female preacher

[Clare73]

And this responds to my post, how?
"I [Paul] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Note the word "usurp" αὐθεντέω authenteo "one who acts on his own authority, autocratic" If a church appoints a woman deacon or pastor she is NOT acting on her own and usurping authority. And OBTW I belong to a large southern denomination that largely does not have women pastors or deacons. A few years ago the pastor of a large church retired and the church elected a woman associate pastor to be head pastor. When the denominational big wigs learned of it they threatened to kick the church out of the denomination.

It supports it.

Calm down. . .

 

[Strong in Him]

I rest my case.

You haven't got a case.

 

[Clare73]

You haven't got a case.

The Divine Judge gets to decide that, not you.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Divine Judge gets to decide that, not you.

No, it's clear from Scripture.

I said:

Paul was not told - and never said - "I am passing on a command from God which will stand for all time - women must never preach, lead or be ordained. If they tell you I have called them to do this, they are wrong".

which I said would be a CLEAR teaching. You highlighted several words and seemed shocked by this.
So show me; where are those EXACT words in 1 Timothy 2? And where did Jesus say them?
Answer: they aren't there and Jesus didn't say them.
Jesus would never have said them; he elevated women and went against the norms of society to show that he valued them. And what is the response of some parts of his church; how do they show that they love women as Jesus did? "Sit down, be quiet; you only want to speak and lead because you are deluded and feminist". Thank God my church is not like that.

 

[Clare73]

No, it's clear from Scripture.

Which does not abrogate my statement.

 

[Strong in Him]

It supports it.

Supports what?

If a woman were to stand up in the middle of a service and say "I feel led to take over this service, stop preaching" or "I feel led to take over this church, let me have your seat" that would be snatching authority from a man; undermining his authority, humiliating him. Maybe the church that you go to allows for that possibility - that anyone who feels led to lead/preach can do so on the spot.
That is not the case - even in churches which have female preachers and clergy.

You don't seem to realise that the process of selection for ordination is a long one - and involves many other people.
In my church (UK Methodist) a person cannot be ordained without first becoming a Local Preacher. That involves interviews, academic study, assessed services- and lots of prayer. IF a trainee preacher passes everything and they, the congregations and the other preachers are satisfied, they will eventually be accredited/licensed. All this can take up to 5 years - longer, if there are extenuating circumstances. Only after a person becomes a preacher can they then begin to think about ordination, (at least, they may think about it sooner but they have to be licensed before their application will be accepted.)
The process for ordination may last a year or 18 months - the candidate has to produce a portfolio and do various other pieces of work. When it's completed they will go before the Circuit meeting who vote on whether or not to support their application. Even if everyone voted against them they could still go onto the next stage, but the first question would be "why don't your circuit support you?" The second stage is the District Candidates Committee, at which they may, or may not, be recommended. If they ARE recommended they do it all over again but with clergy from all over the country.
If a candidate gets through all that they go to college for 2 years.
If they survive college they become a Probation Minister for 2 years - unless they are having problems/are not very good in which case they may either be given time to improve or it will be suggested they are not in the right ministry.
If they survive all that, and they, the clergy and the congregations are happy, THEN they will be ordained.

A call is tested, tested and tested again - all this involves other people, prayer, discussion, study and more prayer. It involves male clergy who interview, assess, pray with, teach, mentor and train candidates, and congregations, who are more than capable of saying if they think an ordinand is "in the wrong job". In fact, at the ordination, the church is asked if they will accept that person's ministry.

Now how is any of that violently snatching authority from anyone?
If a trainee preacher/ordinand does not have support from other people, they won't get through.

 

[Clare73]

Supports what?

Not addressed to you. . .

 

[Strong in Him]

Which does not abrogate my statement.

You can't show me where the exact words that you highlighted were said by Paul or by Jesus, because they weren't.

If God had commanded that women should not be ordained, be in leadership or even preach, he would spell it out and repeat it over and over again.
He would not have appointed Deborah as judge over all Israel.
He would not have appointed prophetesses, female teachers, deacons and so on.
Read the OT. The law, and 10 commandments, were very clear - literally carved in stone. The people were commanded to teach God's commands to their children, to tie them onto their foreheads so they did not lose or forget them. They sinned and broke God's law big time - and were punished for it, every time; but they could not claim that that law wasn't clear.

Whereas people have been debating this passage for years. Women are not punished for preaching in church and men are not punished for allowing, and training, them to do so.

 

[Strong in Him]

Not addressed to you. . .

So? It's a public forum, you could still answer it.

If you are able.

 

[Clare73]

So? It's a public forum, you could still answer it.

If you are able.

If you are not a pastor, no disagreement exists.

