CAN YOU HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

[SabbathBlessings]

M

It is absolutely the ten.
Moses laws didn't rise to the level of God's laws.
It does not defeat the purpose of the law if we as humans break one. No one is saved by keeping the law, the law accuses us.
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith."

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
And God through Paul laid that confusion to rest with this:

:One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

That scripture is about the day or days that people choose to set aside, it offers the freedom we have in Christ, not some rule that men should be a slave to.

Every day should be in the presence of God.

So if applied to the Ten, if we are not keeping God's law, how would it be the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Christ's law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 so not keeping would not lead us to Christ or with a converted heart. Once in Christ did He ever teach not to keep God's law. Not once- He taught the opposite. Mat 19:17-19 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 5:19-30 John 14:15

Romans 14 is not about the Sabbath commandment.

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Should people determine what is right or wrong, or should that be God's job? Paul is talking about opinions of man, not the commandments of God- the day GOD esteemed above all others- keep the Sabbath day holy, the seventh day is the Sabbath day Exo 20:10 My holy day, the holy day of the Lord, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13

Paul is not above God and the teaching he is, is a very sad teaching indeed. Hence why the Sabbath is not mentioned once in Romans 14 and why Paul's teachings came with a warning if not read in context or harmonized with God.

It would be like us discussing if Christmas or Easter is a religious holiday , not if we should obey God and His commandments and sin or not. We should worship God 365 24/7. Jesus related worship to obedience to His commandments Mat 15:3-14 its the fruit of a saved person Rev 14:12

 

[sparow]

Of course we should not shrink our responsibilities- our responsibility is to cooperate with God by our love and faith in Him. In doing so one would make the decision every Sabbath to keep it holy per the commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 doing the ways of God isa 58:13 in the same manner as Jesus - going to church, praying, reading the scriptures, helping others in need. We all have decisions to make to obey or not to obey to follow or not to follow, but that won't make us righteous, it leads to righteousness but its through Christ that makes us righteous. Keeping our eyes on Christ following in His footsteps having faith in what He taught and how He lived. He is the one enabling us to obey Him, we can do nothing on our own John 14:15-18 but all things through Him Phil 4:13

God bless!

We have to make decisions, but righteousness has to be in our personality before we make the decision. Jesus said our righteousness has to exceed that of the Pharisees, which means righteousness can be quantified, by volume, quality, and so on, but it can not be put in a bag or a bottle. Righteousness belongs to the immaterial part of man, man's soul, it is linked to the knowledge of Good and evil. I believe righteousness is greater than the Law and that the Law is in subjection to it, so we have a circle and the quandary of what came first.

 

[sparow]

Most Christians agree that's what the Bible says

How about if I put it that way?

Most Christians do not agree, and so we have hundred and thousands of sects.
Most Christians do not know what the bible says, the know what men say.

 

[Leaf473]

Most Christians do not agree, and so we have hundred and thousands of sects.

Most Christians agree that we cannot keep the law. I believe that's what we were talking about

But Yes, Christians disagree about lots of details

Most Christians do not know what the bible says, the know what men say.

I think most Christians know the basics of what the Bible says,
one God, that one God sent Jesus, he died for our sins and rose again, etc

But again about the details, it's true that there's lots of room for improvement

That's one reason I'm glad for forums like this

Like Proverbs says,
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another

 

[sparow]

Most Christians agree that we cannot keep the law. I believe that's what we were talking about

But Yes, Christians disagree about lots of details


I think most Christians know the basics of what the Bible says,
one God, that one God sent Jesus, he died for our sins and rose again, etc

But again about the details, it's true that there's lots of room for improvement

That's one reason I'm glad for forums like this

Like Proverbs says,
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another

The reason that most people agree that we cannot keep the Law (perfectly) is they follow the teaching of men and not the teaching of God. Men never cease making excuses for opposing God, they even call that opposition good, thinking they can still have salvation. Isaiah 4:1 puts it this way, And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel; only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. And Jesus said, Matt 7:23 Änd I will profess to them that I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness".

I believe the forum is useful.

 

[Leaf473]

Say, @sparow , do you keep this law?

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:23 - New Century Version

“Three times each year all your males must come before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[sparow]

Say, @sparow , do you keep this law?

