The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[LoveofTruth]

But I am NOT asking what has been said -

well, alot has been said that clearly shows the body ministry of God's order and there is no one man pastor gift over all in the New testament. So what has been said is a foundation to understanding what the differing gifts do and how they function in the body. I believe I am aware of what you are trying to do by stressing the meaning of the Greek word "pastor". But it wont work in this case.

I am not asking about errors as you perceive them

I expose errors according to scripture and the actual errors written by many many many assemblies in their man made By-Laws.

I am NOT asking about what anyone nor any organization has said - so we can not address those things again.

Well, when I expose the errors of the one man pastor ministry as it is functioning today as contrary to the body ministry where all can edify. It is important.

I am asking you @LoveofTruth to explain what is the SCRIPTURAL ROLE OF A MODERN PASTOR IS - what does his ministry entail or look like?

This is a different question you are asking now. You asked before what is the "modern Pastor role in the church today", that is different than what is the scriptural role of a Modern pastor."

you keep using the word "modern"

the word "modern" means

adjective. of or relating to present and recent time; not ancient or remote: modern city life. characteristic of present and recent time; contemporary; not antiquated or obsolete: modern viewpoints."

This is part of the confusion here. I speak of the truth from scripture that has always been since the days of the New Testament church. But the "modern" world and ideas are not always in line with that. So we have an issue there.

But as far as the role and function of a "pastor" gift in SCRIPTURE. I am speaking again of the New Testament gifts the five fold specifically here as you quoted in Ephesians 4:11. In that verse we see a partial function for all five gifts, and that is for the perfecting of the saints and the edifying of the body. So we can start by saying that the pastor gift is for the perfecting of the saints and edifying of the body. But those functions are also for the apostles, prophet evangelist and teacher gifts.

The word "Pastor" appears only one time in the New Testament (in the KJV) and that is in Ephesians 4:11 and the other two places that are added in some newer translations (modern ones), the same word in Greek is not used, that word refers more to feeding and is not just speaking of the pastor gift, in fact Peter ( who is an apostle) includes himself in that feeding (1 Peter 5:1 KJV).

The role of this particular gift is not seen in the new testament letters anywhere. We have very little to see how it functions. We can simply take the meaning of the word "pastor" in Greek and Hebrew perhaps, and try to understand that gift.

These men show where to get food and nurture and care for the body, They will also help to others be safe and secure in their faith and edify or build them up.

Each gift is for the church and can also extend to the outreach of others. An apostle prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher all have specific roles and functions in the body (as well as every believer has a function or "office" as well Romans 12) and can extend to the outreach of others as well.This again is a long discussion, perhaps an entire thread of the function of these five fold gifts in the church and the outward applications and reach is needed as well.

But they all help others who are in the kingdom, in the good pasture. The apostle are sent ones and apostles can lay foundations and preaches the gospel to lay the foundation and bring others into that good place and feed the flock edifying them and perfecting them, they also touch on all the ministries in some area and at first they are vital to the new church because many gifts are needed and they will sometimes teach pastor, evangelist and have a prophetic aspect. As the body matures and the gifts are known among them, the other believers can edify eachother better. Then a Prophet who shares the revelation and mind of God and speaking under unction to the body in that place, he helps the body to know Gods mind and direct will ether present or future in that place, The evangelist will help others come into that place and also give understanding of the gospel and the understanding of keeping and building up others in that place , the teacher will instruct in that place and build up the doctrine and foundations as well, the pastor will show where to get food and nurture and keep safe others in that place and build up others with care and patience.

“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV) Notice Paul doesn't mention the pastor gift here.

We see that the elder/overseers are for the feeding of the flock and edifying, the elder is who they are, an older believer in the faith, mature in the faith, the overseer is what they do they watch over and care for others and protect from wolves and false doctrine etc, but they each might have a different gift, some may be apostles (as we see Peter was and he was also an elder.overseer) and some may be prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. We see men like Timothy * who was an apostle also told to do the work of an evangelist. Some have more than one gift.

