The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not about natural or unnatural branches, it's about being part of or not part of the tree.

don't boast.. (pauls reasoning for the whole chapter) Its all about Israel

Heb 11: 11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Its about Gods promise to the nation of Israel.

 

[Clare73]

Heb 11: 11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Its about Gods promise to the nation of Israel.

Which are being fulfilled in a remnant. . .

 

[BNR32FAN]

When did this cutting out of the olive tree happen for the "natural branches" (Israelites) happen and when will these "natural branches" be grafted back in and all Israel will be saved? Can you place the timing of these events?

When they exhibited unbelief. Like I said the passage is about individuals not entire nations so there’s not going to be one specific event where all of the unbelieving Jews are cut off. And they’ll be grafted back in when they turn from their unbelief and believe. That’s why Paul wrote “if they do not continue in their unbelief they will be grafted back in”. Their grafting back into the covenant is contingent on their willingness to believe in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which are being fulfilled in a remnant. . .

Like I said before, in Calvin’s theology there is no covenant, there is only election because there’s no agreement that man has to fulfill in order to be saved in his theology.

 

[Clare73]

Heb 11: 11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Its about Gods promise to the nation of Israel.

Precisely, God has not cast away Israel, he is saving a remnant of Israel.

 

[Clare73]

Like I said before, in Calvin’s theology there is no covenant, there is only election because there’s no agreement that man has to fulfill in order to be saved in his theology.

And?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Which are being fulfilled in a remnant. . .

The promise is eternal.

As paul said, All israel will be saved. God will restore them.. That's what romans 11 is about. Gentiles do not boast for there will come a time when Israel will repent. and they will be restored.

 

[Clare73]

The promise is eternal.

As paul said, All israel will be saved. God will restore them.. That's what romans 11 is about. Gentiles do not boast for there will come a time when Israel will repent. and they will be restored.

Not all Israel is Israel (Ro 9:6).
All true Israel will be saved, for unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17-23) for over 2,000 years now.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Eternal life. Never die. Live forever. Can never be lost, Will never leave nor forsake us

No one that you know has eternal life right now.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not all Israel is Israel (Ro 9:6).
All true Israel will be saved, for unbelieving Israel has been cut off (Ro 11:17-23) for over 2,000 years now.

we need to separate romans 9 from romans 6

Romans 9 is paul answering the question did God make a mistake chosing Israel. and responding to Israels arguments against christianity.

One of the arguments was they are chosen, and Gentiles are not. because God chose them through abraham Isaac and jacob.

Paul is correct in stating there is no jew or gentile slave or free.. etc etc. in the case of salvation. Not all israel are isreal.

He then goes on to even say, the OT prophesied gentiles will be grafted in (something jews denied) and then gave the gospel..

In romans 11. He turns back to Israel. and asks the question, Is God done with them?

we can not use romans 9 to interpret romans 11 because the context and discussion is not related.

 

[Clare73]

we can not use romans 9 to interpret romans 11 because the context and discussion is not related.

Ro 9 is not being used to interpret Ro 11.

Ro 11:17-23 stands on its own.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No one that you know has eternal life right now.

I do. Alot of people I know do.

1. I looked to the cross. as the people of Israel looked at the serpent. I have Jesus promise I will never perish, and I have eternal life (john 3)
2. I asked for and recieved the water that flows to eternal life (john 4)
3. I have seen and believed. so I have passed from judgment to life. and have eternal life (john 5)
4. I have eaten the food which endures forever, the bread from heaven, the flesh and blood of John 6. Where I am promised I will never die, i will live forever. And I have eternal life (john 6)
5. eternal life ios not a wager we can earn, it is a gift (romans 6)
6. I have the hope of eternal life. which God who can not lie. promised before creation (titus 1:2)
7. I have that promise (1 john 2: 25)
remember, faith is the substance of things hope for. if my hope is eternal life and I do not think I have it. I have no faith.
8. I have the testimony that God has given me eternal life 1 John 5: 11
9 I have the words of John, which he said he specifically wrote so I can know without a doubt I have eternal life, and with this knowledge continue to believe in his name (1 john 5: 13)


I mean you have to toss out alot of scripture to think we do not have eternal life right here and now

 

[Clare73]

No one that you know has eternal life right now.

Jesus disagrees (Jn 3:36, 5:24, 6:47, 17:3, 11:25).

That is what the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) is about.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ro 9 is not being used to interpret Ro 11.

Ro 11:17-23 stands on its own.

Yet you went to romans 9.

You can not seperate the following verses from vs 17 - 23

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

This blindness in part that paul spoke of. will end one day,. we are even given the day, when the fullness of the gentiles has come in (the ot lets us know when this day will be)


“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

This is a covenant God made with Israel. not to the gentiles. and not to the church. It concerns Gods restoration of Israel. whe he returns to them and turns away their ungodliness. This happens at his second coming, when the time of the gentiles. the final gentile ruler. is defeated. and all earth is returned with Jesus as king


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake,

This is Israel. the current state of Israel is they are my enemy concerning the gospel. as they are currently in a state of rejection as a nation (not all God still has a remnant as he promised)

but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God made them a promise all the way back in Gen 15 and 17 and other places. That he chose them to be a special nation. and he gave them things, Later in lev 26. he gave them requirements for being blessed in that land. If they sinned, he would in the end totally wipe out their cities, and high places. they would be scattered throughout the world.

But in the same chapter. he says if they repent. and confess their sins and their fathers sins, he would remember the promise (the covenant)

because the promises of God are irrevocable.

Not just to his spiritual children (all who are born again) but to his national children (israel)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I do. Alot of people I know do.

You do not look immortal.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus disagrees

You reckon Jesus said people on earth are immortal?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You do not look immortal.

My body is not. But my soul is. It is spiritual alive when it was born again, and it will never die. Even though my body will die.

And I notice you skipped all those passages where jesus said otherwise. And John said otherwise. And paul said otherwise. (Concerning your belief no one has eternal life now)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

My body is not.

Oh, I see, so you've got a "spiritualised interpretation".

eternal life refers to the fullness of life with God, which begins with faith in Christ and is fulfilled in the afterlife. It's a central concept of Christian faith, encompassing the belief in life after death and the hope of resurrection.

Christians describe eternal life as the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. This life with God is characterized by seeing God "face to face" in the Beatific Vision, where one shares in God's own life, in perfect love, peace, and joy, free from suffering and sin.

Eternal life is not just an extension of temporal existence but a different, supernatural form of existence altogether. It's a life that transcends physical death, granted by God's grace, and is experienced fully in heaven for those who have lived in accordance with God's will.

But my soul is.

Well, isn't that the case with every human being?

And I notice you skipped all those passages where jesus said otherwise. And John said otherwise. And paul said otherwise. (Concerning your belief no one has eternal life now)

You didn't offer any explanation of the passages; I can list a bunch of passages too and will it do any good to complain that you didn't comment on them all? In fact, let's treat it as read that I listed a bunch of passages, and now the onus is on you to explain them all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus did..As did paul and John

aren't these not the true early church fathers?

No they didn’t, which is why the early church never taught it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Eternal life. Never die. Live forever. Can never be lost, Will never leave nor forsake us

Nobody actually receives eternal life until they abide in Christ and endure to the end. So you say that Paul taught that no one can lose their salvation, then why did he write to Timothy and tell him that if they deny Christ that Christ would deny them if he taught that they can’t lose their salvation?

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How could Christ deny Paul and Timothy if they can’t lose their salvation?