Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

[Guojing]

Romans 4:2-6 sums it right up. 1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

You are using Abraham in Gen 15, as Paul did here, which is correct.

But have you consider that, if at Gen 17, Abraham refused to be physically circumcised, would he still have been cut off, given the statement by God in Gen 17:11-14?

Or at Gen 12, if Abraham refused to move house and follow God to a new unknown place, would he still have been declared righteous later on at Gen 15 on the basis of faith? (Hebrews 11:8)?

 

[Danthemailman]

You are using Abraham in Gen 15, as Paul did here, which is correct.

But have you consider that, if at Gen 17, Abraham refused to be physically circumcised, would he still have been cut off, given the statement by God in Gen 17:11-14?

Or at Gen 12, if Abraham refused to move house and follow God to a new unknown place, would he still have been declared righteous later on at Gen 15 on the basis of faith? (Hebrews 11:8)?

If Abraham would have refused to be circumcised or refused to move and follow God to a new place he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

 

[Guojing]

If Abraham would have refused to be circumcised or refused to move and follow God to a new place he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

So the point again is that he needed to demonstrate his faith with the appropriate work at the appropriate time.

I am still waiting for a clear answer from the both of you, "What work do we need to do TODAY to demonstrate that we do not have a lack of faith to be saved"?

If the answer is none, then say it clearly.

 

[Danthemailman]

So the point again is that he needed to demonstrate his faith with the appropriate work at the appropriate time.

I am still waiting for a clear answer from the both of you, "What work do we need to do TODAY to demonstrate that we do not have a lack of faith to be saved"?

If the answer is none, then say it clearly.

There are multiple ways we may show our faith by our works today. James gives an example by providing a brother or sister in need with clothing and food. (James 2:15-18)

When I became a Christian God did not command me to build an ark or leave my home or sacrifice my son upon an altar, like He did with Noah and Abraham, but God did direct me to share the gospel with multiple family members including my wife and father in law who were at the time indoctrinated into a false religion.

It was very stressful and I dealt with a lot of resistance at first and was wondering if my wife might leave me but I continued to trust God and in the end my wife, along with my son and two more family members received Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God!

Hopefully that answers your $64,000 question.

 

[Guojing]

There are multiple ways we may show our faith by our works today. James gives an example by providing a brother or sister in need with clothing and food. (James 2:15-18)

When I became a Christian God did not command me to build an ark or leave my home or sacrifice my son upon an altar, like He did with Noah and Abraham, but God did direct me to share the gospel with multiple family members including my wife and father in law who were at the time indoctrinated into a false religion.

It was very stressful and I dealt with a lot of resistance at first and was wondering if my wife might leave me but I continued to trust God and in the end my wife, along with my son and two more family members received Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God!

Hopefully that answers your $64,000 question.

So you are saying,

• if one did not provide a brother or sister in need of food,
• nor share the gospel,

it will also demonstrate that we have no faith, and therefore we will not be saved?

 

[Danthemailman]

So you are saying,

• if one did not provide a brother or sister in need of food,
• nor share the gospel,

it will also demonstrate that we have no faith, and therefore we will not be saved?

I am simply saying those are two examples of how we may show our faith. If we truly have faith then it will show one way or another. The absence of evidence (no evidence at all) could be construed as evidence of absence. You seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can you be more specific if you believe we also need to do works today to demonstrate our faith?

What kind of work?

Do you believe that a child of God can not do works? That they can be hearers and no doers?

If you are willing to say "If Noah believed there is a flood but chose not to build an ark, he would still have been saved",

then I will see that you really believed that "no work was involved period".

But you kept avoiding making that clear statement.

lol.

You do not understand the word faith.

I could actually care less what you think. I care less what the word says.

those who have true saving faith WILL work..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are using Abraham in Gen 15, as Paul did here, which is correct.

But have you consider that, if at Gen 17, Abraham refused to be physically circumcised, would he still have been cut off, given the statement by God in Gen 17:11-14?

Or at Gen 12, if Abraham refused to move house and follow God to a new unknown place, would he still have been declared righteous later on at Gen 15 on the basis of faith? (Hebrews 11:8)?

lol. SO now your adding circumcision to the gospel.

wow man, you just keep digging deeper and deeper

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If Abraham would have refused to be circumcised or refused to move and follow God to a new place he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

It does not matter, He believed God.. And this faith that saved him also got him to get circumcised. and eventually got him to sacrifice his son.

But his faith saved him

Sounds like we have another one we need to stop feeding

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are multiple ways we may show our faith by our works today. James gives an example by providing a brother or sister in need with clothing and food. (James 2:15-18)

When I became a Christian God did not command me to build an ark or leave my home or sacrifice my son upon an altar, like He did with Noah and Abraham, but God did direct me to share the gospel with multiple family members including my wife and father in law who were at the time indoctrinated into a false religion.