 

[Clare73]

You can't show me where the exact words that you highlighted were said by Paul or by Jesus, because they weren't.

If God had commanded that women should not be ordained, be in leadership or even preach, he would spell it out and repeat it over and over again.

And you know this how?

 

[Strong in Him]

And you know this how?

Read the rest of my post.
How often in the OT did God, through the prophets, tell people to obey his law - and more to the point, say they were being punished for not obeying the law? They were told to teach the laws to their children and to write them on their foreheads. The 10 commandments were put into the ark of the Covenant, which got carried around with them. Joshua confirmed the covenant with the people. Godly kings obeyed the law and made sure the people did too.
The people might have thought that the law was too hard, too restrictive or whatever; they could not complain that they didn't know it.
God told people, again and again, that they needed to obey his law.

And Jesus - God in the flesh - came to teach us God's will. If women never being leaders in his church was part of that, he would have said so. His actions showed that he allowed women to learn, speak, witness and tell others about him. Society didn't allow that; he did.

 

[Strong in Him]

If you are not a pastor, no disagreement exists.

Well it does - I am not a Pastor but I believe that God can call women to be Pastors.
You don't.

 

[Der Alte]

It supports it.

Calm down. . .

I have no need to "calm down" I am a 100% disabled combat veteran, nothing fazes me. See my picture <= over there that was taken when FDR was POTUS.

 

[Clare73]

Read the rest of my post.
How often in the OT did God, through the prophets, tell people to obey his law - and more to the point, say they were being punished for not obeying the law? They were told to teach the laws to their children and to write them on their foreheads. The 10 commandments were put into the ark of the Covenant, which got carried around with them. Joshua confirmed the covenant with the people. Godly kings obeyed the law and made sure the people did too.
The people might have thought that the law was too hard, too restrictive or whatever; they could not complain that they didn't know it.
God told people, again and again, that they needed to obey his law.

And Jesus - God in the flesh - came to teach us God's will. If women never being leaders in his church was part of that, he would have said so. His actions showed that he allowed women to learn, speak, witness and tell others about him. Society didn't allow that; he did.

You know the NT distinction between teaching and teaching with pastoral authority as well as I do. . .or you should.

 

[Strong in Him]

You know the NT distinction between teaching and teaching with pastoral authority as well as I do. . .or you should.

You're going to have to explain it then - or at least, explain how you understand it.

 

[Clare73]

You're going to have to explain it then - or at least, explain how you understand it.

Phoebe taught Apollos at home, he then being one of the masters of Scripture.
Her teaching did not have authority over Apollos.

Timothy, Titus, etc. taught Scripture by the authority of Paul, their teaching having authority over the assemblies (1Tim 4:16, Ti 2:7).

I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

 

[Strong in Him]

Phoebe taught Apollos at home, he then being one of the masters of Scripture.
Her teaching did not have authority over Apollos.

Timothy, Titus, etc. taught Scripture by the authority of Paul, their teaching having authority over the assemblies (1Tim 4:16, Ti 2:7).

So you're saying that if someone teaches the Gospel to one person in their own homes, that's allowed. But if they teach the same Gospel in church - with several people present; it isn't?
"Pastoral teaching" = "in front of other people"?

I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

I note your failure to show where the word "Pastor" is in 1 Tim 2:12-14.
(You still haven't got the correct reference.)

How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

How many computers do we see in the first 1800+ years of the church?
Why are you using one then?

 

[Clare73]

How many computers do we see in the first 1800+ years of the church?
Why are you using one then?

Your seeing that as a parallel to women pastors in the church pretty much demonstrates why women are not allowed as pastors in the NT.

 

[Strong in Him]

Your seeing that as a parallel to woman pastors in the church pretty much explains the problem.

Why?
You're saying that if something didn't happen in the first 1800 years of the church then it can't happen. So that should apply to things like computers.

There were no computers in the first 1800 years of the church (or if there were, they were not like ours) because the technology had not been discovered.
There were no female clergy in the first 1800 years of the church (or if there were, they have been quietly ignored) because people had not asked questions about female clergy or debated the matter. In my experience, something only needs to not happen for about 5-10 years before people start saying "we've never done it this way before" and use that as an excuse not to start.
Yet there were women like Mary Magdalene who told the disciples that the Lord had risen. Jesus appeared to her first, not his male disciples. There were women like Phoebe who was a deacon and Philip's daughters who were prophetesses. Later on there was Catherine of Siena, Julian of Norwich, Hilda of Whitby who founded monasteries/convents, wrote devotional books, helped and advised the Pope, taught nuns and Cardinals etc etc. John Wesley appointed women to be preachers. Catherine Booth preached and helped to lead the Salvation Army. And so on.