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:23 - New Century Version

“Three times each year all your males must come before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.

www.biblegateway.com

I suspect you have in mind the Law of the Pharisees, If we consider the Law of the God of Israel, Yes, in a binary sense, I do not keep alternate laws of alternate gods. In a non-binary sense I probably fail the fourth commandment, but it is a work in progress. I live my whole life before God, in the presence of Christ.

 

[Leaf473]

I suspect you have in mind the Law of the Pharisees, If we consider the Law of the God of Israel, Yes, in a binary sense, I do not keep alternate laws of alternate gods. In a non-binary sense I probably fail the fourth commandment, but it is a work in progress.

I quoted from Exodus 34:23. I'm not really following what you're saying

I live my whole life before God, in the presence of Christ.

But I say a big Amen to that!

 

[DamianWarS]

Moses laws didn't rise to the level of God's laws.

do you view circumcision from Abraham or from God? As a bonus if you read Gen 17 you will see it is an everlasting covenant for generations to come, which is the exact same language noted for the Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's not the exact language;


Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”



12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[b] you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [c]profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

God said circumcision is a sign of the covenant with Abraham.

He did not say that with the Sabbath, but it is the commandment where God placed His seal. His name, territory and title Exo 20:11 which is everlasting Rev 14:7 because God never wants us to forget where we came from and Who created us and that we are worshipping the God of creation. The only God who has the power to Create heaven and earth, the only God who has the power to sanctify us Eze 20:12

He said in keeping the Sabbath it is a sign between Me and the children of Israel (His people) forever. Not that the Sabbath was a sign of the covenant but a sign between God and His people. Also in Eze 20:20 Eze 20:12

Circumcision was not one of the Ten Commandments that defines what sin is when breaking 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 nor will it be what we will be judged by James 2;10-12

Physical circumcision was never as a means for salvation or a means to hear the gospel, this is what Paul was correcting Acts 15:1 Gal 2:3 there is no scripture that says circumcision ended, Paul has timothy circumcised Acts 16:3, its just not a means to salvation as if only males could be saved and cutting of the flesh of ones penis could save someone but they can live however they want, this is what Paul was correcting because that would mean the blood of Jesus was meaningless and one could save themselves. Why He contrasted circumcision or no circumcision, that's not what matters, but keeping the commandments of God is 1 Cor 7:19 (His version) faith which establishes the law Rom 3:31 and becoming a new creation- which Paul tells us how to do this- one must die of self and sin Rom 6- meaning one would be not breaking God's law 1 John 3:4

Circumcision never went away, it was just never a means to salvation, our salvation is only by Jesus through faith and His blood. Circumcision has many health benefits used today so I would encourage any male child to get circumcised on the 8th day according to the bible, the way most doctors practice it even today, it just doesn't mean that child will necessarily be saved in doing so, because with God its always been about the heart. Rom 2:27-29


No one is saved by law keeping, we are saved by Jesus by grace through faith. We obey God's law including keeping the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8-11, God's holy day Isa 58:13 because we love and have faith in Jesus and want to follow His example 1 John 2:6, He left us because we should abide in Him John 15:10 John 15:4-5 and obey His teachings John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:19-30. Jesus never taught the Sabbath ended not once, He said it would be kept decades after His cross Mat 24:20 kept for eternity Isa 66:23. God blessed the Sabbath day, only God can reverse what He blessed Num 23:20 and not one verse that says He did.

 

[Palmfever]

do you view circumcision from Abraham or from God? As a bonus if you read Gen 17 you will see it is an everlasting covenant for generations to come, which is the exact same language noted for the Sabbath.

That was for Abrahams, decendants.
"On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter That man’s praise is not from men but from God."

God focus is on the heart, not the flesh.
Same goes for the sabbath.
The law did not save Abraham, his faith did.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus said our heart is far from Him when we keep not His commandments in lieu of man-made ones Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 The Sabbath is a commandment of God, just like not to worship false gods, just like not murdering our neighbor thus saith the Lord Exo 20:6

The law doesn't save, it shows us our sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 and is kept as a consequence of faith

Gen 26:5 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Rev 14:12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

[DamianWarS]

That was for Abrahams, decendants.
"On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter That man’s praise is not from men but from God."