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV)

We see that Peter was an apostle and also an elder/overseer. This shows that elder/overseers are not only the pastor gifts.

"For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment....“And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.”" (Ezekiel 34:11-16, 23 KJV)

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. " ( John 10:16 KJV)

Jesus is the one shepherd over the flock and He works in all believers and gives gifts and in this all believers are to walk and edify one another in Christ

God works in believers to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work (Hebrews 13:20,21)

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, ​

...and not just the one pastor gift. So how did the "modern" world simply stress this one gift over the others? When clearly all five are still needed for the perfecting and edifying of the body until we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Since you enjoy the Greek - let's look at the Greek

Pastors in Ephesians is transliterated "poimen" Strongs G4166

It is found 18 times in the New Testament - 15times it is translated shepherd - two times it refers to Christ as the Shepherd and one time pastor.

Thayers states this:

ποιμήν, ποιμένος, ὁ (akin to the noun ποίᾳ, which see: (or from the root meaning 'to protect'; cf. Curtius, § 372; Fick 1:132)), from Homer down; the Sept. for רֹעֶה, a herdsman, especially a shepherd;
a. properly: Matthew 9:36; Matthew 25:32; Matthew 26:31; Mark 6:34; Mark 14:27; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12; in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow, John 10:11, 14.

b. metaphorically, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, John 10:16; 1 Peter 2:25; Hebrews 13:20 (of the Jewish Messiah, Ezekiel 34:23); of the overseers of the Christian assemblies (A. V. pastors), Ephesians 4:11; cf. Ritschl, Entstehung der altkathol. Kirche, edition 2, p. 350f; (Hatch, Barnpron Lects. for 1880, p. 123f). (Of kings and princes we find ποιμένες λαῶν in Homer and Hesiod.)

As for the early church, there were Deacons, Elders and Bishops (overseers).

I fully understand your POV - no need to repeat it again.

We just do not agree. There is 2,000 years of Christianity which does not agree either. Have there been excesses - sure

Jeremiah warned of such

Jer 2:8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

Humans will fail and it is still true today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Gotcha - you don't know.

I do know and I have shared,

I have shared all you can know (scripturally ) about the one word used in Ephesians 4:11 being the pastor gift.

I do know, and this is not a game of gotcha. I am not childishly trying to say "gotcha".

Just saying "gotcha" means nothing if you don't explain in full what you mean.
I ask you do you see that the entire body can minister to one another when they gather and that all are to function in this ? if so does the gathering you go allow this or is there one person above all called the Pastor?

see if you will answer this and then show scripture for your words to prove your order.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Gotcha - you don't know.

? your words mean nothing unless you explain in detail what you mean.

I wonder if you even read what I wrote. I explained many things that a pastor gift does.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Regardless - I know you vehemently disagree - I just wanted to get the other side of the equation out. Thanks for listening.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I do know and I have shared,

I have shared all you can know (scripturally ) about the one word used in Ephesians 4:11 being the pastor gift.

I do know, and this is not a game of gotcha. I am not childishly trying to say "gotcha".

Just saying "gotcha" means nothing if you don't explain in full what you mean.
I ask you do you see that the entire body can minister to one another when they gather and that all are to function in this ? if so does the gathering you go allow this or is there one person above all called the Pastor?

see if you will answer this and then show scripture for your words to prove your order.

Look at the post above I explained it using Greek and Scripture - you are so quick to retort - I had not finished the edit. Post #322

 

[Always in His Presence]

you keep using the word "modern"

What is the title of the thread?

Here - I'll help you

The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role​

Why do I use the word modern? Because it is the subject of the thread - your own words made it so. If you don't like the word YOU should not have used it in the title. That is pretty plain.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Since you enjoy the Greek - let's look at the Greek

Pastors in Ephesians is transliterated "poimen" Strongs G4166

It is found 18 times in the New Testament - 15times it is translated shepherd - two times it refers to Christ as the Shepherd and one time pastor.

