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him

The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges says of the Psalm "The canopy of the sky is compared to a tent-curtain, stretched out over the earth. By His simple fiat God spread out these heavens as easily as a man might pitch his tent. Their vastness is a symbol of the majesty of the King Who dwells in His royal pavilion, Whom yet heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain.”

Yes and He did that in creation week.

The phrase is a metaphor for the stretching out of a curtain or tent, something the Israelites were very familiar with and here it's applied to the heavens. So, as with in Isaiah, the metaphorical use of the term isn't meant to be taken literally.

It also is describing what God did. Of course we take it literally, but not super literally in that we claim that the universe expansion or the creation of space was actually done with tent fabric!

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

They are still expanding according to science. That would not mean that they were not also stretched at creation! Possibly even more. Like the verse right before.

Yes, scientists tell us the universe is still expanding. They also tell us it's been expanding for billions of years. Make of that what you will. And you are technically correct that "that would not mean that they were not also stretched at creation", it's just that neither the Psalm or the reference in Isaiah says that. I don't like to extrapolate that because a verse doesn't eliminate a possibility that by default there is any correlation between the statement and the possibility that other things MAY be true. As some folks call it, reading between the lines.

He was also clothed with majesty and honour in creation week

Of course God was "clothed in honor and majesty throughout eternity. I was commenting only on the original posters assumption about the stretching of the heavens.

We also see that the context is creation in verse 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever
In verse 20 it says He makes darkness. Again the light was made and separated to make the day and night in creation week 20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth
So yes, He makes darkness but that does not take away from the day he actually made it.

You refer to the context. I believe you left out verses 3 and 4 which are both more metaphorical as well.
"3Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:". Then the Psalmist goes goes on to say that God makes darkness and it is night. That's a literal statement that just as the metaphors is meant to glorify God and is extolling His mighty power. Again, the use of the present tense in the verse doesn't imply anything about past actions. They are simply speaking in the present tense of god's majesty and power.

In Job 9 it talks of God 'making' Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiade. Yet we know they were created a long time ago. So in context, then I think we would say something like 'God makes Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiade yet they were created long ago when they were made' Perhaps there is some star 'birth' going on today and some things that change the constellations somewhat so if we wanted to focus on just the present, we could get some sort of fit as well.

Job 9:9 in some translations says "maketh" in others it uses the past tense "made". The actual Hebrew word in question here is Strong's 6213, transliterated "oseh". Strong's translates it as "He is the maker". The point is that it is not meant to be taken as a literal timeline of when these constellations were created. If your point is that this verse wrongly puts the creation of them in a present tense at the time of Job, that doesn't make sense to me.

Again, part of that chapter looks at creation


Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

The chapter is broader in scope than just the past though as the other chapters we looked at here also are. An example of more than the past being spoken about in that chapter is

My point exactly, it's all past tense. The creation is past tense but Isaiah is mentioning these things in a metaphorical way to remind the children of Israel that God is and has always been the Almighty. I'm not sure what significance you are making of the fact that he mixes literal statements (such as when he speaks of creation) with metaphors in glorifying God. I simply said that the statements in both instances were metaphorical and past tense, a statement I still stand by and one that by happy coincidence is also shared by every Bible commentary and concordance that I've come across.

 

[truthpls]

Yes, scientists tell us the universe is still expanding. They also tell us it's been expanding for billions of years. Make of that what you will.

False prophesy

And you are technically correct that "that would not mean that they were not also stretched at creation", it's just that neither the Psalm or the reference in Isaiah says that. I don't like to extrapolate that because a verse doesn't eliminate a possibility that by default there is any correlation between the statement and the possibility that other things MAY be true. As some folks call it, reading between the lines.

They talk of creation also, not much of a stretch to relate them

Of course God was "clothed in honor and majesty throughout eternity. I was commenting only on the original posters assumption about the stretching of the heavens.

The point I made was that the chapter dealt with past and future

You refer to the context. I believe you left out verses 3 and 4 which are both more metaphorical as well.
"3Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

He walked on water in what way would He not be able to walk on wind as desired? He went up to heaven in a similar manner and comes back also something like that

4Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:".

That is real. The two witnesses in the end destroy enemies with fire. The Hebrew children walked around in fire. Elijah went to heaven in a flamming chariot. The angel guarding Eden had a flaming sword. Etc

Then the Psalmist goes goes on to say that God makes darkness and it is night. That's a literal statement that just as the metaphors is meant to glorify God and is extolling His mighty power. Again, the use of the present tense in the verse doesn't imply anything about past actions. They are simply speaking in the present tense of god's majesty and power.

It does bring to mind Gen 1 actually when He made the light etc No metaphor. In Scripture, sometimes it jumps thousands of years in the same verse from beginning to the end of the verse. One needs the spirit to be able to understand it. Otherwise people tend to wave it away as metaphors, stories, etc.