God focus is on the heart, not the flesh.
Same goes for the sabbath.
The law did not save Abraham, his faith did.

I am using the Abrahamic covenant contrasted with the Sinai Covenant to show our changing value of the law. In Gen 17 the language that is used is: "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you." (v7) it was established as a sign for the Abrahamic Covenant "You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you." (v11). and in case you thought the flesh was optional it speaks of that too "Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant" (13-14) and we know what happened when Moses objected, Angels were sent to kill him.

Mirror language is used for the Sabbath, also a sign of its covenant. "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed." (Ex 31:16-17)

the words "lasting", "forever", "everlasting", "perpetual" with Sabbath/circumcision are all the same Hebrew word. the word is #5769. olam and nuances between these words are only grammatically based. Viewing them together they appear to be touching the same level of authority on God's part. Yet circumcision is for the Jews and Sabbath is universal? Sabbath is God's law and circumcision is something else? Instead, we should view them the same and apply the same logic to them. By doing this Sabbath is transformed into a sabbath of the heart/spiritual rest, over mere ritual physical rest, which is certainly the deeper meaning of Sabbath based on the law as well as creation. I'm not doubting the benefit of the physical rest (nor the cases of medical benefit for circumcision) only that the physical rest does not contribute to the spiritual rest and that our focus should be spiritual rest over physical rest. Paul boldly calls circumcision nothing (1 Cor 7:19, Gal 5:6), in the same sentiment I call Sabbath nothing too.

 

[sparow]

I quoted from Exodus 34:23. I'm not really following what you're saying


But I say a big Amen to that!

I do not understand Exodus 34:23, it seem to be to do with Israel occupying the promised land, and I expect there will be a transliteration of it, where the Children of God will occupy the kingdom of God.

The Pharisees tried to keep the Law literally instead of having the Law written on the hearts and mind and living the Law.

 

[sparow]

It's not the exact language;


Gen 17:9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”



12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies[b] you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who [c]profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

God said circumcision is a sign of the covenant with Abraham.

He did not say that with the Sabbath, but it is the commandment where God placed His seal. His name, territory and title Exo 20:11 which is everlasting Rev 14:7 because God never wants us to forget where we came from and Who created us and that we are worshipping the God of creation. The only God who has the power to Create heaven and earth, the only God who has the power to sanctify us Eze 20:12

He said in keeping the Sabbath it is a sign between Me and the children of Israel (His people) forever. Not that the Sabbath was a sign of the covenant but a sign between God and His people. Also in Eze 20:20 Eze 20:12

Circumcision was not one of the Ten Commandments that defines what sin is when breaking 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 nor will it be what we will be judged by James 2;10-12

Physical circumcision was never as a means for salvation or a means to hear the gospel, this is what Paul was correcting Acts 15:1 Gal 2:3 there is no scripture that says circumcision ended, Paul has timothy circumcised Acts 16:3, its just not a means to salvation as if only males could be saved and cutting of the flesh of ones penis could save someone but they can live however they want, this is what Paul was correcting because that would mean the blood of Jesus was meaningless and one could save themselves. Why He contrasted circumcision or no circumcision, that's not what matters, but keeping the commandments of God is 1 Cor 7:19 (His version) faith which establishes the law Rom 3:31 and becoming a new creation- which Paul tells us how to do this- one must die of self and sin Rom 6- meaning one would be not breaking God's law 1 John 3:4

Circumcision never went away, it was just never a means to salvation, our salvation is only by Jesus through faith and His blood. Circumcision has many health benefits used today so I would encourage any male child to get circumcised on the 8th day according to the bible, the way most doctors practice it even today, it just doesn't mean that child will necessarily be saved in doing so, because with God its always been about the heart. Rom 2:27-29


No one is saved by law keeping, we are saved by Jesus by grace through faith. We obey God's law including keeping the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8-11, God's holy day Isa 58:13 because we love and have faith in Jesus and want to follow His example 1 John 2:6, He left us because we should abide in Him John 15:10 John 15:4-5 and obey His teachings John 14:15 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 5:19-30. Jesus never taught the Sabbath ended not once, He said it would be kept decades after His cross Mat 24:20 kept for eternity Isa 66:23. God blessed the Sabbath day, only God can reverse what He blessed Num 23:20 and not one verse that says He did.