Thayers states this:

ποιμήν, ποιμένος, ὁ (akin to the noun ποίᾳ, which see: (or from the root meaning 'to protect'; cf. Curtius, § 372; Fick 1:132)), from Homer down; the Sept. for רֹעֶה, a herdsman, especially a shepherd;
a. properly: Matthew 9:36; Matthew 25:32; Matthew 26:31; Mark 6:34; Mark 14:27; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12; in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow, John 10:11, 14.

b. metaphorically, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, John 10:16; 1 Peter 2:25; Hebrews 13:20 (of the Jewish Messiah, Ezekiel 34:23); of the overseers of the Christian assemblies (A. V. pastors), Ephesians 4:11; cf. Ritschl, Entstehung der altkathol. Kirche, edition 2, p. 350f; (Hatch, Barnpron Lects. for 1880, p. 123f). (Of kings and princes we find ποιμένες λαῶν in Homer and Hesiod.)

As for the early church, there were Deacons, Elders and Bishops (overseers).

I fully understand your POV - no need to repeat it again.

We just do not agree. There is 2,000 years of Christianity which does not agree either. Have there been excesses - sure

Jeremiah warned of such

Jer 2:8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

Humans will fail and it is still true today.

You are in error here and base too much on Greek meanings.

We see plural elder/overseers in every church. Never one man over the body and certainly not one pastor gift over all. The word Pastors in plural is used only once in the NT. Shepherd is a different word and meaning, they show where to get food and keep safe and nutrure the body. But so do apostles and prophets and teachers and evangelist.

In some way even an apostle and prophet and teacher gift are shepherd- like, leading into various areas of Gods truth.

We see clearly that the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 were made overseers by God. The elder/overseer is the same persons. They may be apostles (as Peter was in 1 Peter 5:1) or they may have other gifts. But nowhere do we see one pastor gift over all.

Its interesting how you seem to avoid most of what I write and do not respond. Even when I showed you apostles first , then prophets etc...

and so you stress one Greek word to build a superstructure of one man over all the church which is nowhere found in scripture?

we clearly see that apostles gifts not just pastor gifts can be elders/overseers and feed the flock as 1 Peter 5:1

and then we see that elders are plural in every church singular

“And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.” (Acts 14:23 KJV)

and so plural elders/overseers are the same persons. Always plural as I can show from other scriptures and never just pastor gifts. The words elder and overseer (Bishop) are connected

Notice this verse was spoken to elders plural

"“And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.”...Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. " (Acts 20)

and we see that elders are referred to as Bishops (overseers), same persons.

"For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife,...7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God" ( Titus 1:5, 7 KJV)

again you are corrected here in your assumption based upon one word.

and elders ( that can have gifts of apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers) are always plural in scripture. we read of this in many places, never one man over all in a pastor gift._

“Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:” (James 5;14 KJV)

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” ( Hebrews 13:17 KJV and this verse has explaining that does not make one man or men to lord over. The meanings of the words "obey" and rule.

“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

What is the title of the thread?

Here - I'll help you

The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role​

Why do I use the word modern? Because it is the subject of the thread - your own words made it so. If you don't like the word YOU should not have used it in the title. That is pretty plain.

No, I refer to the word "modern" as opposed to the scripture order and truth from ancient days as revealed to the body.

I use the word in a negative meaning. You did not use it this way.

so again you are corrected

and i adjusted the title here to be even more clear

 

[LoveofTruth]

Regardless - I know you vehemently disagree - I just wanted to get the other side of the equation out. Thanks for listening.

I have addressed this issue you tried to make for many years. If you read carefully what I showed I prove by scripture that the elder/overseers are the same persons and that they can be in different gifts and not all be pastor gifts, as i showed from scripture.

So whatever you try to create by one word pastors in Ephesians 4. We never see that gift mentioned again in the new testament but we do read of elder/overseers/Bishops all over in the plural form.

so your case does into prove anything. I could also address the word pastors and shepherds and show that there s some difference in the use of the words in scripture as applied to different gifts. An apostle can also be called a shepherd, etc.

