Woman who preaches in Church

[com7fy8]

OT teaching is replaced by NT teaching, where such is presented,
starting with animal sacrifices for the remission of sin.

Well, Abigail was no animal sacrifice! And we do have early scripture with lessons with a New Testament meaning. For one example, James in chapter two of his epistle uses how Abraham offered up Isaac as an example of a work of living faith . . . not of a work of the Law of Moses.

I personally trust that Abigail is another example with a very beneficial New Testament meaning.

Be careful what you think and feel and say about Abigail!

Peter in his epistle uses Sarah as an example for New Testament ladies . . . 1 Peter 3:1-6.

So, I would say the early scriptures do have things which can help us discover how to relate in God's love through Jesus.

And David gave God the glory for Abigail helping him. David was ready to use bloody vengeance as his means for solving his problem with Nabal. But Abigail stood up to him and helped him learn how to use love as his means, instead. This was teaching him in a very important way. And this fits with how in the New Testament Jesus teaches us how to love. So, I see how in the early scriptures we do have things with a New Testament
***love*** meaning.

And Abigail is an excellent example of how a real lady can help a man learn how to love . . . a very important way of teaching.

A really Christian woman teaches by her example. Men learn from her. Example can speak much louder and teach so deeper than pulpit words.

 

[Strong in Him]

It does not deal with 2 Tim 2:13-14, the principle of creation in which the prohibition is grounded.

You've used the wrong reference again.
If you want to be taken seriously, you should show that you know which Bible passage you are talking about.

 

[Strong in Him]

The position of pastor in the NT church was a teaching authority for the assembly.

To my knowledge, the NT mentions Pastors only once, in Ephesians 4:11 where Paul says they are a gift of the Spirit. He does not say that the role is only for men; that the Spirit will never call a woman to that position.
The rest of the time, the NT talks of elders and overseers - which are not mentioned at all in 1 Tim 2:12.

 

[Lost Witness]

A woman cannot sit at the head of the congregation as Christ is the HEAD..
God established an order.
God the father, the Lord Jesus Christ the Husband then the Wife.
The Lord is the Head of the church, as the husband is the head of his household over his wife and children ..
WHy would the pulpit be different?
When scripture clearly states a woman shouldn't sit at the head of the congregation

 

[Paidiske]

The idea that preaching puts one at the "head" of the congregation is, in itself, an interesting assumption; and one without a Scriptural foundation.

 

[Strong in Him]

When scripture clearly states a woman shouldn't sit at the head of the congregation

It doesn't.
Clergy sit at the front of the church, not because they are superior but so that they can be seen.

 

[Clare73]

To my knowledge, the NT mentions Pastors only once, in Ephesians 4:11 where Paul says they are a gift of the Spirit. He does not say that the role is only for men; that the Spirit will never call a woman to that position.
The rest of the time, the NT talks of elders and overseers - which are not mentioned at all in 1 Tim 2:12.

A really Christian woman teaches by her example. Men learn from her. Example can speak much louder and teach so deeper than pulpit words.

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

2) How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

 

[Strong in Him]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

I note your failure to quote the relevant Scripture.
If you can't be bothered to check the Bible, after you post and the reference turns blue, place your mouse over it and the scripture will appear. When you see that you've written the wrong one, you can then go back and edit your post.

 

[Clare73]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.
2) How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

I note your failure to quote the relevant Scripture.

You have yet to address either one of the above.

Non-responsive. . .

 

[Strong in Him]

You have yet to address either one of the above.

Non-responsive. . .

I told you a while back I am not going to do that.
We cannot read Scripture without considering who it was written to, the circumstances, the type of writing and considering the context. I wrote a long post giving some background on all that - and you dismissed it as irrelevant.
I have since written other long posts - and short one, asking questions - which you have ignored.

It doesn't surprise me that you use this as an excuse to not answer, and can't even address the fact that you continue to write posts without bothering to check the reference.

 

[Clare73]

I told you a while back I am not going to do that.

Q.E.D.

We cannot read Scripture without considering who it was written to, the circumstances, the type of writing and considering the context. I wrote a long post giving some background on all that - and you dismissed it as irrelevant.
I have since written other long posts - and short one, asking questions - which you have ignored.

It doesn't surprise me that you use this as an excuse to not answer, and can't even address the fact that you continue to write posts without bothering to check the reference.

 

[Strong in Him]

Q.E.D.

Not at all; you've dismissed my posts, and my questions, before.