It was very stressful and I dealt with a lot of resistance at first and was wondering if my wife might leave me but I continued to trust God and in the end my wife, along with my son and two more family members received Jesus Christ through faith. Praise God!

Hopefully that answers your $64,000 question.

Again

Eph 2: 8 - 9 says we are saved by grace period. But through receiving it by faith not works.

eph 2: 10 says we are his workmanship created in Christ for good works.

we all have our ark to build. Our circumcision. or our leaving our fathers house to go to a place unknown.

We just may not know what that work is yet..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am simply saying those are two examples of how we may show our faith. If we truly have faith then it will show one way or another. The absence of evidence (no evidence at all) could be construed as evidence of absence. You seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

he has to. to get his works based gospel on the OT appear to be true.

 

[Doug Brents]

The bible has

• different instructions to
• different groups of people at
• different times

regarding salvation requirements.

Instead of rightly dividing the word of truth, what he and you are doing is merely standing firm on those different instructions and disagreeing with each other based on them.

Yes, there have been different ways of being saved at different times and for different groups, but there has only been one way of being saved for all of mankind since the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

I am simply saying those are two examples of how we may show our faith. If we truly have faith then it will show one way or another. The absence of evidence (no evidence at all) could be construed as evidence of absence. You seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

But you were answering my question, "What work do we need to do TODAY to demonstrate that we do not have a lack of faith to be saved"?

If you want to give examples, then you have to conclude that, if we do not do those examples, we lack faith to be saved, or true saving faith as what your friend is using.

Otherwise, what is the difficulty in concluding there are NO works that we need to do today to show our faith, aka Romans 4:5?

 

[Guojing]

Do you believe that a child of God can not do works? That they can be hearers and no doers?

those who have true saving faith WILL work..

So what is your example of a work that if we do not do TODAY, that will show we do not have "true saving faith"?

Neither of you are willing to state what it is.

 

[Guojing]

Again

Eph 2: 8 - 9 says we are saved by grace period. But through receiving it by faith not works.

eph 2: 10 says we are his workmanship created in Christ for good works.

we all have our ark to build. Our circumcision. or our leaving our fathers house to go to a place unknown.

We just may not know what that work is yet..

So can I conclude your answer is actually "I do not know but I am SURE there is some work for us to be done to show we have saving faith".

I am fine if that is your answer.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, there have been different ways of being saved at different times and for different groups, but there has only been one way of being saved for all of mankind since the death and resurrection of Jesus.

When did that one way begin, according to you?

At Matthew 28?
At Acts 2?
At Acts 9?
At Acts 28?

 

[Doug Brents]

When did that one way begin, according to you?

At Matthew 28?
At Acts 2?
At Acts 9?
At Acts 28?

According to Scripture (not me) the one way of salvation under the NT began to be in effect at Jesus' death. It could be argued that there may have been a very short transition period, but I believe that if there was a transition period it ended around the time that Cornelius was brought into the Church.
Matt 28:19 says that we are to go and teach people about Jesus, and baptize them into Christ (which is where they well receive salvation (1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, etc.).
Acts 2:38 says that repentance and baptism are both to be done in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Acts 9 and Acts 28 say nothing that contradicts these truths.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So what is your example of a work that if we do not do TODAY, that will show we do not have "true saving faith"?

Neither of you are willing to state what it is.

You have it backwards. I am not told to be a fruit inspector.

Its not that I am unwilling. it is that there i no answer.

There is no work anyone could do to show we do not have true saving faith. David committed adultery and murder. yet again, he was called a man after Gods heart.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So can I conclude your answer is actually "I do not know but I am SURE there is some work for us to be done to show we have saving faith".

Nope. that is not my answer at all.

I am fine if that is your answer.

lol. What you appear to be doing is trying to twist what others say to make it look like it is them not you

I have been saved by grace through faith period.. It has been that way since adam.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have it backwards. I am not told to be a fruit inspector.

Its not that I am unwilling. it is that there i no answer.

There is no work anyone could do to show we do not have true saving faith. David committed adultery and murder. yet again, he was called a man after Gods heart.

Why was David a man after God's heart? Because he immediately turned back to God after he was presented with his sin. He didn't try to hide from. it. He didn't deny it. He turned to God and asked forgiveness, and then proceeded to again walk in the way of God. We are called to examine our brothers (after examining ourselves first) and if we find them in a sin to help lead them out of that sin (James 5:19-20). If we, first don't know the truth, and second, aren't looking to safeguard our brothers from sin, then we won't notice them in sin to be able to lead them out from it.