But Im not sure if you would read it and respond to every point I make.

I would like you to respond to some of the clear points I made in this thread.

It is clear from scripture that the body can and must be allowed to function n every gathering as Christ leads and works in them. This functioning of the body ministry fights against the "modern" pastor role over all who is in charge of all the activities and ministry in many assemblies. This is clear from scripture. So to try and put the one pastors gift above all based on a meaning of the word does not work.

the gotcha trap you tried to lay has snared you in it it seems.

There is no other side from scripture and the order shown in scripture.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I expose errors according to scripture and the actual errors written by many many many assemblies in their man made By-Laws.

If you will indulge my curiosity, do you have an assembly with which you worship regularly, or do you visit various assemblies exposing errors in their practices? If you have an assembly with which you worship regularly, could you please describe how it functions regarding the things you have been talking about?

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you will indulge my curiosity, do you have an assembly with which you worship regularly, or do you visit various assemblies exposing errors in their practices? If you have an assembly with which you worship regularly, could you please describe how it functions regarding the things you have been talking about?

I don’t want to indulge your curiosity my friend, I want to stir up your spirit and exhort you to see these things and walk in the truth and tell others as well and gather in homes with others abd ceait in the Lord.

I have been involved with home meeting for many years is few meetings went for 18 years. I have taught these things for about 40 years.

I don’t want to sidetrack this important discussion with personal things here.

The scriptural order of God is the most important thing. Where Christ effectually works in Beverly part to edify one another.

I truly believe Jesus Christ is outside knocking wanting to come into believers and the gatherings to participate with them and effectually work in them. But many are rich and increased with goods and think they need nothing they are unaware of their true state.

These things are important and cannot be stressed enough.

Without body ministry in Christ abd with a pastor or priest over all that hinders free body ministry at any time when gathered great problems happen.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Since you enjoy the Greek - let's look at the Greek

Pastors in Ephesians is transliterated "poimen" Strongs G4166

It is found 18 times in the New Testament - 15times it is translated shepherd - two times it refers to Christ as the Shepherd and one time pastor.

Thayers states this:

ποιμήν, ποιμένος, ὁ (akin to the noun ποίᾳ, which see: (or from the root meaning 'to protect'; cf. Curtius, § 372; Fick 1:132)), from Homer down; the Sept. for רֹעֶה, a herdsman, especially a shepherd;
a. properly: Matthew 9:36; Matthew 25:32; Matthew 26:31; Mark 6:34; Mark 14:27; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12; in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow, John 10:11, 14.

b. metaphorically, the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, John 10:16; 1 Peter 2:25; Hebrews 13:20 (of the Jewish Messiah, Ezekiel 34:23); of the overseers of the Christian assemblies (A. V. pastors), Ephesians 4:11; cf. Ritschl, Entstehung der altkathol. Kirche, edition 2, p. 350f; (Hatch, Barnpron Lects. for 1880, p. 123f). (Of kings and princes we find ποιμένες λαῶν in Homer and Hesiod.)

As for the early church, there were Deacons, Elders and Bishops (overseers).

I fully understand your POV - no need to repeat it again.

We just do not agree. There is 2,000 years of Christianity which does not agree either. Have there been excesses - sure

Jeremiah warned of such

Jer 2:8The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

Humans will fail and it is still true today.

The word pastors and pastor has various meanings. In the Old Testamebt even in the verse in Jeremiah you use we see there were priest. The priest were the ones over the people and we also read the pastors and prophets were mebtioned. But in a negative way. It’s interesting that the word pastors is only found in Jeremiah as pastors. They are not like the pastors of the New Testament nor are the priest nor are the prophets exactly the sane ministry. To try and go to the Old Testament and find a Hebrew word and apply it to the new test assent is not wise. The word pastors has many meanings in the Hebrew, many.