Tell me, why do you want me to write an exegesis?
Do you want to learn, or know what the text says? Do you not understand it? Are you open to the possibility that you may learn something?
Or do you want me to read this passage (as if I haven't done so before), suddenly see something, or understand it and come around to your way of thinking?

If you can honestly say it's the first; you have not seen any exegesis on this passage before and you want to know what it really says - then I'll address that.
But if I end up writing quite a long post just for you to dismiss it, argue about it and say that I'm trying to justify my position, or get around the "clear principle" - I'm not interested.

 

[Rose_bud]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

2) How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

Hey Clare

There is quite a few material available for the ordination of women prior to the 1800's.

2)If you read the books for the ordination of women and not just those against. You'll see the evidence is available. "The hidden history of women's ordination" by Gary Macy is but one (a very scholarly Catholic Writing). Another writing is "How the subjugation of women became gospel truth" by Beth Barr. Check out the references cited. Both of them have the background of a historian.

1)There are others but as a minimum, below is a summary from Duvall and Hays on how to discover the theological principle.
The biblical principle should
1. be timeless and not tied to a specific situation.
2. not be culturally bound.
3. correspond to the teaching of the rest of Scripture.
4.be relevant to both ancient and modern audiences.
5. be reflected in the text.

It has to as a minimum meet the above criteria otherwise the text has not been handled correctly.

The above is from "Grasping Gods Word" a very easy to read book on exegeting the biblical text.

@Strong in Him is correct. You have to come to the text open-minded, (as one poster said here on CF years ago, but not so open-minded that your brains fall out). Meaning you have to come willing to grappling with uncomfortable truths, until you are fully persuaded.

I'll share from my own experience.

I was in a similar space with my own ordination. I understood and could make all the arguments for why a woman should be ordained into ministry. But I also knew the arguments against. My pastor and the congregation recognized the call and was waiting for my agreement, but I was reluctant (I deliberately delayed). I realised later that my reluctance was because of fear. I knew it would be difficult, that opposition would come. But God knew my heart, my desires and fears and I willingly gave this to Him to resolve. He resolved it by giving me His validity.

Purely by providence I ended up in a Sunday service, far from home. A place where nobody knew me or my history, or the call. A service where the worship of God was so simple, yet so reverently tangible, but also where the service belongs to the Spirit and the people are given to prayer and seeking. Hearing from God together, ministering to each other in song, in encouragement and the like. They didn't come to check their time, it was one of those services that if it ends it ends, but nothing unorganized or disorderly.
I came to the service not expecting God to answer this particular question this day, but deep down I also knew that eventually He would resolve it for me.

It was beautiful, two things happened for me that day. I previously had taken a step of faith on a decision but had started doubting. But through the ministry of the Word in Ruth, that particular doubt was dispelled. Secondly one of the members with a prophetic gift called me and with the leadership (of a church I do not know). Acknowledged that God wants to ordain me into ministry. They anointed me with oil, prayed for me and sent me to do the Lord's work. (after the service I asked how they knew they needed to do this, very simply as if it's a daily occurrence I was told, I was seen in a vision and it was something they had to do otherwise they would be walking in obedience).

Later I was ordained formally in my own church. I learnt some very important truths from the experience.

God does the ordination, it is not mans work.
He will call who he wants.
It is a sacred work and a sacred call.
It shouldn't be taken lightly.
The church body is bigger than our own congregations, because His work is bigger.
Our arguments is not with men or women, it's with Him, because its His work and his prerogative.
At some point I learnt that I cannot contend with the Spirit. He will wìn and His work will continue regardless.

 

[Paidiske]

At some point I learnt that I cannot contend with the Spirit. He will wìn and His work will continue regardless.

I may have told this story on CF before, I'm not sure now. But just before I went to selection conference (part of the process for discerning vocation to ordination in my tradition), I went on retreat at a convent near me. I shared with the sisters why I was there, and one of them said to me that she thought I was very brave. "Not brave at all, sister," I said. "I've thought long and hard about how big the fish in the other direction is!"

 

[Clare73]

Not at all; you've dismissed my posts, and my questions, before.

Tell me, why do you want me to write an exegesis?
Do you want to learn, or know what the text says? Do you not understand it? Are you open to the possibility that you may learn something?
Or do you want me to read this passage (as if I haven't done so before), suddenly see something, or understand it and come around to your way of thinking?

If you can honestly say it's the first; you have not seen any exegesis on this passage before and you want to know what it really says - then I'll address that.
But if I end up writing quite a long post just for you to dismiss it, argue about it and say that I'm trying to justify my position, or get around the "clear principle" - I'm not interested.