How one views circumcision depends on an individuals big picture, what is the kingdom of God all about, it is taking God seven thousand years (at least) to create it, or the create the people to occupy it.

My view is the Abraham covenants, circumcision and the promises are a shell into which the Mosaic covenant fits, and is a shell into which Jesus and the new covenant fits, all are homologous.

Circumcision plus the Law of God, is the ultimate sanctification; circumcision is also blood of the covenant, and needs a lot more thought.

Circumcision does not save anyone but it still maybe a requirement.

It is true that the Law cannot save, but the Law is still a requirement.

 

[Leaf473]

I do not understand Exodus 34:23, it seem to be to do with Israel occupying the promised land, and I expect there will be a transliteration of it, where the Children of God will occupy the kingdom of God.

The Pharisees tried to keep the Law literally instead of having the Law written on the hearts and mind and living the Law.

Right, we don't want to try to keep the law literally. I agree with that

"The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life"

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:6 - New International Reader's Version

He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[sparow]

Right, we don't want to try to keep the law literally. I agree with that

"The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life"

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:6 - New International Reader's Version

He has given us the power to serve under a new covenant. The covenant is not based on the written Law of Moses. It comes from the Holy Spirit. The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

www.biblegateway.com

The big problem is with communication, even the word "literally" means different things to different people.

The Spirit gives life; spirit is a pagan word with a pagan concept, and care is required when using the English pagan language. In Hebrew, breath is life and God gives it, but even in Hebrew a word can represent multiple concepts; when we consider the narrow path that leads to life, that few find, "life" has two uses, first it refers to the quality of the life, also it refers to salvation or the second life.

"The written Law kills", is dangerous, it accuses God, it is equally true that the written Law saves, depending on context. If the written Law does not include the option of repentance the the Law is incomplete.

Salvation is dependent on the blood covenant meaning that when the covenant is broken blood is shed. The Sanctuary, the safe place was where the serious went to offer substitute blood for remission of their sin and there was the daily sacrifice for sins committed in ignorance. If the Law does not include the Sanctuary and its service it is incomplete. Of course sacrificing animals for the remission of sin, today could amount to blaspheme

 

[Leaf473]

The big problem is with communication, even the word "literally" means different things to different people.

The Spirit gives life; spirit is a pagan word with a pagan concept, and care is required when using the English pagan language. In Hebrew, breath is life and God gives it, but even in Hebrew a word can represent multiple concepts; when we consider the narrow path that leads to life, that few find, "life" has two uses, first it refers to the quality of the life, also it refers to salvation or the second life.

"The written Law kills", is dangerous, it accuses God,

I think "The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life"

is a fine translation of
"τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ"

If you want to use a different translation, that's fine

...it is equally true that the written Law saves, depending on context. If the written Law does not include the option of repentance the the Law is incomplete.

Salvation is dependent on the blood covenant meaning that when the covenant is broken blood is shed. The Sanctuary, the safe place was where the serious went to offer substitute blood for remission of their sin and there was the daily sacrifice for sins committed in ignorance. If the Law does not include the Sanctuary and its service it is incomplete. Of course sacrificing animals for the remission of sin, today could amount to blaspheme

 

[sparow]

I think "The written Law kills, but the Spirit gives life"

is a fine translation of
"τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ"

If you want to use a different translation, that's fine

Are these you own words or are you quoting Paul; In 2 Cor 3:6 KJV Paul says, the letter of the new testament kills, but the spirit of the new testament saves. I believe what Paul is saying is, the letter is useless unless one understands.

 

[Leaf473]

Are these you own words or are you quoting Paul; In 2 Cor 3:6 KJV Paul says, the letter of the new testament kills, but the spirit of the new testament saves. I believe what Paul is saying is, the letter is useless unless one understands.

I was quoting from here

Bible Gateway passage: ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Β΄ 3:6 - SBL Greek New Testament

ὃς καὶ ἱκάνωσεν ἡμᾶς διακόνους καινῆς διαθήκης, οὐ γράμματος ἀλλὰ πνεύματος, τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ.

www.biblegateway.com

The instructions in the New covenant are put directly into our minds. It doesn't look to me like it's done in letters