“a primitive root; to tend a flock; i.e. pasture it; intransitively, to graze (literally or figuratively); generally to rule; by extension, to associate with (as a friend):--X break, companion, keep company with, devour, eat up, evil entreat, feed, use as a friend, make friendship with, herdman, keep (sheep)(-er), pastor, + shearing house, shepherd, wander, waste”

It is used of many words like , broken, companion, company, devour, eat, entreat, fed, feed, feeders, feeding, friend, friendship, herdmen, keeper, keeping, kept, pastor (one time in Jeremiah), pastors, 7 times only in Jeremiah), sheeting, shepherd(often used of the Lord), then, up, wander, waste.

So I think there is much more to this issue that you are not considering.

But in the New Testament we see elders plural who are overseers and may be any of the five fold gifts they can be apostles also and elders as Peter was.

 

[Always in His Presence]

But in the New Testament we see elders plural who are overseers and may be any of the five fold gifts they can be apostles also and elders as Peter was.

And Pastors are one of the five fold ministry. They carry no less importance the Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist and Teachers.

you said:

Each gift is for the church and can also extend to the outreach of others. An apostle prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher all have specific roles and functions in the body (as well as every believer has a function or "office" as well Romans 12) and can extend to the outreach of others as well.This again is a long discussion, perhaps an entire thread of the function of these five fold gifts in the church and the outward applications and reach is needed as well.

The Word of God plainly states:

Matt 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.​

It's obvious the the Pastor's role, while having it's weaknesses and flaws - as is present in each of the five fold ministers - has been producing good fruit (Salvation, Healing, Repentance) for over 2,000 years.

Two questions:

1. How can something as flawed as you are describing - so unscriptural - produce fruit globally for 2,000 plus years. Billions of Salvations - that is a whole lot of good fruit.

2. Can you point to any assembly in history that functions as you describe?

 

[seeking.IAM]

I don’t want to indulge your curiosity my friend, I want to stir up your spirit and exhort you to see these things and walk in the truth

I thought how your assembly practices might serve as an example that goes beyond your words.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I thought how your assembly practices might serve as an example that goes beyond your words.

I honestly do not think an assembly like that exists, at least not in any real size.

 

[The Liturgist]

I honestly do not think an assembly like that exists, at least not in any real size.

At one point he expressed admiration for the Quakers, but given the direction they have taken away from Christianity, with the exception of Evangelical Quakers which have pastors and “programmed worship” rather than “waiting worship” I would think that’s not the best option. If anything the experience of the Quakers underscores the need for Pastors, to shepherd the flock and keep them focused on the salvific and life-giving Gospel of Christ our True God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I thought how your assembly practices might serve as an example that goes beyond your words.

They have served as examples for many years.

We have had others in the past who were part of the religious system who would hear scripturally these truths and see then but we’re skeptics of them existing then when they saw a functioning body but where others are being helped and cared for abd edification takes place, they left thier religious form and gathered in the home meetings where the body edifies itself. Sone grew greatly and were able t minister in teaching and oversight and many ways to help the body.

Yes these do exist all over the world.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I honestly do not think an assembly like that exists, at least not in any real size.

Yes they do exist all over the world.

And size is not the issue. Although if a meeting is too large it won’t be able to gather in a home they should begin another meeting in another home and grow.

We had about 70 people in a large home at one time. It was a great meeting place and mutual edification, spiritual songs, a large tabled full of food, fellowship itvitva wonderful way to be in Christ where love and grace are found.

And if a meeting is too large to function that can hinder the body. Smaller home gatherings where all know eachother like a family is best.

The largest home meeting we see in scripture was 120 in the upper room of a house (a large room no doubt).

 

[LoveofTruth]

At one point he expressed admiration for the Quakers, but given the direction they have taken away from Christianity, with the exception of Evangelical Quakers which have pastors and “programmed worship” rather than “waiting worship” I would think that’s not the best option. If anything the experience of the Quakers underscores the need for Pastors, to shepherd the flock and keep them focused on the salvific and life-giving Gospel of Christ our True God.

There are a few other brothers I have met from various parts of the world and also I have visited a large conference in South Carolina where home meeting and those in them gather at times to fellowship. There are web sites and many who understand and live in these things and God’s order to sone degree.