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 2:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.
2) How many women pastors do we see in the history of the first 1800+ years of the church?

 

[Strong in Him]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 12:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

I note the inability to answer my questions so you just repeat your previous statements.

 

[Clare73]

Hey Clare

There is quite a few material available for the ordination of women prior to the 1800's.

2)If you read the books for the ordination of women and not just those against. You'll see the evidence is available. "The hidden history of women's ordination" by Gary Macy is but one (a very scholarly Catholic Writing). Another writing is "How the subjugation of women became gospel truth" by Beth Barr. Check out the references cited. Both of them have the background of a historian.

Thanks, but in light of 1 Tim 2:12-14, I need Biblical evidence.

1)There are others but as a minimum, below is a summary from Duvall and Hays on how to discover the theological principle.
The biblical principle should
1. be timeless and not tied to a specific situation.
2. not be culturally bound.
3. correspond to the teaching of the rest of Scripture.
4.be relevant to both ancient and modern audiences.
5. be reflected in the text.

It has to as a minimum meet the above criteria otherwise the text has not been handled correctly.

The above is from "Grasping Gods Word" a very easy to read book on exegeting the biblical text.

@Strong in Him is correct. You have to come to the text open-minded, (as one poster said here on CF years ago, but not so open-minded that your brains fall out). Meaning you have to come willing to grappling with uncomfortable truths, until you are fully persuaded.

I'll share from my own experience.

I was in a similar space with my own ordination. I understood and could make all the arguments for why a woman should be ordained into ministry. But I also knew the arguments against. My pastor and the congregation recognized the call and was waiting for my agreement, but I was reluctant (I deliberately delayed). I realised later that my reluctance was because of fear. I knew it would be difficult, that opposition would come. But God knew my heart, my desires and fears and I willingly gave this to Him to resolve. He resolved it by giving me His validity.

Purely by providence I ended up in a Sunday service, far from home. A place where nobody knew me or my history, or the call. A service where the worship of God was so simple, yet so reverently tangible, but also where the service belongs to the Spirit and the people are given to prayer and seeking. Hearing from God together, ministering to each other in song, in encouragement and the like. They didn't come to check their time, it was one of those services that if it ends it ends, but nothing unorganized or disorderly.
I came to the service not expecting God to answer this particular question this day, but deep down I also knew that eventually He would resolve it for me.

It was beautiful, two things happened for me that day. I previously had taken a step of faith on a decision but had started doubting. But through the ministry of the Word in Ruth, that particular doubt was dispelled. Secondly one of the members with a prophetic gift called me and with the leadership (of a church I do not know). Acknowledged that God wants to ordain me into ministry. They anointed me with oil, prayed for me and sent me to do the Lord's work. (after the service I asked how they knew they needed to do this, very simply as if it's a daily occurrence I was told, I was seen in a vision and it was something they had to do otherwise they would be walking in obedience).

Later I was ordained formally in my own church. I learnt some very important truths from the experience.

God does the ordination, it is not mans work.
He will call who he wants.
It is a sacred work and a sacred call.
It shouldn't be taken lightly.
The church body is bigger than our own congregations, because His work is bigger.
Our arguments is not with men or women, it's with Him, because its His work and his prerogative.
At some point I learnt that I cannot contend with the Spirit. He will wìn and His work will continue regardless.

 

[Clare73]

1) I note the avoidance of the clear principle (1 Tim 2:13-14) on which the prohibition is based.

I note the inability to answer my questions so you just repeat your previous statements.

The prinicple of 1 Tim 2:13-14 remains unaddressed by you.

 

[Strong in Him]

The prinicple of 1 Tim 2:13-14 remains unaddressed by you.

Answer my questions then, and I'll address it.

Why do you want me to write an exegesis on this passage?
If I address this "principle" - and you haven't proved that it is one - and it disagrees with your position, are you prepared to reconsider or will you just reject my post?

 

[Strong in Him]

Thanks, but in light of 1 Tim 2:12-14, I need Biblical evidence.

What do you need Biblical evidence of?
A female leader? Deborah; Judges 4:4-5
A man being told, by God, to listen to his wife? Abraham; Genesis 21:12.
A woman prophesying? Miriam, Exodus 15:20; Deborah, Judges 4:6-10; Huldah, 2 Kings 22:15-20; Isaiah's wife. Isaiah 8:3
That women were allowed to prophesy? 1 Corinthians 11:5.
A woman telling people about Jesus? John 4:28-29; John 20: 18.
A woman teaching about Jesus? Acts 18:26.
Women helping Paul in the work of the Gospel? Romans 16:1-12.