Job 9:9 in some translations says "maketh" in others it uses the past tense "made". The actual Hebrew word in question here is Strong's 6213, transliterated "oseh". Strong's translates it as "He is the maker". The point is that it is not meant to be taken as a literal timeline of when these constellations were created. If your point is that this verse wrongly puts the creation of them in a present tense at the time of Job, that doesn't make sense to me.

No, the point is that God can bring creation as well as the present and future to mind using certain phrases that can apply to both. When it brings Gen to mind, probably that is a big part of what is being conveyed.

My point exactly, it's all past tense. The creation is past tense but Isaiah is mentioning these things in a metaphorical way to remind the children of Israel that God is and has always been the Almighty.

The chapters we looked at were not all past tense. They covered a spectrum of time

I'm not sure what significance you are making of the fact that he mixes literal statements (such as when he speaks of creation) with metaphors in glorifying God.

Deeper truths may appear as metaphors to some people. That is taking the life and beauty and spirit out of the text. Jesus spoke to a crowd and some did not understand what they were hearing. Those who did not understand probably thought what He was saying was metaphors and stories etc

I simply said that the statements in both instances were metaphorical and past tense, a statement I still stand by and one that by happy coincidence is also shared by every Bible commentary and concordance that I've come across.

OK. Stand as you wish

 

[Godsunworthyservant]

Deeper truths may appear as metaphors to some people.

And metaphors may appear as deeper truths to others.

 

[truthpls]

And metaphors may appear as deeper truths to others.

Parables were real truths. Deep truths. Prophesy is real and as mentioned, thousands of years are sometimes spanned in a verse, and of course a chapter. Certain key phrases can tune us in about what a part of a chapter or verse is talking about. The day of the Lord, In the beginning, in that day, in those days etc etc. When we see a verse that jumps out and reminds us of creation, it is safe to say it likely has some application. Regardless of anyone calling it a metaphor or other names that basically show they do not understand it. I would not even use the term metaphor. Because a word of phrase can be and usually is very much something real.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God disagrees. His wisdom is above man's. He gave us the inspired divine word through men. Inspired by God. Confirmed by God. In some cases written by His own finger! (ten commandments)

Nature is a piddly small part of what He is all about. Certainly no light to the truths of creation

The noises Jesus spoke were from heaven.

God couldn't possibly disagree. He knows what I think and why I think it.

 

[truthpls]

God couldn't possibly disagree. He knows what I think and why I think it.

He knew what everyone, like Judas thought also. That does not mean He agreed with everyone.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

He knew what everyone, like Judas thought also. That does not mean He agreed with everyone.

Whether or not God agrees with everyone has little to do with whether or not He agrees with either you or me, specifically.

Notice, too, here how I don't disparage your own faith or discredit your value as a brother in Christ. I'm not sure I feel you're reciprocating on this point, and it should be clear to anyone here that your 'Judas' comment has nothing to do with me directly.

 

[truthpls]

Whether or not God agrees with everyone has little to do with whether or not He agrees with either you or me, specifically.

OK, fortunately there is a way to find out. He gave us the book.

Notice, too, here how I don't disparage your own faith or discredit your value as a brother in Christ. I'm not sure I feel you're reciprocating on this point, and it should be clear to anyone here that your 'Judas' comment has nothing to do with me directly.

That was an example of Him reading minds and how He does not have to agree with them all.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK, fortunately there is a way to find out. He gave us the book.

How do you know He gave us "the book," directly? Is it because you 'feel' it in your heart that He did so?

That was an example of Him reading minds and how He does not have to agree with them all.

That's your theological interpretation.

 

[truthpls]

How do you know He gave us "the book," directly? Is it because you 'feel' it in your heart that He did so?

He said so and confirmed it when He was here

That's your theological interpretation.

That's your opinion

 

[2PhiloVoid]

He said so and confirmed it when He was here

That's your opinion

Here's the thing: no one here has to agree with your particular denomination's "reading and understanding" of the Bible and expect to end up in an eternal Hell for doing so.

 

[truthpls]

Here's the thing: no one here has to agree with your particular denomination's "reading and understanding" of the Bible and expect to end up in an eternal Hell for doing so.

Right. So how does that apply to our opinions of the endeavour to flee earth?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Right. So how does that apply to our opinions of the endeavour to flee earth?

To "flee" earth? I'm not understanding your question.

Look, you're the one who popped up a few days ago and decided to respond to some OLD post of mine in this thread. Now, here we are. What is it you want to talk about specifically with me?

 

[truthpls]

To "flee" earth? I'm not understanding your question.

Look, you're the one who popped up a few days ago and decided to respond to some OLD post of mine in this thread. Now, here we are. What is it you want to talk about specifically with me?

I conflated two threads, sorry

edit: So, a more proper response to your comment would be

"Here's the thing: no one here has to agree with your particular denomination's "reading and understanding" of the Bible and expect to end up in an eternal Hell for doing so"

The usual issue of differences of opinion between believers has nothing to do with hellfire. We can look at biblical support for any position and see what we believe is the strongest case, the most likely.